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Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin

(108,072 posts)
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 03:04 PM Jan 2020

Kobe Bryant helicopter crash investigators to review records, fog conditions, experts say

Source: USA Today

The federal investigation of the helicopter crash that killed Kobe Bryant and eight others began to unfold Monday as experts examined the chopper's maintenance history and questioned why the pilot flew in foggy conditions.

Visibility Sunday morning was so poor that the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Office and Police Department grounded their choppers. It's unclear if weather played a role in the crash.

Low clouds and fog were in the area at the time of the crash, the Weather Channel said.


When the helicopter took off from John Wayne Airport at 9:06 a.m. Sunday, visibility on the ground was only about 3 or 4 miles, and the lowest overcast cloud layer was only 1,000 to 1,500 feet above ground, according to weather.com meteorologist Brian Donegan.


Read more: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/kobe-bryant-helicopter-crash-investigators-to-review-records-fog-conditions-experts-say/ar-BBZmnZl?li=BBnb7Kz

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Kobe Bryant helicopter crash investigators to review records, fog conditions, experts say (Original Post) Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Jan 2020 OP
did Kobe have an IFR ticket? PerceptionManagement Jan 2020 #1
No. I think the pilot must not have been IFR rated. mnhtnbb Jan 2020 #3
in the event of unintentional IMC... PerceptionManagement Jan 2020 #11
yes, but I listened to the air traffic interactions lapfog_1 Jan 2020 #13
Yes, he did. SeattleVet Jan 2020 #4
It's also very common for helicopters to fly VFR under low ceilings Major Nikon Jan 2020 #14
The copter really should've waited until the fog burned off. sakabatou Jan 2020 #2
It sounds as if the helicopter pilot was flying under a special VFR clearance. LastLiberal in PalmSprings Jan 2020 #5
Other reports Sgent Jan 2020 #8
You can switch from VFR to IFR at any time. LastLiberal in PalmSprings Jan 2020 #10
This is from Slate... jmowreader Jan 2020 #6
Wow. That's sad. :( C Moon Jan 2020 #7
There will be lawsuits. milestogo Jan 2020 #9
Seems like a tragic case of flying VFR maxrandb Jan 2020 #12

mnhtnbb

(31,397 posts)
3. No. I think the pilot must not have been IFR rated.
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 03:30 PM
Jan 2020

He wasn't flying IFR. He was flying on a Special VFR clearance.

This feels like it is reminiscent of the JFK, Jr. tragedy.

11. in the event of unintentional IMC...
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 10:53 PM
Jan 2020

...turn away from known or unknown terrain elevations, climb at Vx and contact approach for an IFR pickup.

I'm guessing the pilot lost SA (maybe panicked a little if he was a VFR only pilot) and turned into the hill, and not towards the sea. Rookie mistake.

lapfog_1

(29,213 posts)
13. yes, but I listened to the air traffic interactions
Tue Jan 28, 2020, 12:22 AM
Jan 2020

and they were flying special VFR... which was constantly being asked about as they transitioned from one air traffic center to the next.

I'm not a pilot, but my dad was and I thought the interactions with the ATC were a bit odd... although no one raised an alarm with the helicopter

SeattleVet

(5,477 posts)
4. Yes, he did.
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 03:39 PM
Jan 2020

He was extremely experienced - he was also a certified flight instructor and ground school instructor with an excellent reputation as a pilot.

5. It sounds as if the helicopter pilot was flying under a special VFR clearance.
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 04:33 PM
Jan 2020
Special VFR (Visual Flight Rules) allow a pilot to fly into airspace where weather doesn't meet normal VFR requirements.

Here's the important part: the pilot must request special VFR clearance; it cannot be solicited by the FAA, i.e., the controller can't ask the pilot, "Would you like to continue special VFR?" The FAA's liability in this matter may be determined by how the pilot ended up in such bad weather.

My personal experience with this was when I flew an instrument approach into Myrtle Beach Airport in South Carolina while I was in law school. While it was good when we left Columbia, the weather had suddenly dropped below VFR minimums -- in fact, it was close to minimums for the approach I was flying -- and I was in the clouds the last five minutes of the flight. The tops of the cloud deck was reasonably high -- 1,500 or 2,000 feet -- but for the last part of flight the only thing visible was the ground directly below us, and then intermediately.

As we got near the airport I heard another airplane (a twin-engine King Air, it turned out) switch over to our frequency. A minute or so late I was handed off to approach control and made an uneventful instrument approach, breaking out from the bottom of the clouds at about 600 feet, well above instrument approach minimums. We touched down, parked the airplane and enjoyed the next two days at the beach.

I finished law school, then worked for a judge for awhile, and next joined a law firm in Charleston, SC. One of the first cases I worked on involved that very same King Air. It turns out the pilot was not instrument rated (this is not uncommon for doctors, who can afford a much bigger airplane than their training, skill and flight currency levels safely allow). According to the ATC transcript the controller said, "Would you like to continue on special VFR?" The pilot said yes and then entered the clouds, lost control, and flew into the ground just minutes after I had landed.

By suggesting special VFR the FAA controller violated the Federal Aviation Regulations.

Does that mean you should never request a special VFR clearance? No. If you are intimately familiar with the area around the airport, and know and can identify the landmarks (highways, schools, malls, etc.) leading you there, special VFR can be a useful option.

The problem is that if the weather crumps totally and you lose sight of the land you can become disoriented, either in aircraft attitude or position over the ground, or both. This can happen to the most experienced pilot, which I assume the case was here. Flying below the radar just above the hills could have turned out to be the worst place to be.

Why didn't the pilot just climb to a safe altitude, even if it meant flying through the clouds and into controlled airspace? Here's where logic doesn't apply, but psychology does. The FAA has determined that many accidents are caused by "get-home-itis." The pilot becomes so focused on getting to his destination that he is able to talk himself into a situation where he wouldn't fly if he had had a chance to sit down and dispassionately evaluate it, like I'm doing here. Real time decision making is different than post-incident hangar flying.

Clouds usually don't drop suddenly; the bottoms get a little lower, then lower, then lower. The appearance of fog can happen quickly, however, since it results when the difference between the air temperature and dew point (the temperature that determines how much moisture the air is able to hold) approaches two degrees.

Also, in many places land doesn't suddenly increase in elevation; sometimes there's a slow -- perhaps imperceptible -- rise beneath the flight path.

My guess is that the highly trained and competent helicopter pilot flew a perfectly good airplane into the ground because he got lured by a special VFR clearance, bad terrain, and deteriorating weather conditions -- and maybe a little overconfidence.

That's just my best guess based on what's been reported thus far -- your mileage may vary.

Sgent

(5,857 posts)
8. Other reports
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 07:53 PM
Jan 2020

have indicated the pilot was an experienced pilot and flight instructor with an IFR ticket. The helo in question also comes from the factory as IFR capable (although it may not have been updated). Is it possible (I don't know) to switch from VFR to IFR when encountering unexpected IMC?

10. You can switch from VFR to IFR at any time.
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 09:10 PM
Jan 2020

You can also go the other way and cancel IFR while enroute, so long as weather conditions permit. The main purpose of flight rules is to get you from Point A to Point B safely.

For example, say the weather at your departure point is lousy, you can file an IFR flight plan to get out of the area and then cancel it once you're in the clear and fly VFR the rest of the way.

The biggest difference between an IFR flight plan and a VFR flight plan is that if you're flying IFR you have to do what ATC tells you to. It usually involves radar, although not always -- a flight from San Francisco to Hawaii is IFR, but position is tracked via reports from the aircraft using a long range radio (they might use satellite radio now -- it's been a long time since I flew as an Air Force navigator). A VFR flight plan is basically a search-and-rescue starting point in case you don't arrive at the destination and close the plan out.

jmowreader

(50,561 posts)
6. This is from Slate...
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 06:19 PM
Jan 2020
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/01/sikorsky-s76-helicopter-kobe-bryant.html

L.A. weather was extremely foggy Sunday morning, and law enforcement sources tell us even LAPD air support was grounded because of it. Flight tracker data shows Kobe’s chopper appeared to first encounter weather issues as it was above the L.A. Zoo. It circled that area at least 6 times at a very low altitude—around 875 feet—perhaps waiting for the fog to clear. We know the pilot contacted the control tower at Burbank Airport around 9:30 AM PT, and the tower was aware the pilot had been circling for about 15 minutes. The pilot eventually headed north along the 118 freeway before turning to the west, and started following above the 101 freeway around Woodland Hills, CA. At around 9:40 AM they encounter more weather—as in seriously heavy fog—and the chopper turned south. This was critical, because they turned toward a mountainous area. The pilot suddenly and rapidly climbed from about 1200 feet up to 2000 feet. However, moments later—around 9:45 AM—they flew into a mountain at 1700 feet. Flight tracker data shows they were flying at about 161 knots.


The NTSB is very professional, thorough and methodical, which you'd have to be to not just rubber-stamp this as "VFR into Instrument Meteorological Conditions."

Having said that, an S-76 is an excellent helicopter.
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