Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 08:24 AM Sep 2012

UK : Sarah Catt jailed for full-term abortion of baby

Source: BBC News

A woman who aborted her own baby in the final phase of her pregnancy has been jailed for eight years.

Sarah Louise Catt, 35, of North Yorkshire, took a drug when she was full term, 39 weeks pregnant, to cause an early delivery.

She claimed the boy was stillborn and that she buried his body, but no evidence of the child was ever found.

Catt made a "deliberate and calculated decision" to end her pregnancy, a Leeds Crown Court judge said.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-19621675

27 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
UK : Sarah Catt jailed for full-term abortion of baby (Original Post) dipsydoodle Sep 2012 OP
She must have been so very desperate to resort to this. :-( secondwind Sep 2012 #1
Indeed. Sucks when you are trying to hide an affair from your spouse. msanthrope Sep 2012 #2
Only if it took a breath Scairp Sep 2012 #21
That is NOT the rule in Britain, in most states and under the Common Law. happyslug Sep 2012 #22
I know all about this Scairp Sep 2012 #23
So what the difference, if a wife kills her husband, under the Common Law, it was NOT Murder. happyslug Sep 2012 #27
Actually if you read her history, the word would be disturbed and not deperate Marrah_G Sep 2012 #17
She is a murderer. emilyg Sep 2012 #18
Yea, well, she should have been desperate at 6 weeks bitchkitty Sep 2012 #25
Even at 39 weeks, the baby is viable Horse with no Name Sep 2012 #3
I think they charged her with 'abortion' because that was her intent--not to induce labor, but to msanthrope Sep 2012 #5
I just hate to see this used as a prop for the "late term abortion" crowd Horse with no Name Sep 2012 #7
I agree, but I think what she did, plus the evidence available to the prosecution, msanthrope Sep 2012 #10
The wording is UK terminology. dipsydoodle Sep 2012 #19
sounds like a deeply disturbed woman with an equally disturbed husband. mopinko Sep 2012 #4
Or just plain evil. nt msanthrope Sep 2012 #6
I believe the term "evil" usually refers to behavior that can be traced directly to mental illness slackmaster Sep 2012 #8
agree. mopinko Sep 2012 #9
I wish evil, and evil people, were rare. nt msanthrope Sep 2012 #11
... this is often a fine line, e.g., extreme hardcore right-wingers. nt JudyM Sep 2012 #20
I'm pro-choice, but this shows why some restrictions on abortion are needed. Nye Bevan Sep 2012 #12
abortion doesn't seem fitting here my son was born at 37 weeks azurnoir Sep 2012 #13
Produce the baby's body? mikki35 Sep 2012 #15
+1. She induced labor to have the child while her husband was away. gkhouston Sep 2012 #24
I don't believe the baby was stillborn. Sound fishy. adigal Sep 2012 #14
Her history sounds like someone with some severe mental illnesses Marrah_G Sep 2012 #16
Did a search and found this post, was about to post it myself. moriah Sep 2012 #26
 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
2. Indeed. Sucks when you are trying to hide an affair from your spouse.
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 09:56 AM
Sep 2012

She's a murderer. Read the while article....it's disgusting.

Scairp

(2,749 posts)
21. Only if it took a breath
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 03:29 PM
Sep 2012

If it was stillborn then I don't know what the charge would be, except I don't understand why she waited until it was viable when she could have gotten a legal abortion months ago. If they can't find the body they have no way of knowing the cause of death.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
22. That is NOT the rule in Britain, in most states and under the Common Law.
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 04:12 PM
Sep 2012

Under the Common Law (Which Followed Catholic Rules of the Middle ages, rules that only changed in 1869) is that a fetus is treated as a Human Being once it had "Quickened".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quickening

Now, to kill a Child that was NOT yet born, but had Quicken was considered Manslaughter (Through William Blackstone calls it a Misdemeanor).

Quickening took place at about 18-20 weeks (out of a 40 week pregnancy, i.e the Second and third trimester, please note under Medical rules the pregnancy is dated from the woman's last period, which is about two weeks before she would have ovulated and became pregnant, thus you see a lot of time period that vary about two weeks as people confuse the "start" of the pregnancy).

While Blackstone calls killing a Fetus that had Quicken a misdemeanor, the more accurate rule is it was Murder if done in the last trimester, but a lesser crime in the Second Trimester and NOT a crime if done in the first trimester. This was the Catholic Rule prior to 1869, defined by St Augustine who seems to have developed the rule from both Jewish sources in the Old Testament AND Aristotle who had opine that the start of life was when the Child had Quickened not when it was born.

The still born rule had to do with a woman's rights to her own property. If a child was born, alive, to a couple, the husband obtained complete use of his wife's estate for the rest of his life, even if the child later died. If no child was born alive, when the wife died her property went to her heirs and her husband obtain nothing. The definition of a live birth was if the child cried. Thus Doctors and midwives would spank the child to produce a cry, thus showing that the child was born alive. in an age with a high infant mortality rate. I bring this up for it had nothing to do with killing a child. If the Child would have been born alive EXCEPT for the killing of the child, it was treated as if born alive. This situation only occurred when they was no outside forces causing the death of a new born baby except for natural causes.

Scairp

(2,749 posts)
23. I know all about this
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 10:17 PM
Sep 2012

I'm not an idiot. They also relied on the woman to say when she felt movement so if she didn't want it she could lie and say there hadn't been any as yet. But let's deal with the 21st century. In New York for example, if it takes one breathe it is considered born alive and anyone who fails to keep it that way could be charged with manslaughter, murder if they actively do something to kill it such as smothering or abandoning it to die outside in a dumpster or something. If a fetus is born and fails to take a breathe on it's own it's stillborn. If the mother/parents fail to report the death they are usually charged with some kind of abuse of a corpse or failure to report it, not sure the legalities but it isn't murder or manslaughter if the baby never took a breathe.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
27. So what the difference, if a wife kills her husband, under the Common Law, it was NOT Murder.
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 02:40 PM
Sep 2012

Last edited Wed Sep 19, 2012, 04:13 PM - Edit history (3)

When a wife, or a child or a servant killed their Husband/Parent/Master, under the common law that was the crime known as "Petit Treason" (as oppose to "High Treason" when someone plotted against his king, or later his or her state or the Federal Government). The crime was NOT the felony of Murder. The punishment was the same for Murder or Petit Treason, the killer was executed, the only difference, under the Common Law, was who ended up with the property of the killer after the execution. Murder, being a Felony, the property went to the Mesne Lord of the killer (After one year, during that year the property remained in the hands of the King), in Petit Treason cases, being "Treason" NOT a Felony, the property went PERMANENTLY to the King.

In most of England the Mense Lord and the King were the same, thus it made no difference if the killer was charged with Murder or Petit Treason, but sometimes it was different. The last case I know of Petit Treason was in the early 1700s in Massachusetts. Given the nature of Massachusetts being at the time a Royal Colony, the Mesne Lord was viewed as the Colony itself represented by its colonial assembly. The Royal Governor, on the other hand, was the agent of the King. Thus the Governor wanted to try the Murderer for Petit Treason, for then the Governor ended up with her property (which she inherited from the husband she had killed) instead of the property going to the Colonial Assembly. Thus unless there was a difference in who received the property of the accused, the punishment for Murder and Petit Treason was the same.

Similar rules applied to the killing of a child in the last trimester, may NOT have been technically murder, under the common law, but the punishment was the same except who received the property of the killer. Blackstone calls it a misdemeanor, thus no permanent forfeiture took place i.e. her husband or other heir received her property instead of her Mesne Lord or the King (In the cases of Misdemeanors, except for the year AFTER the conviction and execution, when the Mesne Lord had full use of the property of the killer, the killer's heirs received her property).

As to fetuses and the law today, 38 states have passed laws defining killing a fetus as murder or manslaughter:
http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx

New York State law on this is a mess, let me quote the National Right to life group:

http://www.nrlc.org/Unborn_Victims/Statehomicidelaws092302.html

New York: Under New York statutory law, the killing of an "unborn child" after twenty-four weeks of pregnancy is homicide. N.Y. Pen. Law § 125.00 (McKinney 1998). But under a separate statutory provision, a "person" that is the victim of a homicide is statutorily defined as a "human being who has been born and is alive." N.Y. Pen. Law § 125.05 (McKinney 1998). See People v. Joseph, 130 Misc. 2d 377, 496 N.Y.S.2d 328 (County Court 1985); In re Gloria C., 124 Misc.2d 313, 476 N.Y.S.2d 991 (N.Y. Fam. Ct. 1984); People v. Vercelletto, 514 N.Y.S.2d 177 (Co. Ct. 1987).

http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article125.htm

And it is a mess in New York. §125 clearly states the following:
S 125.00 Homicide defined.
Homicide means conduct which causes the death of a person or an unborn child with which a female has been pregnant for more than twenty-four weeks under circumstances constituting murder, manslaughter in the first degree, manslaughter in the second degree, criminally negligent homicide, abortion in the first degree or self-abortion in the first degree.


§ 125 then goes on and defines "Person" as follows:

S 125.05 Homicide, abortion and related offenses; definitions of terms.
The following definitions are applicable to this article:
1. "Person," when referring to the victim of a homicide, means a human
being who has been born and is alive.


Then § 125 goes on to define the various types of Homicides and uses the term "Person" only as to the victim when those types of homicides are defined. My position would be that since the term "person" is defined AND used in defining the various types of Homicides, then the killing of an unborn child is NOT covered by those definitions of various homicides for the term "Unborn Child" is NOT used (or that the term "Person" was used, when another term could have been used IF the law was to cover such unborn Children&quot . The problem is then that leaves it up to the Courts to define what was meant when the Legislature put those words into § 125 and that opens the possibility of the courts citing § 125 to extend those sections to cover a unborn child. As I said above, the Common Law did include the killing of unborn third trimester fetuses (Through NOT a Murder) and the rule is, unless it is clear that the Common Law was repealed by the Statute in question, the Common Law Rule still applies.

I am NOT familiar with how New York Courts have addressed this conflict, I suspect they have done what courts do in such cases, avoid making a decision if at all possible. i.e. in some plea bargain, give up the charge relating to killing the fetus in exchange for the defendant to plea guilty to some lesser charge related to the same attack on the woman (i.e. Give up on a Murder Charge for Killing the Fetus, in exchange for a guilty plea of aggravated assault on the mother).

This position is supported by People v. Vercelletto, 135 Misc. 2d 40 where the court dismissed Vehicular Homicide charges against a Defendant when the Defendant had caused an accident hitting a woman, caused her to miscarriage and lose her fetus of seven months at the same time of the accident due to the use of the Word "Person" in defining who a victim of various homicides could be, On the other hand the Court held that the injury that caused the miscarriage was a serious physical injury to the woman (Who technically suffered no other injury) and thus meet the definition of Vehicular assault under New York Criminal Code for it only used the term "Person" as to the person injured, i.e. the expected mother, not the unborn child. The court did make the following footnote:

Confronted with similar statutes in criminal cases an overwhelming number of sister States have likewise taken the position that is not within judicial province, under the guise of interpretation, to encompass within the various statutory definitions of "person" an unborn fetus unless specifically included by the Legislature. ( Meadows v State, Ark , 722 SW2d 584; Keeler v Superior Ct., 2 Cal 3d 619, 470 P2d 617; State v Gonzalez, 467 So 2d 723 [Fla App 1985]; People v Greer, 79 Ill 2d 103, 402 NE2d 203 [1980]; Hollis v Commonwealth, 652 SW2d 61 [Ky 1983]; State v Brown, 378 So 2d 916 [La 1979]; People v Guthrie, 97 Mich App 226, 293 NW2d 775 [1980]; see, State v Anonymous, 40 Conn Supp 498, 516 A2d 156, for further citations.) * Two States have reached a contrary result. Both Massachusetts and South Carolina are so-called common-law States. The courts in both States took the position that, based on medical technology, they could change the law; and they both based their decisions in part on developments in each State in civil law tort liability involving a fetal death. (Commonwealth v Cass, 392 Mass 799, 467 NE2d 1324 [1984]; State v Horne, 282 SC 444, 319 SE2d 703 [1984].) Even in the two minority jurisdictions, due process considerations dictated that the interpretations enlarging common-law standards could not be applied retroactively but could only be applied prospectively. While New York civil law recognizes that an infant injured in utero by the tort of another should when born alive be allowed to sue ( Woods v Lancet, 303 NY 349), the death of an unborn child will not support an action for wrongful death. ( Endresz v Friedberg, 24 NY2d 478.)


Here is a Washington University Law Review (Out of the State of Washington) talking about killing of Fetus:
http://lawreview.wustl.edu/inprint/80-4/Cook_Note_book_pages.pdf

Please note, the above Law Review, states it was NOT a crime under the Common Law to kill a Fetus, but then in a footnote calls it a "Misprison" not Murder, which is correct, but Misprison was and is a CRIME just NOT a Felony which is the position Blackstone took.

Just a comment, that killing of a Fetus, by anyone other then its mother, was actionable under the Common Law, in Most states today through maybe not New York State.

More on Misprison, which is generally the concealment of a Felony:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misprision
Side Comment in regards to Killing a Spouse under the common law, it was NOT Murder:

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
17. Actually if you read her history, the word would be disturbed and not deperate
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 01:10 PM
Sep 2012

I don't know what the UK penal system is like, but I hope it is better then ours and that she can get some help for her issues.

bitchkitty

(7,349 posts)
25. Yea, well, she should have been desperate at 6 weeks
Tue Sep 18, 2012, 07:13 AM
Sep 2012

when she could have had a legal abortion.

I have no sympathy for this monster.

Horse with no Name

(33,956 posts)
3. Even at 39 weeks, the baby is viable
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 10:06 AM
Sep 2012

She induced labor....she didn't have an "abortion" or terminate the pregnancy. She gave birth which is the natural progression and women every single day are induced at 39 weeks.

Women self-induce labor here all of the time...whether it is by nipple stimulation, failing to follow doctor's orders, taking castor oil or other old wives remedies.

They need to take the language out of this and call it infanticide--but it definitely is NOT abortion.


The question needs to be is WHAT happened after the birth of the child--my guess is that she murdered it. If she produced the body, it is very easy to tell if that child took a breath or not.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
5. I think they charged her with 'abortion' because that was her intent--not to induce labor, but to
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 10:30 AM
Sep 2012

kill and expel the fetus past the legal limit.

Infanticide generally involves a live birth--since there is no body, you could not have proven that.

Because there is no body to autopsy, the prosecutors are limited in what they can charge.

Horse with no Name

(33,956 posts)
7. I just hate to see this used as a prop for the "late term abortion" crowd
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 10:44 AM
Sep 2012

because it most definitely was not.

The baby was term.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
10. I agree, but I think what she did, plus the evidence available to the prosecution,
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 11:02 AM
Sep 2012

warrants that charge---can't prove infanticide or murder without a body, or, is amazingly tough to.

mopinko

(70,090 posts)
4. sounds like a deeply disturbed woman with an equally disturbed husband.
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 10:10 AM
Sep 2012

how does one conceal 2 pregnancies from one's spouse? some sort of serious disconnect there.

 

slackmaster

(60,567 posts)
8. I believe the term "evil" usually refers to behavior that can be traced directly to mental illness
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 10:46 AM
Sep 2012

Real evil exists, but it's quite rare IMO.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
12. I'm pro-choice, but this shows why some restrictions on abortion are needed.
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 12:27 PM
Sep 2012

An early term abortion is just removing a few cells, and should be totally unrestricted.

But going online and ordering an abortion-inducing drug from India to kill a full-term baby is infanticide.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
13. abortion doesn't seem fitting here my son was born at 37 weeks
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 12:32 PM
Sep 2012

weighed 7lbs 3 oz did not spend a moment in an incubator and went home 3 days after he was born, she needs to give where the babies body is really located

mikki35

(111 posts)
15. Produce the baby's body?
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 01:02 PM
Sep 2012

My guess is she absolutely will never do that, because it would show that the baby was killed after birth. Think about it - it's the only reason she would do this. If the baby was stillborn, there would be zero signs of trauma and would very much bolster her defense. While this is pure conjecture, it makes sense.

gkhouston

(21,642 posts)
24. +1. She induced labor to have the child while her husband was away.
Tue Sep 18, 2012, 01:41 AM
Sep 2012

I'm not seeing any reason to think the child would have been stillborn or would have come to harm by being born a week early. I suspect she smothered the poor thing after it was born.

moriah

(8,311 posts)
26. Did a search and found this post, was about to post it myself.
Wed Sep 19, 2012, 02:50 AM
Sep 2012

IMHO, in these situations.... if the child is healthy and viable, at 39 weeks *many* women are medically induced.

There is no reason that she should not have been allowed to LEGALLY go to an OB/GYN, request a Pitocin induction, and then give the child up for adoption if she didn't want to raise it.

I imagine the reason they're giving her 8 years is that she has still refused to admit where she buried the body -- not allowing the police or medical examiners to determine if the child was born alive and strangled/smothered/otherwise killed, or truly stillborn. I don't know if the UK has "safe haven" laws like the US does for women who give birth but decide they want to anonymously give their child up for adoption, but I feel very strongly that those laws SHOULD exist.

Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»UK : Sarah Catt jailed fo...