Boeing 737 Max back in air 2 years after grounded by crashes

[brooklynite]

Source: Seattle Times

RIO DE JANEIRO (AP) — Commercial flights with Boeing 737 Max jetliners resumed Wednesday for the first time since they were grounded worldwide following two deadly accidents nearly two years ago.

Brazil’s Gol Airlines became the first in the world to return the planes to its active fleet, using a 737 MAX 8 on a flight from Sao Paulo to Porto Alegre, according to flightradar24.com.

The company own announcement didn’t specify the route of the flight.

Gol is set to start regular service on Dec. 18, according to aviation data firm Cirium, with several daily flights between São Paulo and other major Brazilian cities.



Read more: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-737-max-back-in-air-2-years-after-grounded-by-crashes

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RIO DE JANEIRO (AP) — Commercial flights with Boeing 737 Max jetliners resumed Wednesday for the first time since they were grounded worldwide following two deadly accidents nearly two years ago.

Brazil’s Gol Airlines became the first in the world to return the planes to its active fleet, using a 737 MAX 8 on a flight from Sao Paulo to Porto Alegre, according to flightradar24.com.

The company own announcement didn’t specify the route of the flight.

Gol is set to start regular service on Dec. 18, according to aviation data firm Cirium, with several daily flights between São Paulo and other major Brazilian cities.

[Doodley]

1. I guess a few hundred dying here and a few hundred there are not important in the age of Covid.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

10. Yes, 300 deaths seems somehow harmless and quaint.

I just hope they've fixed the thing. I hope to fly next summer, after a few doses of vaccine.

[zipplewrath]

2. It's probably safe

From the pilots I know, the fundamental problem was that Boeing wasn't being up front about the significant differences between the Max and other 737's. Pilots that received extensive training learned the subtle but important differences and knew how to deal with the issues the Max had. Mind you, those issues should have been fixed instead of relying upon the experience and expertise of the pilots to deal with them. From what heard and read, that's pretty much what they've done. It'll be hard to know until the line pilots get their hands on them and work out the kinks.

[Happy Hoosier]

4. It was largely a training issue. And a Boeing cheaping out issue

Boeing only included certain warning annunciators as optional equipment.

Properly trained pilots were able to recognize the problem, and properly recover the aircraft. Less well trained pilots did not recognize the problem for what it is and "flew in to the problem."

An absolute tragedy, but the aircraft is fundamentally safe.

[zipplewrath]

6. I agree

But the core problem was that Boeing was relying upon "properly trained" pilots to recognize the problem, instead of preventing or mitigating the problem in the first place.

I do hear a complaint about the current fix is that it requires pilots to execute a series of actions in certain situations from memory. This is not uncommon. But usually it's maybe upwards of 12 actions prior to switching to printed procedures or check lists. With the Max, apparently, there are conditions during which the pilots are expected to execute upwards of 30 actions from memory. And failure to do them in the correct order, and not skip any steps can be catastrophic.

But this is third hand so it could be an overstatement.

[NurseJackie]

11. Who compensates the families? I wonder if it's Boeing or the airlines...

... I haven't heard anything.

[Happy Hoosier]

12. Probably a combo.

It's unlikely the aircraft would have been lost with proper pilot training.

But Boeing's sales pitch about convinced a lot of foreign carriers that the additional training was not really necessary.

The design shortcomings were not super serious, except the single point of failure AOA sensor. That was dumb.

[Major Nikon]

22. An interesting thing about the Lion Air 610 crash was the airline tried to trick victims

...into signing minimum compensation required and a no lawsuit clause.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/lion-air-crash-victims-families-told-to-sign-no-suit-deal-in-order-to-get-minimum-compensation-report-says

[Sneederbunk]

3. Can someone direct me to a detailed description of how Max was "fixed"?

[Happy Hoosier]

5. Here ya go:

https://www.faa.gov/foia/electronic_reading_room/boeing_reading_room/media/737_RTS_Summary.pdf

Starts on Page 9.

[Sneederbunk]

7. Thanks much.

[Sapient Donkey]

13. Another thing to download with the intent to read, but sadly will never get around to reading...

I wish there was a way to just upload PDFs directly to my brain.

[PuppyBismark]

8. It is one of the safest airplanes

I am a pilot and have been following this in great detail. The FAA made Boeing fix the underlying problem and is mandating need training.

As an aside had the pilots of the crashed 737’s gotten the information know then they would have not crashed. Now even they would have not crashed with the new fixes.

[Happy Hoosier]

9. Also in aviation.... and I agree.

I am an avionics engineer, not a professional pilot, but yeah... I totally agree with your assessment.

[NurseJackie]

14. It sounds positive... but I wonder why it took such a long time to fix the problem.

Was it something that was difficult to pinpoint? Or something that was difficult to solve? Or something that was difficult to implement? Or something that was difficult to convince the world's aviation authorities that it was safe again?

Why did they provide safety on-the-cheap previously? I'd read that the training was optional (or unnecessary) and other safety equipment was sold as optional. Am I correct?

It doesn't put Boeing in a very positive light. I imagine that Ford wouldn't be viewed too positively if seatbelts, speedometers and brakes were optional.

In any case, I guess what I'm getting at is this: since we know that Boeing is a shortcut-taker and a corner-cutter, what assurances to passengers have that they didn't do the same thing this time. Obviously they were under a lot of pressure to get this back in the air (probably even more so now than they were the first time around when it was introduced.)

Does the FCC's policy of allowing manufacturers to self-certify need to be reevaluated too? (You don't need to answer all these questions, HH. I'm just talking out loud.)

[Happy Hoosier]

18. Largely because...

Boeing had to find the contributing issues propose the changes, get the changes approved. Implement the changes. And document the entire process meticulously. Finally, the FAA has to review in detail.

[Sapient Donkey]

15. I played flight simulator 98 many years ago

and this information is good to know.

[My Pet Orangutan]

16. "The FAA made Boeing fix the underlying problem" ... ah no.

The underlying problem is the 737 Max is aerodynamically unstable.

[Major Nikon]

19. It is no more aerodynamically unstable than any modern passenger jet

Arguably more stable since most modern transport category aircraft require fly by wire systems to be stable while the 737 Max does not.

[My Pet Orangutan]

20. The 737 Max is uniquely unstable for a passenger jet.

Dynamically unstable.

In the 737 Max, the engine nacelles themselves can, at high angles of attack, work as a wing and produce lift. And the lift they produce is well ahead of the wing’s center of lift, meaning the nacelles will cause the 737 Max at a high angle of attack to go to a higher angle of attack. This is aerodynamic malpractice of the worst kind.

Pitch changes with power changes are common in aircraft. Even my little Cessna pitches up a bit when power is applied. Pilots train for this problem and are used to it. Nevertheless, there are limits to what safety regulators will allow and to what pilots will put up with.

Pitch changes with increasing angle of attack, however, are quite another thing. An airplane approaching an aerodynamic stall cannot, under any circumstances, have a tendency to go further into the stall. This is called “dynamic instability,” and the only airplanes that exhibit that characteristic—fighter jets—are also fitted with ejection seats.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/aviation/how-the-boeing-737-max-disaster-looks-to-a-software-developer

[Major Nikon]

21. The author is a pilot who flies a personal Cessna, not a jet

The article is filled with conjecture and quite a bit of ignorance regarding the handling characteristics of transport category jets.

Some jets have engines which are very forward on the wings while some have them on the rear of the fuselage. You'd better believe that creates some very different handling characteristics, particularly when power is applied abruptly. Some jets pitch up when power is applied the same way the author's Cessna does while jets with rear mounted engines pitch down when power is applied. "Dynamic stability" the author mentions has exactly nothing to do with this characteristic. If you apply max continuous thrust to a CRJ-900 flying at a low power setting, it's going to behave completely opposite of a A330. None of this has anything to do with designed stability.

The reason for MCAS was to give pilots of previous generations of the 737 the same feel as previous generations so that a new type certificate was not required for pilots making upgrade training a lot cheaper. The problem was during malfunctions it could create a runaway pitch trim scenario which can also happen with any other transport category jet. The reason for both 737 Max crashes were they were in full nose down pitch. Neither crash was blamed by any competent accident investigator on design stability.

As far as "uniquely unstable for a passenger jet" goes, consider that almost all new transport category jets incorporate fly-by-wire technologies without which they wouldn't be able to achieve certification.

[Major Nikon]

17. I'm a professional pilot and the report on the Lion Air 610 crash is very revealing

Certainly there were problems with the aircraft, but the result should not have caused a crash.

https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/indonesian-investigators-release-final-lion-air-610-crash-report/

[Steelrolled]

23. Good to hear - we are going to need all the capacity we can get

once the pandemic wanes. Pent up demand.

[Owl]

24. I'll wait a few years.