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Mon Apr 20, 2020, 03:20 AM

Anger in Sweden as elderly pay price for coronavirus strategy

Source: The Guardian

Last week, as figures released by the Public Health Agency of Sweden indicated that 1,333 people had now died of coronavirus, the country’s normally unflappable state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell admitted that the situation in care homes was worrying.

Its advice to the care workers and nurses looking after older people such as Bondesson’s 69-year-old mother is that they should not wear protective masks or use other protective equipment unless they are dealing with a resident in the home they have reason to suspect is infected.

“The worst thing is that it is us, the staff, who are taking the infection in to the elderly,” complained one nurse to Swedish public broadcaster SVT. “It’s unbelievable that more of them haven’t been infected. It’s a scandal.”

Tegnell’s colleague AnnaSara Carnahan on Friday told Sveriges Radio that the number of deaths reported from old people’s homes was “probably an underestimate”, as regional health infectious diseases units were reporting that many elderly who died were not being tested.

Read more: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/19/anger-in-sweden-as-elderly-pay-price-for-coronavirus-strategy



They act like there is no such thing as asymptomatic spread. Restaurants and bars are open and the nursing home staff are not wearing PPE to protect the patients. They might as well just wheel the elderly into the bars and skip the middleman.

Unbelievable.

57 replies, 4939 views

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Arrow 57 replies Author Time Post
Reply Anger in Sweden as elderly pay price for coronavirus strategy (Original post)
SunSeeker Apr 2020 OP
Cha Apr 2020 #1
SunSeeker Apr 2020 #3
DarthDem Apr 2020 #4
Cha Apr 2020 #5
SunSeeker Apr 2020 #6
Cha Apr 2020 #9
SunSeeker Apr 2020 #28
aggiesal Apr 2020 #17
SunSeeker Apr 2020 #29
aggiesal Apr 2020 #30
SunSeeker Apr 2020 #31
katmondoo Apr 2020 #10
Cha Apr 2020 #11
Worried2020 Apr 2020 #15
Cha Apr 2020 #39
Worried2020 Apr 2020 #44
Cha Apr 2020 #49
Worried2020 Apr 2020 #55
Cha Apr 2020 #57
Politicub Apr 2020 #34
w0nderer Apr 2020 #2
beachbumbob Apr 2020 #7
Sir Normie Apr 2020 #8
McCamy Taylor Apr 2020 #12
IronLionZion Apr 2020 #13
zonkers Apr 2020 #14
RobinA Apr 2020 #16
zonkers Apr 2020 #22
Steelrolled Apr 2020 #18
LiberalLovinLug Apr 2020 #19
Steelrolled Apr 2020 #20
LiberalLovinLug Apr 2020 #21
ehrnst Apr 2020 #26
SunSeeker Apr 2020 #32
ehrnst Apr 2020 #33
LiberalLovinLug Apr 2020 #35
ehrnst Apr 2020 #36
LiberalLovinLug Apr 2020 #37
ehrnst Apr 2020 #38
LiberalLovinLug Apr 2020 #46
ehrnst Apr 2020 #47
LiberalLovinLug Apr 2020 #50
ehrnst Apr 2020 #53
TexasTowelie Apr 2020 #48
ehrnst Apr 2020 #54
George II Apr 2020 #40
ehrnst Apr 2020 #43
Demsrule86 Apr 2020 #23
Steelrolled Apr 2020 #25
NickB79 Apr 2020 #27
BlueIdaho Apr 2020 #24
rockfordfile Apr 2020 #51
appalachiablue Apr 2020 #41
SunSeeker Apr 2020 #42
appalachiablue Apr 2020 #45
JustABozoOnThisBus Apr 2020 #52
SunSeeker Apr 2020 #56

Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 03:49 AM

1. Good god.. don't they know what's going on in the

Last edited Mon Apr 20, 2020, 04:51 AM - Edit history (1)

rest of the world and the history of the "Spanish" flu Pandemic in 1918?!

The 'Spanish' flu outbreak of 1918 is playing out just like 'reopen' protesters are in 2020: report

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100213316447

ETA~1918 instead of 2018.. I have to stop doing that!!

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Response to Cha (Reply #1)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 04:24 AM

3. Thanks for the link. Yes, it looks like we're repeating history.

Sadly.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #3)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 04:35 AM

4. Those who fail to learn,

And all that. Unfortunately, looks like they're trying to take the rest of us along for the ride. Sigh.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #3)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 04:50 AM

5. And, the 1918 one was personal for me..

My paternal Grandfather passed on from it in 1919. He was working at a train station in a small Colorado town. My dad was 2 years old and my grandmother was heartbroken.

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Response to Cha (Reply #5)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 05:27 AM

6. Oh wow. Yes, I heard the second wave in the winter of 1919 killed more.

I guess the first wave in 1918 was just a warm up. That pandemic got so many young people. Your poor grandmother, suddenly left alone with a 2 year old. It's hard enough being a single mom now, but back then, they'd just send you to a Poor House, there was no safety net.

I fear people still aren't taking this one seriously because they think it only kills the elderly or those already weakened by other serious ailments. And so many people just don't give a shit about the weak or elderly. But, like in Sweden, the elderly are only 30% of the dead. And many who died never had underlying health issues.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #6)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 06:18 AM

9. My grandmother was

fortunate in that she lived in a small town and had a support group of family and friends to care for my dad while she worked as a secretary at the courthouse.. always a go getter.

I'm reading lots of people aren't taking it seriously.. like they're playing Russian roulette with their lives.

We are definitely taking it seriously over here.. I took the bus to Kapaa today to shop at Hoku.. everybody had on masks and gloves. I saw 3 people with N95 masks. I had not seen any before then. And, had just looked them up online before I went.. to see what they were about.

The bus is free and the Driver handed out an orange bandana to a person who got on that didn't have a mask. The driver said.. "now put it on". There was more where that came from.

I love it! Only essential travel.. for groceries, meds, and work.

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Response to Cha (Reply #9)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 08:17 PM

28. Glad folks in Kapaa are taking it seriously. Good for that bus driver!

And your mom sounds like she was an amazing woman!

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #6)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 11:54 AM

17. I agree that people are not taking it serious enough ...

I live in San Diego County ...

The zip code I live in has the 2nd highest number of CoronaVirus cases in the county.
The way it's going, it will soon be #1 zip code in the county.

I don't shop in my zip code area anymore.
I drive 30 minutes north, where the numbers are a lot less and increasing at a slower rate
and everyone is wearing a mask.

On my way home, I drove past the Costco & Walmart that are right next to each other
in my zip code and counted 14 people without masks.

The line trying to get into CostCo, in my zip code, had to be at least 250 yards long.
The Costco 30 miles away, had no line and basically empty.
The difference between one zip code having 10 cases and the other having 94 cases.

On Friday night, when I went out to pull the trash cans back off the streets,
I can hear a party going on. All the street parking spaces were taken.
My neighbors were throwing a party, no masks and no social distancing.

People don't seem to care that this is a national security issue.
It’s costing the country trillions of dollars and lives ...
as well as people having to stay quarantined longer and out of work.

What selfish people!

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Response to aggiesal (Reply #17)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 08:18 PM

29. Parts of SD county are super conservative.

A lot of them probably still think this is all a hoax.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #29)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 08:29 PM

30. Both El Cajon zip codes are ranked ...

4th & 5th. East San Diego County is very Conservative. They elected Duncan Hunter Jr. even after being indicted.
The other 8 zip codes are in Liberal zip codes. A lot of people in this area go back & forth between US & TJ.

Here are the top 10 zip codes in San Diego County, confirmed Coronavirus Cases.

Zip Code, Location, Case Count
92154, Otay Mesa, 102
91911, Chula Vista, 94
92103, Hillcrest ,78
92020, El Cajon, 74
92021, El Cajon, 70
91910, Chula Vista ,68
91950, National City, 65
92114, Encanto, 64
92113, Logan Heights, 63
92105, City Heights, 60

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Response to aggiesal (Reply #30)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 09:22 PM

31. That figures! nt

Last edited Mon Apr 20, 2020, 10:19 PM - Edit history (1)

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Response to Cha (Reply #5)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 07:19 AM

10. My paternal Grandfather also died from the 1918 flu. He was about 33 my mother about 10.

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Response to katmondoo (Reply #10)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 07:28 AM

11. Wow.. I'm so sorry, katmondoo. It's

so sad for our grandmothers and your mother. And, I wish my dad had a father growing up.

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Response to Cha (Reply #5)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 11:09 AM

15. Off topic, but I hadda do this

Your signature line inspired me




ON topic


- I'm an old fart, not in the best of health (over 5 decades of drinking and smoking?) and this bug scares me.

I haven't seen a single person yet to be wearing a mask, and while most are observing social distancing, too many are not. If I catch this thing - I'm dead meat. I've been social distancing as well as self isolating for more than a month (not a big deal for me, I'm pretty much a loner anyways).

My brother, who lives in Asia during the winter months, posted a pic of himself from Taiwan in early February. He was wearing a mask, as are almost all in that area of the World.

NO masks available in the wee town of 2k that I live in, or the city of 50k an hour away, and my online order from over 2 weeks ago is still "in the works".

We still are not taking this thing seriously enough

W

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Response to Worried2020 (Reply #15)

Tue Apr 21, 2020, 04:23 PM

39. Aloha, Worried2020.. Mahalo for

the pic. I have one of my son in a tube like 1/2 of that pic.

So you're in Canada? I'm glad you're taking precautions.. sorry so many aren't.

Before I had a mask I wore a dish towel out to the grocery store.. folded 3 times with a sheet of paper towel between the folds. It works.. and gloves. I'm taking no chances.

StaySafe!

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Response to Cha (Reply #39)

Tue Apr 21, 2020, 05:42 PM

44. aha - "Kaua'i" - yeah - I peeked . . . .



I was curious about the Aloha and Mahola - now I know . . . . .

Kaua'i

"It's an island that's pretty much all “country” with very little “city” to speak of. People come to Kauai to enjoy a slower pace of life. ... "

Sounds ideal, at least from my POV

Yeah - I could live there :





SO - the island hasn't cut off it's borders? - Hell If I lived on an island like that, I'd expect the governance to protect itself from outside dangers to the max - and this virus IS a serious threat - only idiots are screaming "Give me freedom or give me death".

Are there infections there already? deaths? - I hope not. without this virus thingy Kaua'i would be a paradise, no?

You take care too . . . OH - how did you fasten the dishtowel to your face?

I'm an old fart - don't really care much about what others think about my appearance - my "cute" days are long gone anyways





W

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Response to Worried2020 (Reply #44)

Wed Apr 22, 2020, 12:21 AM

49. Peeking is allowed! Yes, we're out here in the middle

of nowhere. And, no the borders weren't closed.. which I thought they had been at one point but I was wrong..

But we have been lucky..

Kauai County

21 Cases
14 Recovered
0 Deaths

https://www.google.com/search?ei=ZsKfXvvAFcH5-gTny6qgDg&q=how+many+cases+of+covid+on+kauai&oq=how+many+cases+of+covid+on+kauai&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzoECAAQRzoJCAAQQxBGEPkBOgIIADoECAAQQzoGCAAQChBDOg4IABDqAhC0AhCaARDlAjoFCAAQkQI6BQgAEIMBOgQIABAKUKDgBVjZ2AZg5N0GaAVwAngAgAGFAogB0CaSAQYwLjM5LjGYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6sAEG&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwj7i7ngk_voAhXBvJ4KHeelCuQQ4dUDCAs&uact=5

Mahalo nui loa for the beautiful pic!

I should have told you.. the towel ties around the back of the head.





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Response to Cha (Reply #49)

Wed Apr 22, 2020, 09:19 AM

55. Sadly, the USA learns little, even from their own history


"epidemic disease was by far the leading cause of the population decline of the American indigenous peoples after 1492"

If only them natives had not welcomed the Europeans . . . . . .

If only the USA had responded to the FIRST known case of the disease that devastated Wuhan as they did 911,

we would not be where we are today . . .

(sigh)

Towel too short to tie - when I looked in the mirror, I thought

SCARF!

While probably not a common item on the Islands - we gots plenty of them up here in Northern Ontario

Thanks for nudging a few of my brain cells to activate . . . . . .



W

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Response to Worried2020 (Reply #55)

Wed Apr 22, 2020, 05:29 PM

57. lol.. your "brain cells" seem

fine to me, W.. and you're Welcome!

And, yes trump ****** UP AGAIN.

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Response to Cha (Reply #1)

Tue Apr 21, 2020, 09:19 AM

34. The sinister thing is that they do know and are

keeping the deadly policy in place.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 04:01 AM

2. k & r n/t

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 05:41 AM

7. having the elderly pay the ultimate price is a win-win from the point of view of many

 

in Sweden and elsewhere, including the USA. No better demographic to see a thinning on from their perspective

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 06:08 AM

8. Sweden!

 

How the Hell did this happen there?

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 07:38 AM

12. Ice floes anyone?

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 10:54 AM

13. Weren't these folks encouraging their young people to have more babies?

to pay into their social services to help their elderly? This seems like a deliberate way to kill off elderly to save costs.

Neighboring Norway looks almost exactly the same for demographics, but a way lower death count.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 10:58 AM

14. I have been warning my Swedish friends about this. They respond with the false sense of superiority

 

that comes from being an old, established culture. "We know, you don't" is the vibe I got from them.

(by the way, there are only 2 of them)

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Response to zonkers (Reply #14)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 11:35 AM

16. In This Case

they sound pretty much like us.

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Response to RobinA (Reply #16)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 05:56 PM

22. Boom.

 

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 12:50 PM

18. If any country was going to do this "experiment" Sweden was a good choice

They seem to be respected around the world for having government policy based on facts and evidence. And in this case, it appears to be based on a scientific view. In many other countries (all that I can think of), such an approach would be viewed as some evil plan, by the leadership, for power or money. I haven't heard that yet wrt Sweden.

And Sweden is not doing that badly, certainly much better than conventional wisdom would have predicted. I think we really have no idea yet what the determining factors are. In the US, the wide discrepancy between NYC and other major cities (LA, Chicago, Houston, Phoenix) is yet to be determined (as far as I know). I have heard we will figure this out a year or so after it is over.

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Response to Steelrolled (Reply #18)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 02:47 PM

19. Its probably a good thing, looking at it purely objectively, to have this "experiment"

To gather data on that approach. If some country were selected to do this experiment, put their citizens at risk for the good of the whole planet, most would be aghast. But they put up their collective hands early on, decided they would volunteer to be the guinea pig society to see what happens if there is no shut down. What are you gonna do?

But I would also add, Swedes have a great, universal healthcare system. Centralized and well funded, and I'm sure much much more capable to deal with any sudden spike. ie. If any country should try this, its Sweden.

Too bad the US doesn't have a choice of a candidate that would work towards universal medicare system funded through taxes so costs could be reduced, everyone would be covered, centralized coordination, etc...........oh well.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #19)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 04:16 PM

20. The thing about Sweden is they are not doing this for the benefit of the planet

but for their own benefit. They believe this is the best plan for them. It could be arrogance on their part, or group-think on the part of everyone else.

We might never know with 100% confidence whether they made the best choice, however we may have a good idea. Even if it works out "ok" in Sweden, it doesn't mean the plan would work in other countries. But it might allow leaders to think more freely about their options, next time around, or even in the later states of the current pandemic.

Regarding Sweden's capacity for an outbreak, this often-cited article shows them near the bottom of the EU regarding ICU beds - don't know how accurate it is.

https://www.politico.eu/article/charting-europes-capacity-to-deal-with-the-coronavirus-crisis/

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Response to Steelrolled (Reply #20)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 04:43 PM

21. Interesting that they are so short on beds.

I wasn't trying to imply they were doing it for altruistic reasons. No country would have ever accepted being ordered to be the guinea pig. But they involuntarily volunteered so to speak. So they are a case study whether that was the intention or not.
Sweden has had recent spikes. I see a catastrophe waiting to happen there. But we'll see I guess.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #19)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 06:18 PM

26. Yes, we have a candidate who works towards fixing and completing Universal Health Care,

 

which is known in the U.S. as the ACA. It was thrown off track, and needs to get back on. After all, none of those other countries got the UHC they have now in just two years.

The vast majority of countries that have acheived UHC did it over decades, through a hybrid payer system much more akin to Obamacare than Medicare For All.

I guess some don't get this..... oh well.

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. A great person does not have to think consistently from one day to the next." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Goes for campaigns as well.



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Response to ehrnst (Reply #26)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 10:27 PM

32. Yup. Germany and Switzerland got great universal coverage through a hybrid ACA-like system. nt

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #32)

Tue Apr 21, 2020, 09:07 AM

33. Switzerland's population voted against a change to single payer a few years ago.

 

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #26)

Tue Apr 21, 2020, 02:22 PM

35. You are misinforned.

Every country with universal guaranteed basic healthcare is, in effect, a single payer system.

Because the basic universal healthcare for everyone is federal law. Even in Switzerland. They simply use private insurance companies to provide it. Citizens are required to purchase it. Which is not that much different than a mandated tax in other single payer countries. That vote seems more a case of it not seeming to be worth the logistics of changing it to a pure gov run insurance part, even if it would be cheaper in the end.

But it doesn't mean its efficient:

https://www.vox.com/2014/9/29/6864201/single-payer-switzerland-failed



Every western democracy uses single payer. Swiss do it the most roundabout way and in conjunction with the private insurers. But the most important aspect of every country is that UNIVERSAL BASIC COVERAGE IS MANDATED BY FEDERAL LAW. Whether private large companies top it off for their employees with private extras or not. This is a vast and key fundamental difference to the ACA.

In other countries, federal rights and standards of basic medical coverage for every citizen is law and overseen and enforced at a federal level, whether it is sub-managed by States, Provinces, or private insurers. This is true in Canada, the UK, France....etc..The US is not even close to that happening. That is the crux of any universal medicare system. Now without a strong candidate to fight for it, "it ain't gonna happen" anytime soon. Too bad.

https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2019/07/20dems-are-taking-money-healthcare/
"No Democratic candidate has pulled in more from the healthcare and pharmaceutical industries than Biden"

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/403248-poll-seventy-percent-of-americans-support-medicare-for-all
Even as as 70% of Americans and 85% of Democrats say they want single payer.

Whether its fear of a Gob'mint takeover if basic medical coverage is federal law on one side, or fear of losing an election because one doesn't have faith that they can convince enough to see its benefits and defeat the baseless arguments against it:

"Fear defeats more people than any other one thing in the world" - Ralph Waldo Emerson

But yes.......everyone vote for Biden! And us on the left will keep the pressure up to do the will of the American people.




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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #35)

Tue Apr 21, 2020, 02:28 PM

36. No, actually, you are incorrect in your use of that terminology. You seem to be confusing

 

"universal health care" with "single payer," which the Vox article you shared does distinguish.

It's a common mistake with those uninformed one health policy, and a very emotional attachment to certain types of political messaging concerning health care reform.

"In effect" does not a health policy definition make.

I hope that clarifies things for you.

If not, this may:

https://www.verywellhealth.com/difference-between-universal-coverage-and-single-payer-system-1738546

Germany
Germany has universal coverage but does not operate a single-payer system. Instead, everyone living in Germany is required to maintain health coverage. Most employees in Germany are automatically enrolled in one of more than 100 non-profit "sickness funds," paid for by a combination of employee and employer contributions.

Alternatively, there are private health insurance plans available, but as of 2014, only about 11% of German residents choose private health insurance.5

Singapore
Singapore has universal coverage, and large health care expenses are covered (after a deductible) by a government-run insurance system called MediShield. But Singapore also requires everyone to contribute 8 to 10.5% of their income to a MediSave account.6

When patients need routine medical care, they can take money out of their MediSave accounts to pay for it, but the money can only be used for certain expenses, such as medications on a government-approved list.

In Singapore, the government directly subsidizes the cost of health care rather than the cost of insurance (as is the case with insurance plans purchased through the ACA health exchanges in the United States).

As a result, the amount people have to pay for their healthcare in Singapore is much lower than it would be under a U.S. model.

Japan
Japan has universal coverage but does not use a single-payer system. Coverage is mainly provided via thousands of competing health insurance plans in the Statutory Health Insurance System (SHIS). Residents are required to enroll in coverage and pay ongoing premiums for SHIS coverage, but there is also an option to buy private, supplemental health insurance.7

By implementing a less burdensome single-payer model (rather than the separate government, private, and government-linked private health insurance mechanisms we have in the United States), governments like Japan are able to better streamline their national healthcare delivery.

United Kingdom
The United Kingdom is an example of a country with universal coverage and a single-payer system. Technically speaking, the U.K. model can also be classified as socialized medicine since the government owns most of the hospitals and employs the medical providers.

Funding for the UK's National Health Service (NHS) comes from tax revenue. Residents can purchase private health insurance if they want to. It can be used for elective procedures in private hospitals or to gain faster access to care without the waiting period that might otherwise be imposed for non-emergency situations.


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Response to ehrnst (Reply #36)

Tue Apr 21, 2020, 03:32 PM

37. The basic principle is the same.

From your article:
In most cases, universal coverage and a single-payer system go hand-in-hand, because a country's federal government is the most likely candidate to administer and pay for a health care system covering millions of people.

My main point was in all those examples, universal healthcare coverage is a federal law. It is not in the US.
If some want to parse it that its not single payer, as its not always a pure government run system through taxes, fine. But it is SP in all practical terms, as they are all supported by a mandated individual contributions from all working citizens. As well, all private insurers are bound by federal overseen standards, .... no preconditions exemption for example. And with everyone mandated to contribute, even private administered systems can afford to absorb that.

Again, its more about a national legislated program, with minimum care standards required by law across the country, as Switzerland, Japan, Germany have, than how it is divided up to be paid for between taxes and premiums.

If you can't afford the payments in Switzerland there is a government subsidy program as well.

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/us---swiss-health-series_caring-for-those-who-cannot-afford-health-coverage/43716470

In Switzerland, people with modest means may struggle to pay for basic health coverage for two simple reasons: insurance premiums are not adjusted to income, and they have doubled in price since 1996, while salaries have risen by just one-fifth. It comes as no surprise, then, that just over a quarter of the population needed government assistance to pay their premiums in 2014.

Gee, I wonder why they are just below the US in terms of efficiency, as per the graph above.

Personally, I think the USA's "State's Rights!" law in the 10th amendment, and the way it can be used in court, is probably the biggest hurdle. So many are in deathly fear of the federal government running anything. Maybe for good reason, but that fear has seemingly only grown in a lot of places.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #37)

Tue Apr 21, 2020, 04:16 PM

38. "Universal Health Care" is to "Single Payer" as "Canine" is to "Toy Poodle"

 

They are not the same, although there is overlap in one direction only.

One would not point to a German Shepherd and call it a Toy Poodle, even though they are both dogs, and not expect to be corrected.

Just as one would not point to a '68 VW bug and refer to it as a Chevy Suburban, and expect to successfully defend oneself when corrected by retorting, "the basic principle is the same."

Is that clearer?

Personally, I think the USA's "State's Rights!" law in the 10th amendment, and the way it can be used in court, is probably the biggest hurdle. So many are in deathly fear of the federal government running anything. Maybe for good reason, but that fear has seemingly only grown in a lot of places.


Pro-tip: Attempting a red herring fallacy by trying to pivot to "State's Rights!" and the 10th amendment in response to being corrected on one's misuse of terminology doesn't help one's credibility. The terminology and correct definitions remain the same despite the point you are trying to make. Sorry.

My main point was in all those examples, universal healthcare coverage is a federal law.


That still doesn't change the definition of "single payer" or "universal health care." It just means you don't want to admit that you got the terminology wrong. This reminds me of when pro-lifers persist in calling abortion "murder" even when corrected that murder is a specific legal term, and abortion has never been categorized legally as murder, even when it was illegal. They too insist that such corrections are "missing their main point."

Also... concerning Switzerland - 2014: Switzerland rejects single-payer, will keep its own version of Obamacare

You're welcome.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #38)

Tue Apr 21, 2020, 05:46 PM

46. I can't get through simple logic.

You are stuck on semantics. Swizerland and those like them that use the private industry as implentors of universal coverage, are like the St. Bernards to say the British bulldogs. Both are canine. The US is a cat. A different species. Always wants to do things their own way and doesn't care what anyone else thinks

Again from your link:
In most cases, universal coverage and a single-payer system go hand-in-hand, because a country's federal government is the most likely candidate to administer and pay for a health care system covering millions of people.

I did admit that they may not technically be called the same thing, in every case. But it still requires by law the total population to contribute to the health coverage for all. And government guaranteed quality. Call it what you want. Multi-single payer?

And if, as in Switzerland, 25% of the population cannot afford the Obamacare type private insurance that has doubled in price, THERE IS GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE TO PAY YOUR PREMIUM. (link above) Which all amounts to the same damn thing. At least as far as the main principle of medical insurance garanteed as a right to their citizens.

Those countries that use or allow private insurers, those insurers MUST FOLLOW FEDERAL LAW IN COVERING EVERYONE AND PROVIDING BASIC INSURANCE WITH NO PRECONDITIONS. AND....EVERYONE MUST PAY INTO HEALTH INSURANCE EITHER THROUGH A TAX OR A PREMIUM. However you want to define that, if not "single payer" that's okay by me. But whatever that is, that is what progressives want. That is our big blue herring. Oh, plus 85% of other Democrats, and 70% of all Americans.

If you can't understand the astronomical difference in principle of federal oversight, standards, a law for basic universal coverage ....between the US and European countries, and how that is the central basic premise of universal healthcare, and how a "single payer" that is the total population that must pay by law into it, EVEN IF THROUGH PRIVATE COMPANIES in order for it to work, then I give up.


And my thoughts on the 10th amendment were just an added thought. I thought I threw you a bone, speaking of dogs. I agree that any kind of federally oversought(?) M4A, or even any technically not single payer, but universally mandated program would not be easy. You don't think this would be a problem? It certainly was and is for Obamacare. Sorry to confuse you with that amendment.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #46)

Tue Apr 21, 2020, 06:09 PM

47. Continued attempts to avoid admitting that one is mistaken on the use of one's terminology

 

does not lend one credibility, no matter how verbose and linguistically florid the red herrings are, or frantically the goalposts locations are reassigned.

That's the "astronomical difference" between what's accurate and what isn't, is the "simple logic" not being understood here.

Here it is one more time:

"Universal Health Care" is to "Single Payer" as "Canine" is to "Toy Poodle"

They are not the same, although there is overlap in one direction only.

One would not point to a German Shepherd and call it a Toy Poodle, even though they are both dogs, and not expect to be corrected.

Just as one would not point to a '68 VW bug and refer to it as a Chevy Suburban, and expect to successfully defend oneself when corrected by retorting, "the basic principle is the same."





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Response to ehrnst (Reply #47)

Wed Apr 22, 2020, 12:32 AM

50. Nobody's moved any goalposts

Imagine the goalposts on one side of the field was totally built by government taxes. The goalposts on the other side was built by a private company. But both goalposts logistics are under the authority of the government. They decide how tall it is, how thick it is. how well secured it is, how far apart it is. They get to decide, because for one, the players want some standards, and minimum basic quality, and for another, its the players that pay for them. They all must pay. One side still pays a bit more because they hire a private firm to constuct it, and they need to make a profit. But it takes all the players to contribute to construct the posts. One single mass of them. For this one thing, they are all on the same team. Some can afford to pay more, some less, but its the government that makes sure that everyone gets to play with the same standards of equipment no matter how much they can pay.

Sweden and Canada and England etc. have had basically the same systems that Sanders, and 85% of Democrats want. Basically. Of course there are variations. Whether those governments allow the private industry to operate under their strict guidelines for everybody or not. Its still EVERYBODY, a single payer if you will, IN THE POOL. What is so difficult to understand about that?

It amounts to the same thing. Whether it is Universal healthcare paid for by workers, by mandated taxes, or a combination of taxes and premiums through private insurers. And whomever can't afford it in the case of private premiums, those premiums being paid for by government.

Again. Its the federal law ensuring basic healthcare is a right for everyone and overseeing it is adhered to all across a country that is what separates the US. I don't know if you agree to that point or are you still stuck in semantics?

As usual ehrnst, we will agree to disagree. I don't get your analogies, and you obviously don't understand mine.

No, a German Shepard is not a toy poodle. But they are both DOGS. ie.. you can argue all you like that those two dogs and a Siamese cat are the same, because they are all animals. But those dogs have way more in common with each other than they do with the cat. Both can bark, learn tricks, growl, defend the owner. A cat can't. Just like a government run and operated through a mandated tax system, provides the same basic care of one where government is still required to regulate and set guidelines through a mandated premium system. Both still require all of that one single nation of payers to participate. In cat nation, with no medical standards requirements, and no requirement for all of that single unit of payers to participate, and there's a cat on every block, is NOT the same.
Call it what you like.
cheers.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #50)

Wed Apr 22, 2020, 07:04 AM

53. Yes, you continue to move the goalposts, and you contintue to stonewall and attempt to derail

 

Last edited Wed Apr 22, 2020, 08:16 AM - Edit history (4)

I have "thrown you a bone" to correct yourself and learn something many times now, and you keep refusing to take the opportunity to do so.

You keep digging yourself deeper into hole to attempt to avoid it, all the while trying to say that I'm the one digging...



FYI - baiting and insults certainly isn't a good look when debating either.

If you can't understand that words have meaning which actually matters in a conversation about those words, and continue to deny that they do, however verbosely, even after being corrected and been shown directly the "simple logic" that argumentative fallacies don't somehow morph into actual arguments if you keep using them, then "I give up" like you said you were a few responses ago. Keep on calling that '68 VW bus a Chevy Suburban, but don't expect people to believe that you know what goes on under the hood.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #46)

Tue Apr 21, 2020, 06:29 PM

48. Actually, you continue to redefine the terminology and moving the goalposts.

That's apparent to almost everyone reading your replies.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #26)

Tue Apr 21, 2020, 04:53 PM

40. Reminds me of this from The Doors:

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Response to George II (Reply #40)

Tue Apr 21, 2020, 05:39 PM

43. Yep. (nt)

 

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Response to Steelrolled (Reply #18)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 05:58 PM

23. I have no respect for Sweden...they allowed people to die without trying to save lives...I am

horrified by their actions. They have nothing to be morally superior about going forward.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #23)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 06:04 PM

25. It ain't over yet.

I feel like I'm the only one who doesn't somehow know how this is going to come out in the end. I have to wait and see. As of today, Sweden is in better shape than much of western Europe, in terms of deaths/million.

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Response to Steelrolled (Reply #18)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 06:51 PM

27. Per capita, they're doing even worse than the US

It's the equivalent of 50,000 dead here.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon Apr 20, 2020, 06:04 PM

24. Sweden drank the Kool Aid.

Some idiot decided the “herd effect” could be reached without a metric shit ton of people dying. Well - they got it wrong. Sadly it’s probably too late to flatten the curve now.

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Response to BlueIdaho (Reply #24)

Wed Apr 22, 2020, 03:26 AM

51. I agree

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Tue Apr 21, 2020, 05:08 PM

41. Sweden has a history of eugenics practices 1936-1975 as

well as the other Nordic nations, Denmark, Norway and Finland.

https://www.economist.com/europe/1997/08/28/here-of-all-places

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Response to appalachiablue (Reply #41)

Tue Apr 21, 2020, 05:26 PM

42. And like here, immigrants, people of color are more affected since they live in dense housing.

Whereas half of all Swedes live alone.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #42)

Tue Apr 21, 2020, 05:42 PM

45. Yes, people of color are so heavily impacted; I'd forgot that

many Swedes live alone as featured in a couple news pieces recently.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Wed Apr 22, 2020, 06:07 AM

52. Elderly pay price in Sweden. Here, it's the young, and the generation to come.

Someone will be saddled with paying interest on this huge debt that's piling up. And currently, paying by earning little-to-nothing and trying to scrape by on some promised $1200 check.

This debt will not be paid through cuts in Defense spending or cuts to corporate subsidies. The R's will try to limit eligibility to Medicare, Social Security Cuts to education. Cuts to welfare programs.

I got a bad feeling about this.

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Response to JustABozoOnThisBus (Reply #52)

Wed Apr 22, 2020, 11:10 AM

56. Here, everyone is paying the price.

Our nursing homes' death numbers don't look much better than Sweden's.

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