Scoop: Manchin returns to Build Back Better negotiations with demands

[demmiblue]

Source: Axios

Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) is open to reengaging on the climate and child care provisions in President Biden's Build Back Better agenda if the White House removes the enhanced child tax credit from the $1.75 trillion package — or dramatically lowers the income caps for eligible families, people familiar with the matter tell Axios.

Why it matters: The holdback senator's engagement on specifics indicates negotiations between him and the White House could get back on track, even after Manchin declared he was a “no” on the package on Dec. 19.

The senator’s concerns with the size and the scope of the package remain.

His belief that it could cost more than $4 trillion over 10 years extends beyond the CTC issue, and he continues to tell colleagues he’s concerned about the inflationary effects of so much government spending, Axios is told.

Read more: https://www.axios.com/scoop-manchin-new-play-2cb59ff0-1577-44bf-81a4-a0d72b7e9be2.html

[msongs]

1. says who? made up baloney nt

[olegramps]

52. Manchin, our own resident Liberal Bill saboteur.

[Irish_Dem]

2. I keep trying to type something but it is all cuss words.

[a kennedy]

25. I hear ya Irish......damn him.

[Irish_Dem]

29. I bet you and I could let out a string of words to describe Manchin.

And to express our sentiments.

[CentralMass]

3. I have zero respect for Manchin

[LenaBaby61]

17. That high?

[monkeyman1]

47. he is high !!!!

[Magoo48]

49. Way high!

[Champion Jack]

39. yup, I lived in wv for 10 years. He's worthless

[drray23]

4. lowering the income cap is something that can be negociated

Here is what it currently is at in the senate bill:

Enhanced child tax credit: The child tax credit which provides $300 a month for each child under age 6 and $250 a month for each one ages 6 through 17 — would be extended through 2022 for more than 35 million families. Heads of household earning up to $112,500 and joint filers making up to $150,000 annually would qualify for the enhanced payments. But, unlike in 2021, only these families would receive the funds in monthly installments next year. Eligible parents with higher incomes would have to claim the credit on their tax return the following year. The credit would be made permanently refundable so the lowest income families would continue to qualify. The enhancement, which was part of the $1.9 trillion coronavirus relief package Democrats enacted earlier this year, is currently only in place for 2021.This credit, along with the earned income tax credit, would cost about $203 billion, according to the CBO.

So, if your family income is less than $150,000 you get monthly $300.00 per child payments, if its above yo get a tax credit instead.


Source: https://www.ciada.org/2021/11/28/build-back-better-bbb-house-version-doa-in-senate/

[Alexander Of Assyria]

30. Yes sir. Which is what the article is implying...it's no surprise.

Before this year same thing…negotiations put off to this year…and here we are.

But the vitriol never ends.

When the package Is finalized, and law…hope that ends once and for all for a fellow pro-democracy, not flat earthier Democrat vote.

[questionseverything]

32. If it's capped at $150,000 who is it that would qualify for the

Credit on their taxes

[TexasBushwhacker]

38. It's the amount over $2K per child that's capped at $150K for a married couple

If a married couple's AGI is over $150K, then the additional $1600 per year for children under 5 and the additional $1K per year for children over 5 is what is holding things up. Before 2021, the CTC was $2K per child regardless of age for couples with AGIs up to $400K. That was to make up for the exemptions that Trump took away.

I do not believe Manchin wants to do away with the CTC entirely. He just wants to lower the income caps for the folks currently eligible for the extra $1K to $1600 per child. At this point, I say so it and put it up for a vote. Hell, Lisa Murkowski may even get behind it.

Does it even occur to Manchin that when he says he's afraid that people getting the tax credit are spending it on DRUGS, that he's talking about his CONSTITUENTS?

[questionseverything]

40. It was my understanding that the entire $3000 or $3600 was capped at $150,000 in 2021

If you have a link that shows the first $2000 credit is figured separately from the last thousand I would love to see it

What you are saying would be better because as democrats we wouldn’t be taking something people have had for awhile (btw while ctc was increased to make up for losing exemptions it had existed since the 1990s just in a lesser form)

[qazplm135]

5. call his bluff

lower it to 75K and say ok now vote for it.
If he says yes, great, pass it and move on.

If he says no, he's just BSing again.

[KS Toronado]

15. 75K sounds like a good cut off point to me.

Always felt like the $150K cut off was helping the upper middle class who really shouldn't be hurting.

[dsc]

18. 75k is awful low

Say you have two teachers in NC who are married to each other, and have two kids. If they each have 3 years experience and work for my district, they would have salaries of 40850 each or 81700 total. Off the top would be the insurance for their two kids, which would be 3550 so they are now down to 78150. assume a college loan payment for both of $400 a month, that is another 4800 so now we are down to 73350. I am about to buy a house, so I will use my mortgage, taxes, insurance estimate of 1200 a month. And lets have them have one car payment of 300 a month. 55350 and they haven't paid taxes, eaten, bought clothing, etc.

[qazplm135]

21. no one is saying it's ideal

but the point is to capture the folks who really would be SOL without it and that would do it.

He's going to want a cut or nothing, so give him 75, go forward, win the election and get more progressives in to make it relevant and increase it next bill.

None of this is for all time.

[Tom Rinaldo]

55. It changes the basic mission of the bill in many parts of the nation

Rather than being geared to help struggling families remain on reasonably sound financial footing as a form of well earned economic relief, it instead reverts to being more of a hard core anti-poverty measure, aimed at raising some children out of extreme poverty. If that is all we can get out of this Congress it is better than nothing at all, but the original plan is superior.

[rpannier]

19. Live in the San Francisoc Bay area, with two kids, making 125k

That money doesn't go as far as you may think
The tax credit is as significant to people there as it is to people in other areas of the country

[KS Toronado]

46. I forgot some cities like yours cost a lot more to live in

Where I'm at in deep red KS, people making $150K a year or more have the nicest and newer homes.

[monkeyman1]

48. try floriduh !

1 bedroom , 1 bath, cracker box apt. run's 1300.$ a month ! that's in a low end part of town !

[questionseverything]

28. Child tax credits weren't about "who needed help " originally

They are part of the tax law to give people a tiny bit of credit realizing raising children costs money

They started in like 1992, when trump took away personal exemptions they were increased by a $1000. For people making up to $400,000/year

Then democrats added a $1000 but limited the income to $150,000 ( which I believe killed us in the Virginia suburbs)

If it gets capped at $75,000 family income you can kiss being in power good bye

[Alexander Of Assyria]

31. Capped lower...lose elections? I m thinking the opposite...lower cap means more money for

the needy.
We are the Jesus party, the other tribe is praying to a golden calf…even literally at times.

Perhaps the added income for lower income children will rouse up some voters who don’t mostly vote…lot of those kind.

[questionseverything]

33. You are suggesting taking away a thirty year old credit for raising children

Thinking people are going to reward that thinking is foolish

[Alexander Of Assyria]

35. M focusing on the giving part, and it's electoral consequences as u are...not the taking.

Think that’s the general consensus in the WH.

[karynnj]

59. It may be OK in Kansas, but not in higher cost states

If it is limited, the threshold should be adjusted by state cost of living.

[Sapient Donkey]

61. I would feel better if it was closer to $100k for a single earner

and like $125 for two income homes. $75k isn't much money in a lot of places around the US. If it's too low then a lot of people who are voters and could really use that additional money will feel like they are being left out despite their obvious need. That will make them resentful and more likely to oppose it. We saw some of them when it came to ACA and people who earned too much to get meaningful subsidies, but didn't really earn enough to pay for expensive insurance.

[essaynnc]

6. I'm thinking...

That he did his economic research on facebook. Even though the experts say there will be no upward inflationary pressure from the build back better, he seems to think there will be.

I honestly think it's a stall technique. Yet think? Hold off to the midterms. then he won't have to be the asshole that torpedoes it !!

[NurseJackie]

7. Sold! GREAT! Let's do it! Vote on it and move on!

[JohnSJ]

34. Exactly. We can't delay 6 months like last year. Get what you can get, and realize not everything

will be there

Bashing Manchin and Sinema will not get the BBB out the door.

[bucolic_frolic]

8. In a poor state like WV

many voters might question why households earning $150K get a tax credit for each child. Households at that level usually take care of themselves.

[NHvet]

56. Yes but WV isn't the only state in the USA

Sure, in the poor states (or we can call them the taker states) they see a 150K household as high living. But remember, we're a country of 50 states, each with their own cost of living which either makes it more or less expensive to live there. Try living on 150K with kids in NY, CA, VA,MA, or any of the other high cost of living states or metropolitan city. Add the SALT exemptions being limited to 10k per household and by the end of the day that 150K isn't worth that.

[CanonRay]

9. Make the bastard vote no

That is all.

[PatrickforB]

10. Well, golly gee! What do you all bet Manchin didn't even bat an eye before voting on the giant,

bloated $770 BILLION war bill?

But, hey, young parents don't need no childcare subsidy!

[MyOwnPeace]

12. I TRULY believe.......

you are indeed looking at ONE of the lies in what MUNCHKIN does to get through the day....

[LenaBaby61]

22. And he was silent as a church mouse ...

When Fatass45 and his ENTIRE GQP US Taliban party passed that 2017 filthy, budget-busting, tax cut for the richest 1% that only helped the truly rich, and was NOT nor will it ever BE paid for like Mnuchin said it would be.

NO concern over that though, but a TON of concern, sickness and hand-wringing about how much the BBB will cost (It's fully paid for by the way), and no concern whatsoever for poor people in his own state who are old and thrust more into poverty, more toothless, deaf/hard of hearing due to a lack of hearing aids, cannot afford to buy their Insulin, and where many folks (Especially the young) are hopelessly addicted to Opiods.

After 2 Years, Trump Tax Cuts Have Failed To Deliver On GOP's Promises

December 20, 2019 11:32 AM ET
Heard on All Things Considered
Scott Horsley 2010

President Trump prepares to sign the tax legislation in the Oval Office on Dec. 22, 2017. The GOP tax cut did not pay for itself, as promised, nor did it deliver a sustained boost to economic growth.

Two years ago Friday, Republicans in Congress passed a sweeping tax cut. It was supposed to be a gift-wrapped present to taxpayers and the economy. But in hindsight, it looks more like a costly lump of coal.

Passed on a party-line vote, the tax cut is the signature legislative accomplishment of President Trump's first term. He had campaigned hard for the measure, promising it would boost paychecks for working people.

"Our focus is on helping the folks who work in the mailrooms and the machine shops of America," he told supporters in the fall of 2017. "The plumbers, the carpenters, the cops, the teachers, the truck drivers, the pipe-fitters, the people that like me best."

As Growth Slows To 1.9%, The Economy Is Falling Short Of Trump's Target

ECONOMY

As Growth Slows, The Economy Is Falling Short Of Trump's Target
In fact, more than 60% of the tax savings went to people in the top 20% of the income ladder, according to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center. The measure also slashed the corporate tax rate by 40%.

"It will be rocket fuel for our economy," Trump promised.

Boosters of the tax cut insisted the economy would grow so fast, it would more than make up for the revenue lost to lower rates.

"The tax plan will pay for itself with economic growth," Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin said.

It hasn't worked out that way.

"It was unbelievable at the time, and it's proven to be absolutely untrue," said Maya MacGuineas, president of the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget. "The tax cuts were never going to — and have not — come anywhere close to paying for themselves."

Corporate tax revenues fell 31% in the first year after the cut was passed. Overall tax revenues have declined as a share of the economy in each of the two years since the tax cut took effect.

https://www.npr.org/2019/12/20/789540931/2-years-later-trump-tax-cuts-have-failed-to-deliver-on-gops-promises

[mathematic]

42. You are poorly informed. Manchin literally voted NO on the trump tax cut.

https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=115&session=1&vote=00303

[LenaBaby61]

60. I'm very informed thank you anyway.

What I'm talking about how the greedyl power-hungry, oil barron-loving shill from WV KEEPS harping on how President Biden's BBB plan will drive up inflation, which is a DAMN LIE. Those tax cuts for the rich is still ongoing, continues to drive up inflation and was NOT paid for.

Also, how many times did he harp on how much that tax cut for the RICH is STILL costing us? Like uh, NEVER.



Manchin killed Build Back Better over inflation concerns – an economist explains why the $2 trillion bill would be unlikely to drive up prices.

One of Sen. Joe Manchin’s main concerns in deciding to pull his support for President Joe Biden’s Build Back Better plan is that it would drive up inflation, which is currently rising at the fastest pace in four decades.

On Dec. 19, 2021, the West Virginia Democrat said in an interview that he couldn’t support the bill in its current form because of the impact he says it would have on increasing consumer prices and the national debt. The decision effectively killed one of Biden’s top economic priorities.

The Senate had been considering the roughly US$2 trillion bill passed by the House that would spend money on health care, education, fighting climate change and much else over the next decade. Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer says he still plans to bring it to the floor for a vote.

Manchin and Republicans have argued the risk that more spending could push inflation even higher is too great.

https://theconversation.com/manchin-killed-build-back-better-over-inflation-concerns-an-economist-explains-why-the-2-trillion-bill-would-be-unlikely-to-drive-up-prices-174093

[elias7]

11. First, he needs a primer in macroeconomics

[dalton99a]

13. Kick

[DENVERPOPS]

14. As soon as the Dems

give in to this demand, he will merely come up with a new one......

Lucy and Football and Charlie Brown........

[PoliticAverse]

16. Negotiating in public is counterproductive. n/t

[monkeyman1]

20. the W.V. mental midget returns to scene of a crime !

[rpannier]

23. Scoop: Lucy is offering to hold football so Charlie Brown can kick it

[Mr.Bill]

24. If you give him everything he wants

he will want something else tomorrow. He's been doing this for months.

[Bristlecone]

26. Does he want to be President? I keep getting the feeling he and Sinema want a ticket

[quakerboy]

45. thats nonsensical

He'd get less votes than Vermin supreme. the right has no love for him, and democrats finally see through the BS now.

[WHITT]

27. Lower The CTC Cap For Now

We could pick up senate seats in Pennsylvania, or Wisconsin, or Ohio. Then it can be readjusted.

[MichMan]

36. I see a lot of people wanting Schumer to schedule a vote and make Manchin go on the record with a no

even though that would mean it didn't pass. Headlines likely reading "BBB goes down to defeat in the Senate"

Yet Speaker Pelosi was praised for not scheduling any votes that weren't guaranteed to pass. How can both be the right strategy ?

[Ford_Prefect]

37. IMO Manchin has only 1 agenda. He's out to beat anything Biden and the rest of the

Democrats try to do by tearing them down bit by bit, and take as log as possible doing it. That's the agenda of his patrons.

[Rob H.]

41. Smoke and mirrors

He’s never going to get to yes—he never was, and it’s ridiculous that people still believe anything he says when he’s shown himself to have been negotiating in bad faith this entire time.

[TheFarseer]

43. I'm fine with that

Let’s do it! Hope he is not just leading us down a dead end and stalling for some reason.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

44. They have lost millions of tax dollars to his dithering.

Percentage rates going up. Climate Change becoming more costly by the hour.

He is the personification of Penny Wise, Pound Foolish.

[Vinca]

50. What's the matter? Did the camera turn away from Manchin for more than a minute?

He's an attention whore, pure and simple. Fine - lower the income cap ASAP and sign the damn thing.

[DownriverDem]

51. I know the process

can be very messy, but Manchin is the worst. He comes out and says he's a no and now he's talking again. Did folks in his state lean on him? The miners union are telling him to support it. I just wish that we can get this done. It would help with the Midterms.

[twodogsbarking]

53. If y'all managed your money like the government you would be

LIVING IN A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

54. I'm glad Manchin wasn't a Founding Father.

"I want there to be eight amendments to the Bill of Rights. Ten is just too damned many."

"Why are there three branches of government? Two is enough."

"Why is the filibuster not part of the Constitution? It should be Article One."

" Why am I not the final arbiter of how our government serves the people? Oh, that's right -- I am!"

[twodogsbarking]

57. You could have included that

slaves have it too good.

Not unlike what he is saying to the good people of WV who
really need help.

[karynnj]

58. If Manchin requires an income cap on who gets the CTC, I hope it is done fairly

First off, there should be a taper off, not a threshold where less than that number you get the full amount and above it nothing. Also, the amount should be adjusted by the cost of living in their state or, if possible, a more localized area.