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muriel_volestrangler

(101,020 posts)
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 06:33 AM Jul 2020

Oklahoma woman shot while trying to remove Nazi flag

Source: BBC

A US woman has been shot while trying to remove a Nazi flag from someone's front yard in the state of Oklahoma.

Garfield County Sheriff's office said the woman had been at a party nearby when she took one of two flags being flown outside Alexander Feaster's home.

Mr Feaster, 44, then reportedly shot her in the back with a semi-automatic rifle as she ran away.

The 26-year-old woman is expected to recover from her injuries and Mr Feaster is being held in custody.

Read more: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53247757

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Oklahoma woman shot while trying to remove Nazi flag (Original Post) muriel_volestrangler Jul 2020 OP
Only in Amerikka. Freedomofspeech Jul 2020 #1
You left out a k. not_the_one Jul 2020 #33
The United States media did not cover this story? UCmeNdc Jul 2020 #2
FYI, NBC did... MuchBetterThanThis Jul 2020 #5
Local paper has the story as well irisblue Jul 2020 #8
+1. He shot her in the back as she was running across the street dalton99a Jul 2020 #11
The BBC article is based in part on an NBC News interview. sl8 Jul 2020 #9
Feaster "would occasionally dress up in (a) black uniform with a red swastika armband - an outfit sop Jul 2020 #3
Probably dressed up when Trump was on TV at one of his NAZI rallies.......... Bengus81 Jul 2020 #17
probably not that big lapfog_1 Jul 2020 #29
It's their 'heritage' RandiFan1290 Jul 2020 #4
Shot her in the back. For taking a piece of cloth. truthisfreedom Jul 2020 #6
Many Trumpers who I know keep loaded guns in their houses. gab13by13 Jul 2020 #15
I believe it. I remember arguing once with a RW who thought it was all right to shoot someone for chia Jul 2020 #20
Isn't that just the perfect synopsis of where we are as a Country right now genxlib Jul 2020 #7
She is indeed lucky to be alive irisblue Jul 2020 #13
Some people, totally ignorant of the 3000' minimum between gun shops and liquor stores law. jaxexpat Jul 2020 #16
Perfect RobinA Jul 2020 #37
Obscenely illustrates what is wrong with some in this country. The positive is those who fought back hlthe2b Jul 2020 #10
This jerk.... louzke9 Jul 2020 #12
its oklahoma, and never a smart move to trespass beachbumbob Jul 2020 #14
Not a smart move to gun people down for what they consider "trespassing" Bengus81 Jul 2020 #18
Absolutely!! Thekaspervote Jul 2020 #28
It wasn't about being in danger. not_the_one Jul 2020 #35
Yes, that's exactly what it was. n/t Igel Jul 2020 #51
do you live in Oklahoma? beachbumbob Jul 2020 #45
Nope..up the road a piece in Kansas Bengus81 Jul 2020 #48
Does what's morally and legally defensible change when you cross over the border into Oklahoma? coti Jul 2020 #75
"shot her in the back" Trumpster Nazi on duty. keithbvadu2 Jul 2020 #19
She should not have been on his property and he should not have shot her. marie999 Jul 2020 #21
She was compelled to remove an abomination from public view. Many oasis Jul 2020 #31
Even a Nazi has freedom of speech in America. marie999 Jul 2020 #32
Nazi's best keep it amongst themselves or suffer the consequences. nt oasis Jul 2020 #34
I Disagree RobinA Jul 2020 #38
Nazi symbols are an abomination. Obscenity laws should apply. nt oasis Jul 2020 #39
You'd have to change the constitution for that Polybius Jul 2020 #40
That is the hard part. marie999 Jul 2020 #42
William Brennan was never Chief Justice, but point taken Polybius Jul 2020 #43
You are right. I have cognitive dissonance where when I read sometimes my brain will add a word marie999 Jul 2020 #44
Hate speech and immediate incitement to violence are illegal. Manifestor_of_Light Jul 2020 #99
You are incorrect. Flying a Nazi flag is protected speech/expression in the US. Jedi Guy Jul 2020 #100
Yes and burning the flag is protected symbolic speech. Manifestor_of_Light Jul 2020 #102
If it's YOUR Nazi flag, sure. If it's someone else's, not so much. Jedi Guy Jul 2020 #104
I forgot to put the United States flag. There are cases on that one. Manifestor_of_Light Jul 2020 #105
Yes, it's well-established that burning the US flag is protected speech. Jedi Guy Jul 2020 #107
The shoudln't TristanIsolde Jul 2020 #81
I'll put her on the list of those who almost won a Darwin Award. Kaleva Jul 2020 #111
"forgotten about soon"? It's 7/5 and this thread is still active. oasis Jul 2020 #113
Most here in this thread probably don't know her name. Kaleva Jul 2020 #114
"Kendal McVey" has a nice ring to it. Her act of bravery doesn't oasis Jul 2020 #115
I'll bookmark this thread and keep and eye out for other threads... Kaleva Jul 2020 #116
Who knows? "Kyndal McVey" may hitch a ride in your mind oasis Jul 2020 #118
The Atalanta jogger and Flint Mi. security guard have already been forgotten. Kaleva Jul 2020 #123
What was her ethnicity? raccoon Jul 2020 #22
Nazi flags are against the law in Germany world wide wally Jul 2020 #23
That's because in Germany, they put the smart people in charge. Aristus Jul 2020 #25
Shot in the back....Good bye gun rights AND enjoy prison Mr. Nazi!! aeromanKC Jul 2020 #24
Oklahoma, protecting the (free speech) Nazi flag. He will get a slap on his back. NCjack Jul 2020 #26
Wrong move, trying to remove a Nazi flag. eppur_se_muova Jul 2020 #27
Not worth risking your life Hip2bSquare Jul 2020 #30
I hope Mr. Feaster spends the rest of his miserable life in prison. SunSeeker Jul 2020 #36
Guess she shoulda just shot that flag instead donkeypoofed Jul 2020 #41
Both of them played stupid games and won stupid prizes. N/T Jedi Guy Jul 2020 #46
I used to pretend removing nazi paraphernalia was stupid too. LanternWaste Jul 2020 #54
When it's on someone else's property, yep, it's stupid. Jedi Guy Jul 2020 #55
Nazis have no personal property rights. TristanIsolde Jul 2020 #80
Sarcasm, I love it. N/T Jedi Guy Jul 2020 #82
No sarcasm, dead serious. TristanIsolde Jul 2020 #83
Oh, okay. You're dead serious. You're also wrong. But whatevs, you do you. N/T Jedi Guy Jul 2020 #84
Which is not giving rights to fucking Nazis, you know those people who gassed six million Jews. TristanIsolde Jul 2020 #86
They have the same rights that we do, as much as you might wish otherwise. Jedi Guy Jul 2020 #87
Out of morbid curiosity, I have a question. I suspect I know the answer, but I'll ask anyway. Jedi Guy Jul 2020 #94
Yeah , follow the law. I would not sit on that Jury though TristanIsolde Jul 2020 #98
Gadzooks. DavidDvorkin Jul 2020 #91
What a handsome looking orc Mr Feaster is! iscooterliberally Jul 2020 #47
Oh yeah, attempted murder is perfectly legal to justify petty larceny. sakabatou Jul 2020 #49
Feaster definitely trumped these two of a kind. Marcuse Jul 2020 #50
Found his ugly photo: Judi Lynn Jul 2020 #52
If only there were some way this could have been prevented. Say....... NT mahatmakanejeeves Jul 2020 #53
Don't be ridiculous. Jedi Guy Jul 2020 #56
It's depressing how common that view is on DU. DavidDvorkin Jul 2020 #57
Isn't it though? Jedi Guy Jul 2020 #58
It's "depressing" to read about people getting shot in the back. I'd oasis Jul 2020 #59
It's not either/or DavidDvorkin Jul 2020 #60
And yet the fact remains... Jedi Guy Jul 2020 #62
I wouldn't have risked life and limb doing what she did. oasis Jul 2020 #64
She stood up against freedom of expression, a founding principal of the Republic. Jedi Guy Jul 2020 #65
"freedom of expression? Try yelling "fire" in a crowded auditorium oasis Jul 2020 #67
You do realize that the fire in a crowded theater thing is nonsense, right? Jedi Guy Jul 2020 #68
Prior to the 13th Amendment, abolitionists stole people's property. nt oasis Jul 2020 #69
That's nice. Unfortunately, it also has nothing to do with what we're discussing. Jedi Guy Jul 2020 #71
If standing up against nazism is "wrong" I don't want to be right. oasis Jul 2020 #72
I never said standing up against Nazi ideology was wrong, and you know it. Jedi Guy Jul 2020 #73
Congrats to you. Behind the Aegis Jul 2020 #74
Yes, you and Jedi are right. This is the very foundation of the 1st Amendment. coti Jul 2020 #77
I can't speak for Jedi, but I never compared the two crimes. Behind the Aegis Jul 2020 #78
As I said upthread, he had no right to shoot her because she took his Nazi flag. Jedi Guy Jul 2020 #85
Apologies for the belated response, I didn't get or didn't see the notification for your reply. Jedi Guy Jul 2020 #89
You are often in this forum telling us we're wrong JonLP24 Jul 2020 #110
If you've got something you want to say, have the courage to come right out and say it. Jedi Guy Jul 2020 #119
That's not at all the same thing and a dishonest argument. nt coti Jul 2020 #76
Inciting to riot is wrong. Promotion of hate is wrong. Period. oasis Jul 2020 #79
My Hillary sign was stolen in 2016 Polybius Jul 2020 #90
Was the nazi flying his flag to support a candidate for office? oasis Jul 2020 #92
And what if it was a sign for one of David Duke's run for office? Polybius Jul 2020 #93
Just mark me down as one who "won't tolerate intolerance" and oasis Jul 2020 #95
You too! Polybius Jul 2020 #96
Most campaign signs are displayed to garner votes oasis Jul 2020 #97
Good luck with doing away with the First Amendment. Shouldn't be hard at all. N/T Jedi Guy Jul 2020 #101
Those who would rid society of evil nazi trash will continue oasis Jul 2020 #103
What you're saying basically boils down to "They have no rights because I say so." Jedi Guy Jul 2020 #106
"no rights"? I don't recall stating that in any of my posts. oasis Jul 2020 #108
Apologies, I got you confused with TristanIsolde upthread. Jedi Guy Jul 2020 #120
Supreme Court's 1969 decision in Brandenburg v. Ohio made it legal Kaleva Jul 2020 #112
It's always been legal to yell "Fire!" on your own property even if there isn't a fire. Kaleva Jul 2020 #117
She broke the law by stealing something from some's property Polybius Jul 2020 #88
Some are opposed to removing statues Democratically JonLP24 Jul 2020 #109
I think anyone who attempts to forcefully take down a statue in the US belongs in prison Polybius Jul 2020 #121
lolz obamanut2012 Jul 2020 #122
How do you feel about the people who took down this one? Polybius Jul 2020 #124
My Antifa grandfathers bombed and shot people like him. nt BrightKnight Jul 2020 #61
So did one of mine. Jedi Guy Jul 2020 #63
Why didn't he just record her and then report it to the police ? JI7 Jul 2020 #66
Because he's a Nazi. muriel_volestrangler Jul 2020 #70

dalton99a

(80,581 posts)
11. +1. He shot her in the back as she was running across the street
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 07:08 AM
Jul 2020
As the woman was crossing the street, Feaster came out the front door with a rifle and fired several shots, striking the woman, according to the affidavit. Feaster went back inside his residence, and one of the witnesses moved the red pickup into the street between the two houses as a barricade.

Deputies obtained a search warrant for Feaster's residence, which was served about 7:30 a.m. Sunday, according to the affidavit. Several firearms, ammunition and a security DVR system were seized.

Woodson reviewed some of the security footage from cameras outside Feaster's residence, according to the affidavit. At 2:54 a.m. he could see the woman run up to the residence, pull the Nazi flag down and ran back across the street with it. The video also showed Feaster leave the house with a large AR platform rifle on a sling and, without warning, open fire on the woman as she was running away.

Woodson noted it appeared on the video footage Feaster fired seven to eight shots "very rapidly." Woodson wrote, "It is important to note that ... did not appear to be in any way a threat to Feaster due to her obviously running away from his residence with only a flag in her hand."

sop

(9,717 posts)
3. Feaster "would occasionally dress up in (a) black uniform with a red swastika armband - an outfit
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 06:46 AM
Jul 2020

reminiscent of Nazi SS uniforms." Sounds like very fine people.

Bengus81

(6,883 posts)
17. Probably dressed up when Trump was on TV at one of his NAZI rallies..........
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 08:08 AM
Jul 2020

Gave him a big ole woodie............

truthisfreedom

(23,102 posts)
6. Shot her in the back. For taking a piece of cloth.
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 06:50 AM
Jul 2020

How much time did he spend watching her and preparing? When varmints attack my house, I never have enough time to get my gun.

gab13by13

(20,571 posts)
15. Many Trumpers who I know keep loaded guns in their houses.
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 07:49 AM
Jul 2020

and we live in a safe area. They claim they are not afraid because they have loaded guns. Some even have those strobe lights on their loaded guns to blind the mob of liberals when they invade their house.

True story.

chia

(2,235 posts)
20. I believe it. I remember arguing once with a RW who thought it was all right to shoot someone for
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 08:29 AM
Jul 2020

trying to break into his car.

lmagine thinking it's perfectly fine to summarily execute someone for petty theft. But it's truly the mindset of some of them, usually locked into some old testament belief about divine justice and their right to administer it.

genxlib

(5,490 posts)
7. Isn't that just the perfect synopsis of where we are as a Country right now
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 06:52 AM
Jul 2020

She is lucky to be alive after being shot 4 times with an assault rifle.

irisblue

(32,765 posts)
13. She is indeed lucky to be alive
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 07:12 AM
Jul 2020

Last edited Wed Jul 1, 2020, 08:36 AM - Edit history (1)

Deleted comment, because I do not know for sure if my post was true.

jaxexpat

(6,577 posts)
16. Some people, totally ignorant of the 3000' minimum between gun shops and liquor stores law.
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 08:07 AM
Jul 2020

Oh, there is no such law? But ..........

RobinA

(9,856 posts)
37. Perfect
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 11:18 AM
Jul 2020

Person who thinks it's OK to enter someone's property and express an opinion as to his lawn ornamentation meets person who thinks it's OK to shoot someone who takes a flag off his property. 2020 in America.

hlthe2b

(101,341 posts)
10. Obscenely illustrates what is wrong with some in this country. The positive is those who fought back
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 07:01 AM
Jul 2020

to safely rescue her.

louzke9

(296 posts)
12. This jerk....
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 07:11 AM
Jul 2020

May be acquitted by a OK jury, on the grounds he was just protecting his property. Hope it costs him a pretty penny. The woman could sue him in civil court also. Whatever happens I hope he pays one way or another.

Bengus81

(6,883 posts)
18. Not a smart move to gun people down for what they consider "trespassing"
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 08:12 AM
Jul 2020

She was outside,he was inside and zero threat to that NAZI. He should have called the police and let them charge her if he wanted to press charges.

 

not_the_one

(2,227 posts)
35. It wasn't about being in danger.
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 11:10 AM
Jul 2020

It was about making a POINT.

He was paying allegiance to the presiTURD.

 

marie999

(3,334 posts)
21. She should not have been on his property and he should not have shot her.
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 08:36 AM
Jul 2020

She probably committed a misdemeanor and he probably committed a felony.

oasis

(49,046 posts)
31. She was compelled to remove an abomination from public view. Many
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 09:41 AM
Jul 2020

wouldn't take the risk. I'm putting her on my list of true heroes.

Polybius

(15,058 posts)
40. You'd have to change the constitution for that
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 11:50 AM
Jul 2020

As much as I hate what the flag stands for, it should never be illegal here.

 

marie999

(3,334 posts)
42. That is the hard part.
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 12:11 PM
Jul 2020

Justice Brennan "It is easy to be in favor of 1st Amendment rights when you agree with what is being said. The real test is defending the free speech rights of those whose views you detest.".

Polybius

(15,058 posts)
43. William Brennan was never Chief Justice, but point taken
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 12:17 PM
Jul 2020

That's a great way to put it. Free speech isn't always about good speech.

 

marie999

(3,334 posts)
44. You are right. I have cognitive dissonance where when I read sometimes my brain will add a word
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 12:26 PM
Jul 2020

to what I am reading. The really weird times is when it will change the subject matter from positive to negative or the reverse. Usually, when that happens, it just won't sound right and I can catch it. I will edit my post.

 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
99. Hate speech and immediate incitement to violence are illegal.
Sat Jul 4, 2020, 09:58 PM
Jul 2020

It could be argued that flying a Nazi flag is hate speech.

Jedi Guy

(3,163 posts)
100. You are incorrect. Flying a Nazi flag is protected speech/expression in the US.
Sat Jul 4, 2020, 10:04 PM
Jul 2020

SCOTUS has repeatedly ruled that hate speech is protected under the First Amendment, and incitement to violence is very narrowly defined.

Jedi Guy

(3,163 posts)
104. If it's YOUR Nazi flag, sure. If it's someone else's, not so much.
Sat Jul 4, 2020, 10:31 PM
Jul 2020

Stealing and burning someone else's property and then claiming "but my free speech!" is not going to work.

Jedi Guy

(3,163 posts)
107. Yes, it's well-established that burning the US flag is protected speech.
Sat Jul 4, 2020, 10:36 PM
Jul 2020

I'm not entirely sure how that's relevant to the discussion at hand, though.

Kaleva

(36,059 posts)
111. I'll put her on the list of those who almost won a Darwin Award.
Sun Jul 5, 2020, 01:27 PM
Jul 2020

She accomplished nothing besides getting shot in the back. The woman will be forgotten about soon.

oasis

(49,046 posts)
115. "Kendal McVey" has a nice ring to it. Her act of bravery doesn't
Sun Jul 5, 2020, 01:53 PM
Jul 2020

have the historical significance of a Rosa Parks, but she will be remembered.

Kaleva

(36,059 posts)
116. I'll bookmark this thread and keep and eye out for other threads...
Sun Jul 5, 2020, 02:00 PM
Jul 2020

about her for the next several months. I believe, as we have a short attention span here, that she'll be forgotten about in a month or less.

I'll make a note to message you in August about what I observe regarding her.

oasis

(49,046 posts)
118. Who knows? "Kyndal McVey" may hitch a ride in your mind
Sun Jul 5, 2020, 02:15 PM
Jul 2020

everytime you see a nutcase sporting a swastika.

aeromanKC

(3,287 posts)
24. Shot in the back....Good bye gun rights AND enjoy prison Mr. Nazi!!
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 08:56 AM
Jul 2020

Draining the MAGAt swamp one Nazi at a time.

Hip2bSquare

(291 posts)
30. Not worth risking your life
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 09:39 AM
Jul 2020

As much as I hate the nazi and confederate flags, they are not worth risking your life to go into someone's yard to remove. Those flags are beacons of violence and ignorance. In a way it's good to know who Feaster is. He, and others like him, who proudly display those flags are filled with evil and violence and stupidity. It's good know who it is and where it lives. Thank goodness she will recover.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
54. I used to pretend removing nazi paraphernalia was stupid too.
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 05:16 PM
Jul 2020

But dealing in absolutes and third grade was a long time ago. At least in my case.

I doubt too many would hail your sentiment that getting shot in the back is a prize, though.

Jedi Guy

(3,163 posts)
55. When it's on someone else's property, yep, it's stupid.
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 06:24 PM
Jul 2020

Most of us learn not to touch other people's stuff in third grade or earlier, as well. Evidently this lady missed the lesson.

He was absolutely not justified in shooting her, of course, but had she kept her hands to herself we wouldn't be having this discussion. Although in your case it's less a discussion and more a sanctimonious lecture, as usual.

TristanIsolde

(272 posts)
86. Which is not giving rights to fucking Nazis, you know those people who gassed six million Jews.
Fri Jul 3, 2020, 09:10 PM
Jul 2020

But I guess that is extreme in this bizaro world we live in.

Jedi Guy

(3,163 posts)
87. They have the same rights that we do, as much as you might wish otherwise.
Fri Jul 3, 2020, 09:54 PM
Jul 2020

Ever heard of the Skokie Affair? If not, give it a look. It might prove illuminating.

In any case, someone's ideology doesn't negate their rights, however abhorrent that ideology may be. Your position is consistent with those on the right who say that captured terrorists have no rights as a result of their ideology. Not a good look, not a good look at all.

Jedi Guy

(3,163 posts)
94. Out of morbid curiosity, I have a question. I suspect I know the answer, but I'll ask anyway.
Sat Jul 4, 2020, 11:33 AM
Jul 2020

Let us say that, instead of stealing the guy's flag and running away, she had broken into his home and shot him dead as he sat in his living room, completely unprovoked. Would you want to see her arrested, charged, tried, and convicted for murder? And if you were on the jury for the trial, would you vote to convict? For the purposes of this exercise, assume that the evidence of her guilt is incontrovertible.

TristanIsolde

(272 posts)
98. Yeah , follow the law. I would not sit on that Jury though
Sat Jul 4, 2020, 04:24 PM
Jul 2020

They will kick me out once I state my opinion about Nazi rights.

Judi Lynn

(159,966 posts)
52. Found his ugly photo:
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 04:51 PM
Jul 2020


Alexander Feaster, left, shot Kyndal McVey, right, for stealing his swastika flag, center, from outside his home in Hunter, Oklahoma (Pictures: Garfield County Jail/NBC News/Twitter)


Neo-Nazi ‘shot woman in the back three times for stealing his swastika flag’ Comment Jimmy McCloskey
Wednesday 1 Jul 2020 7:02 pm

A Neo-Nazi shot a woman in the back three times after she tried to steal a swastika flag he flies outside his home, sheriff’s deputies say. Alexander Feaster, 44, reportedly shot Kyndal McVey, 26, with an AR-15 in Hunter, Oklahoma, on Sunday after she took the offensive World War Two-era emblem.

Sheriff’s deputies called to the scene found McVey laying in a ditch, and realized she’d been shot between three times. McVey is believed to have been attending a party at a friend’s house nearby when she decided to try and take the flag.

An arrest affidavit written by Garfield County Sheriff’s Deputy Marshall Woodson described what unfolded over surveillance camera footage, saying: ‘A white female, identified as Kyndal, run up to the residence and pull the Nazi flag down to the west side of the porch. Kyndal took the flag and ran back toward the residence…

‘I also observed a white male, identified as Alexander Feaster, exit the front door to his residence… with a large AR platform rifle on a sling and at the ready.’


Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2020/07/01/neo-nazi-shot-woman-back-three-times-stealing-swastika-flag-12931081/?ito=cbshare

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/


Jedi Guy

(3,163 posts)
56. Don't be ridiculous.
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 06:26 PM
Jul 2020

If it's someone whose views we don't like it's perfectly okay to steal their stuff. They have no right to freedom of expression.

Jedi Guy

(3,163 posts)
58. Isn't it though?
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 06:49 PM
Jul 2020

There are several people here who don't understand how the First Amendment works or why it's important. It really is disheartening.

oasis

(49,046 posts)
59. It's "depressing" to read about people getting shot in the back. I'd
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 07:47 PM
Jul 2020

be willing to bet 99% of DUers hold that view.

Jedi Guy

(3,163 posts)
62. And yet the fact remains...
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 08:39 PM
Jul 2020

Had she stayed off someone else's property and kept her hands off someone else's stuff, we wouldn't be having this discussion. He has the same right to freedom of expression that everyone else has, and she had no business going onto his property and taking his stuff. He was absolutely not justified in shooting her, and I hope he gets the chance to spend many years in a little box all by his lonesome.

oasis

(49,046 posts)
64. I wouldn't have risked life and limb doing what she did.
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 08:55 PM
Jul 2020

Thank God for people like her who, throughout the history of America, have stood up to bullys and tyrants. Without their acts of heroism there wouldn't be a U.S. Constitution.

Btw, some of those folks were shot and killed while defying existing laws.

Jedi Guy

(3,163 posts)
65. She stood up against freedom of expression, a founding principal of the Republic.
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 09:17 PM
Jul 2020

She's not much of a heroine, IMO. I'm sorry that she got shot, she most certainly didn't deserve that. But she very clearly decided that her opinion mattered more than someone else's freedom of expression and property rights. I have no respect for that way of thinking.

oasis

(49,046 posts)
67. "freedom of expression? Try yelling "fire" in a crowded auditorium
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 09:38 PM
Jul 2020

and then give the cops a song and dance about the "founding principles of the Republic".

Jedi Guy

(3,163 posts)
68. You do realize that the fire in a crowded theater thing is nonsense, right?
Thu Jul 2, 2020, 06:08 AM
Jul 2020

It was superceded by a later ruling which is the current precedent.

And anyway, how is that example at all related to this situation? Freedom of speech is not absolute, but a person certainly has the right to fly whatever flag they like on their own property. And a second person has no right to trespass on said property and steal said flag.

Jedi Guy

(3,163 posts)
71. That's nice. Unfortunately, it also has nothing to do with what we're discussing.
Thu Jul 2, 2020, 12:08 PM
Jul 2020

You're either in favor of freedom of expression or you aren't. You appear to be in the latter camp given that you would, by your statements, happily suppress the freedom of expression of those with whom you disagree. That stance is, IMO, un-American and wrong. No doubt you would, if you could, suppress my freedom of expression for having the temerity to disagree with your wrongheaded approach to freedom of expression.

Jedi Guy

(3,163 posts)
73. I never said standing up against Nazi ideology was wrong, and you know it.
Thu Jul 2, 2020, 12:31 PM
Jul 2020

I did and do say that trespassing on someone else's property and taking their stuff is wrong and illegal, because it is. I also say that suppressing their freedom of expression is wrong. They have the same rights as anyone else, no matter how abhorrent you or I may find their views. Everyone has freedom of expression, not just people you like and agree with. You'll have to learn to live with it. Welcome to America.

Behind the Aegis

(53,724 posts)
74. Congrats to you.
Thu Jul 2, 2020, 02:27 PM
Jul 2020

You took an unpopular opinion but stuck to your guns and, frankly, I agree with you. As a gay Jew (living in Oklahoma), a swastika Nazi flag is abhorrent to me, especially when displayed with pride, but it was on private property. So, again, as a gay Jew, what would people say if a person came onto my property to remove or vandalize my rainbow flag? Of course, this is the part where some will screech I am comparing the rainbow flag to the Nazi flag; I am not, so for those people, what if it was an Israeli flag (more than a few would compare it to a Nazi flag)? As long as the flag is on private property and not infringing on the rights of others (or violating other edicts, like HOA guidelines), then there is little one can do what shake their head at the disgusting views held by the owner proudly displaying the Nazi flag. This, IMO, is similar to political yard placards, and how we see people cheer those who rip down republican signs, but express rage and horror when democratic ones are vandalized or removed.

coti

(4,612 posts)
77. Yes, you and Jedi are right. This is the very foundation of the 1st Amendment.
Thu Jul 2, 2020, 02:41 PM
Jul 2020

HOWEVER, that Nazi fuck shot someone over a piece of cloth, and IN THE BACK.

She attempted to stifle his free expression. He attempted to murder her. The two crimes aren't even comparable and he ought to go to prison for a long time.

Behind the Aegis

(53,724 posts)
78. I can't speak for Jedi, but I never compared the two crimes.
Thu Jul 2, 2020, 03:00 PM
Jul 2020

I agree he deserves to go to prison and charges have been laid against him.

Jedi Guy

(3,163 posts)
85. As I said upthread, he had no right to shoot her because she took his Nazi flag.
Fri Jul 3, 2020, 09:09 PM
Jul 2020

She was not a threat to him and she was fleeing, so he had no business doing anything other than contacting the police to report a petty crime.

There is no comparison between what she did and what he did, except to say that both were in the wrong. One of them was just way, way more in the wrong. I hope he spends a lot of years in a little room all by himself. He clearly can't be counted on to exist in a civilized society.

Jedi Guy

(3,163 posts)
89. Apologies for the belated response, I didn't get or didn't see the notification for your reply.
Fri Jul 3, 2020, 10:17 PM
Jul 2020

Thanks. I figured I'd take some heat for that stance, and I was correct. It's legit disheartening how many people would happily strip rights from people whose views they abhor. I guess "I disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it" has gone by the boards these days. Or they legitimately don't understand how rights work. I guess it could be that, too.

And yeah, the hypocrisy is bitterly amusing at times, isn't it? Those are the folks who have adopted the idea of "freedom of speech for me, but not for thee." I've always been of the opinion that if it's wrong when they do it, it's wrong when we do it.

JonLP24

(29,322 posts)
110. You are often in this forum telling us we're wrong
Sun Jul 5, 2020, 11:29 AM
Jul 2020

It is interesting what hills you choose to die on.

Jedi Guy

(3,163 posts)
119. If you've got something you want to say, have the courage to come right out and say it.
Sun Jul 5, 2020, 07:45 PM
Jul 2020

If I feel people are wrong in their assessment, I'm going to say so. If that grinds your gears, well... tough rocks, pal. Feel free to use the "Ignore" feature if you don't like what I have to say.

oasis

(49,046 posts)
79. Inciting to riot is wrong. Promotion of hate is wrong. Period.
Thu Jul 2, 2020, 03:26 PM
Jul 2020

You 're welcome to get up on your soap box and give a lecture about "free speech" but your not going to convince me otherwise.

The scumbag nazi shot the lady in the back. Hopefully we can agree that was a totally criminal reaction.

Have a wonderful evening

Polybius

(15,058 posts)
90. My Hillary sign was stolen in 2016
Fri Jul 3, 2020, 10:18 PM
Jul 2020

It infuriated me and it was wrong. I never got to see who did it.

Polybius

(15,058 posts)
93. And what if it was a sign for one of David Duke's run for office?
Sat Jul 4, 2020, 11:10 AM
Jul 2020

What if it was a sign for Trump or Steven King? If you only want to protect political signs, what if it was an Israeli flag? What if it was a "Merry Christmas" decoration? You have to either answer yes for every one or no for them.

oasis

(49,046 posts)
95. Just mark me down as one who "won't tolerate intolerance" and
Sat Jul 4, 2020, 12:14 PM
Jul 2020

leave it at that.

Have a nice 4th of July.

Polybius

(15,058 posts)
96. You too!
Sat Jul 4, 2020, 12:45 PM
Jul 2020

But can I ask where you draw the line? I know you think it's fine to steal a Nazi sign. So where is the line drawn? A Duke sign? A Trump sign? A Romney sign?

Not arguing at all, have a happy and safe 4th.

oasis

(49,046 posts)
97. Most campaign signs are displayed to garner votes
Sat Jul 4, 2020, 02:07 PM
Jul 2020

for a person running for office. The views/ ideology of a candidate can be extremely left or right but the person running for office can be rejected at the ballot box.

Nazi flags are flown as symbols of hate and serve no other purpose. Nazis and KKK can keep that poisonous obscenity to themselves. Their parades and rallies are rightfully protected, but they are always met with counter protests. That's ok by me.

However, a nazi flag flying permanently in the front yard of a civilized neighborhood is as objectionable as a pile of dogshit, and must be cleared away.

oasis

(49,046 posts)
103. Those who would rid society of evil nazi trash will continue
Sat Jul 4, 2020, 10:31 PM
Jul 2020

in their ways. Save your lecturing about the First Amendment for them.

Jedi Guy

(3,163 posts)
106. What you're saying basically boils down to "They have no rights because I say so."
Sat Jul 4, 2020, 10:35 PM
Jul 2020

Or, more succinctly, "Nuh uh!" It's not an argument, it's just a statement of opinion over and over again. You're entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts, and the facts are against you here. I humbly suggest you learn to live with that.

oasis

(49,046 posts)
108. "no rights"? I don't recall stating that in any of my posts.
Sat Jul 4, 2020, 10:49 PM
Jul 2020

If we're going to talk about who is entitled to what facts, try keeping your "facts" in order.

Jedi Guy

(3,163 posts)
120. Apologies, I got you confused with TristanIsolde upthread.
Sun Jul 5, 2020, 07:47 PM
Jul 2020

Allow me to amend my post. With a tiny alteration, it still applies perfectly well.

What you're saying basically boils down to "They have no freedom of speech because I say so." Or, more succinctly, "Nuh uh!" It's not an argument, it's just a statement of opinion over and over again. You're entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts, and the facts are against you here. I humbly suggest you learn to live with that.

Kaleva

(36,059 posts)
112. Supreme Court's 1969 decision in Brandenburg v. Ohio made it legal
Sun Jul 5, 2020, 01:32 PM
Jul 2020

"There, the Court held that inflammatory speech--and even speech advocating violence by members of the Ku Klux Klan--is protected under the First Amendment, unless the speech "is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action" (emphasis mine)."

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/11/its-time-to-stop-using-the-fire-in-a-crowded-theater-quote/264449/

Polybius

(15,058 posts)
88. She broke the law by stealing something from some's property
Fri Jul 3, 2020, 10:14 PM
Jul 2020

Do you also defend those who tear down legally placed statues that they don't like?

JonLP24

(29,322 posts)
109. Some are opposed to removing statues Democratically
Sun Jul 5, 2020, 11:20 AM
Jul 2020

Like that statue Fredrick Douglass didn't like.

Polybius

(15,058 posts)
121. I think anyone who attempts to forcefully take down a statue in the US belongs in prison
Mon Jul 6, 2020, 12:12 AM
Jul 2020

I want nothing to do with these people.

Jedi Guy

(3,163 posts)
63. So did one of mine.
Wed Jul 1, 2020, 08:44 PM
Jul 2020

My maternal grandfather was a tank mechanic who lived through the Battle of the Bulge and helped liberate Mauthausen. He also believed in freedom of expression. When I was a teenager and learned of the Skokie Affair, I asked him what he thought of it. He said that while he loathed those people and everything they stood for, they had the right to express their beliefs. Them's the rules in America, like it or not.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,020 posts)
70. Because he's a Nazi.
Thu Jul 2, 2020, 10:38 AM
Jul 2020

There are groups that it might be unfair to paint as psychopaths, but a Nazi, especially when there's no peer pressure to be one, is pretty much a psychopath by definition.

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