What forensic testing reveals about revolver in on-set 'Rust' shooting
Source: ABC News
The gun used in the fatal shooting on the "Rust" movie set could not have been fired without pulling the trigger, according to an FBI forensic report obtained Friday by ABC News.
Actor Alec Baldwin shot cinematographer Halyna Hutchins on the set of the Western, which he was producing and starring in, last year. The actor believed he was handling a "cold gun" -- one without live ammunition -- when it went off and a live bullet struck Hutchins, killing her. The film's director, Joel Souza, was also wounded in the shooting.
Read more: https://www.yahoo.com/gma/gun-rust-shooting-could-not-015300975.html
"No reason to lie Craig"....
Didn't see that coming
Irish_Dem
(47,014 posts)NullTuples
(6,017 posts)I'm guessing that will be used against him both as the person who pulled the trigger and as the Producer on set in any lawsuits, fines, etc..
Irish_Dem
(47,014 posts)Thank you for the information!
Mosby
(16,306 posts)Stop it.
His recollection is that he didn't pull the trigger.
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)As producer he ignored worker safety complaints even after a number of them walked off the set in either protest or fear for their own safety.
As producer he forced the conditions where someone was going to pull the trigger on a gun loaded with live ammunition.
Mosby
(16,306 posts)Is that your argument?
He was working as an actor when this happened.
The fact that he was one of many producers of the picture is irrelevant.
Eta if you weren't anonymous, he could sue you for that second paragraph.
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)Also, he was working as both producer and actor that day, and as he was the producer on-set, he called the shots.
Mosby
(16,306 posts)And they don't protect workers any or more or less than the 1000s of companies who aren't part of a union.
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)Last edited Sun Aug 14, 2022, 08:41 PM - Edit history (1)
- and they make sure they are enforced, to keep workers safe.
Arguing about unions in other industries is a distraction, a false argument. A fallacy.
Simply put, if that set was union, the accident would not have happened. Or if you prefer, the chance of it happening would have been incredibly small.
Baldwin chose to not run a shop that was safe for his workers.
There were prior accidents.
It was so bad, even at the risk of being blacklisted, workers walked.
People were *playing* with the guns during down-time, using them to target practice with live ammunition.
Those are things that would not have happened if he'd valued his workers enough to ensure their safety.
As a producer - and the one on-set - that all falls on him.
Mosby
(16,306 posts)In any type of business I'm aware of.
That's my point.
If you disagree that's fine, but your insulting millions of workers and management who take their jobs very seriously.
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)But there is this:
"a one-percentage point increase in the unionized workforce was associated with a 2.8% decline in the rate of occupational fatalities."
https://scholars.org/contribution/how-unions-help-prevent-workplace-deaths-united-states
And this:
"Report: Union construction jobsites significantly safer than non-union sites"
https://theconstructionbroadsheet.com/report-union-construction-jobsites-significantly-safer-than-nonunion-site-p547-175.htm
And another:
"Conclusion: It was found that the OIIR of workplaces with a LU is lower than those without a LU. Moreover, those with the OSHC usually had a lower OIIR than those without."
Labor Union (LU)
Occupational Safety and Health Committee (OSHC)
Occupational Injury and Illness Rate (OIIR)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2093791111240034?via%3Dihub
...I can do this all day, there are hundreds listed.
Mosby
(16,306 posts)Got it.
yardwork
(61,599 posts)Martin68
(22,794 posts)Unions are more about safe working conditions for workers, and commensurate pay, than any particularly superior ability to perform the job. I am pro-union and have been a union member, but I don't buy your argument here.
yardwork
(61,599 posts)First, as a producer, Baldwin probably has some liability for what happened. He wasn't just "working as an actor."
Second, there was nothing in that post that was actionable. Calm down. Baldwin is a public figure. People have the right to express opinions on internet websites.
azureblue
(2,146 posts)I had an old revolver, and the trigger would often no "set' Right, when the hammer was pulled back. The spring was weak, So the pistol had a hair trigger. Plus, some revolvers have a 2 stage cocking mechanism that will sometimes not set the trigger all the way - pull the hammer back partway and the cylinder turns, but the trigger doesn't go all the way forward. -- Hence the old term, "Going off half cocked".
I don't see any blame on Alec. Whoever mixed up live fire ammo with blanks, and failed to pay attention when loading, that is the problem. He should have been handed an empty pistol.
yardwork
(61,599 posts)It sounds like he may have been negligent. The courts will decide.
TheBlackAdder
(28,189 posts)Mosby
(16,306 posts)discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)neoconn
(185 posts)discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)J_William_Ryan
(1,753 posts)Perhaps depending on how familiar Baldwin is with the firearm.
The Colt Single Action Army revolver model of 1873 (or clone) has the classic hair-trigger the slightest touch can discharge the weapon.
Baldwin may not have intentionally pulled the trigger, believing he didnt pull the trigger.
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)quotes from his interviews:
And then this gun goes off.
"Someone put a live bullet in a gun, a bullet that wasn't even supposed to be on the property," Baldwin said. "Someone is responsible for what happened, and I can't say who that is, but I know it's not me."
Note: Baldwin wasn't just an actor, he was the Producer on set that day. Ensuring the safety of everyone working for him ultimately falls to him since he was making the cost-benefit decisions when it came to said safety.
From: https://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/alec-baldwin-rust-shooting-responsible/story?id=81490389
To get the shot, Baldwin said he needed to cock the gun, but not fire it: The trigger wasn't pulled. I didn't pull the trigger.
I cock the gun. I go, Can you see that? Can you see that? Can you see that? Baldwin said. And then I let go of the hammer of the gun, and the gun goes off. I let go of the hammer of the gun, the gun goes off.
So, you never pulled the trigger? Stephanopoulos asked.
No, no, no, no, no, Baldwin said. I would never point a gun at anyone and pull a trigger at them.
Torraco, Halls attorney, corroborated Baldwins account on Thursday, saying Halls told her from day one that he was watching from three or four feet away and the entire time Baldwin had his finger outside the trigger guard parallel to the barrel
that Alec did not pull that trigger."
stopdiggin
(11,302 posts)But, yes - a single action revolver (which many people today are not familiar with) can be quite 'touchy' with the hammer pulled back. Which, incidentally must be done manually (thumbed back) - and would be necessary in either firing the weapon, or 'simulating' fire (for cinematic purposes). There is also such a thing as an incomplete hammer cocking action (human error) - where the hammer, having not reached a 'locked' position, falls forward when released.
In any case, I can see no conceivable excuse for live ammunition - or even worse, a weapon containing live ammunition - being anywhere near a live set. That - and that alone - is where the vast preponderance of fault lies here.
Response to stopdiggin (Reply #9)
Owl This message was self-deleted by its author.
ShazzieB
(16,389 posts)JohnnyRingo
(18,628 posts)As a single action, the trigger doesn't do anything when the hammer is at rest. So why was the gun cocked and ready to fire?
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)This is not a "hair trigger" it is heavy enough to be felt by the shooter. This is done as a precaution against just this type of incident.
Farmer-Rick
(10,163 posts)Pull steadily on the trigger so that you are almost surprised that the gun fires. It was a good technique to keep from jerking your weapon.
I could see pulling a trigger and not being aware you pulled it. He could actually believe he didn't pull it. If you have any experience with weapons, it's almost natural to pull the trigger. That's why kids frequently shoot off firearms by accident when they are around them.
Roy Rolling
(6,917 posts)Please show your work.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)"Someone put a live bullet in a gun, a bullet that wasn't even supposed to be on the property," he added.
So the FBI is stating that Baldwin's account of events doesn't wash. The trigger had to have been pulled. However, that still does not answer the question about why live ammunition was in the firearm. That would be the responsibility of the armorer, not the actor.
rpannier
(24,329 posts)If that story is true (and I've never seen anything to the contrary) it does suggest that there was a real weakness when it came to safety on the set of the movie, which could fall on the producers
Roy Rolling
(6,917 posts)The link to an upcoming show promo story doesnt report repeated lies by Baldwin. The wording is factually incorrect, and its important in such a tragedy to remain unbiased and not editorialize about the event.
Finding blame will be revealed by a thorough criminal investigation, the family and friends of the late Director of Photography deserve nothing less.
Implying carelessness and repeated infractions by Baldwin isnt supported by the evidence nor conclusion of the investigation.
oldsoftie
(12,533 posts)Jeeze what a shitshow
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)Why didn't he check? He made a bad assumption is my best guess. He relied on the armorer to have handed him a firearm with blanks or no ammo. However, even blanks pose a serious danger. Jon Erik Hexum paid with his life for that mistake when he put a gun loaded with a blank to his head and pulled the trigger. A chunk of his skull was sent into his brain from the force of the muzzle blast.
This film may very well spell the end of working firearms on film sets. Going forward, prop guns will likely be used, and muzzle blasts, smoke, and sound will be added by SFX in post-production.
truthisfreedom
(23,146 posts)One of my best friends career was destroyed by this event, the AD.
oldsoftie
(12,533 posts)Man did the women LOVE him back in the day.
I forgot how he died.
I've actually been shot by a blank round so I understand what you mean.
Random Boomer
(4,168 posts)No well-run set depends on an actor -- who doesn't necessarily have any familiarity with weapons -- to check the status of the gun they're handed. That is the job of props. There is supposed to be a chain of "ownership" of the weapon as it is checked, prepped and then handed to the actor. If a weapon is declared "cold", as this one apparently was, the actor has to trust in the crew.
By all accounts the weapons master on the set was young and although she had worked with props for years, this was her first job as a master. There were also many reports of loose handling of weapons, poor control and a production assistant who cut corners. It was the PA who handed the weapon to the actor and declared it a cold gun.
The direct responsibility lies on the weapons master and the PA; it was their job to keep the set safe. But the production company also bear some of the blame for not immediately responding to crew complaints about safety issues.
ripcord
(5,372 posts)The armorer wasn't on the set at the time, the gun was left outside the set on a cart. The producers, one of which is Baldwin btw, decided that the armorer would be of more use working with props at the time rather than being on the set when a weapon was being used.
Random Boomer
(4,168 posts)From the accounts I've read from weapon masters in the movie industry, the last thing they want is the actors being involved in this process. Actors would rarely have the expertise to know what to look for in a weapon to declare it safe to handle.
There are different kinds of ammunition for different purposes, and with different levels of safety depending on how they're fired. They can't just peek inside and have any clue what has been loaded, and if they take the ammunition out of the gun, they are breaking the chain of possession and increasing the risk of issues, not decreasing them.
Baldwin is absolutely responsible as a producer -- he's a seasoned actor and should have recognized the issues that cost-cutting was creating. But it wasn't his responsibility to check the weapon itself; that's a job for the professionals he apparently wasn't willing to hire.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)On a stage or a film set, a stage firearm is generally regarded as a prop, and the responsibility of ensuring that the correct props are present falls to the prop master. Prip weapons are generally the responsibility of a specialist- the armorer. However, those with firearms experience- especially those who have been in the armed services- have been trained to regard any firearm as loaded unless told otherwise by competent authority and even then are inclined to check for themselves.
In this instance Baldwin did not check, but was ostensibly told that it was a cold gun by the armorer.
ripcord
(5,372 posts)The armorer wasn't on the set at the time of the shooting, the assist director handed him the gun. I want to know exactly who decided the armorer shouldn't be on the set to do her job when actual firearms were being used.
By law the person holding a gun is responsible for its safe handling and use, there are no exceptions in the law for movies.
Mosby
(16,306 posts)And had every reason to believe it was a prop.
Why would he assume it had a live round in it?
Maybe someone who hated him put a live round in the revolver.
We don't know. What we do know is that there were bullets on the set of this movie.
ripcord
(5,372 posts)The regulations for handling guns on movie productions are set by insurance companies not by law. The law says the person holding the gun is responsible for its safe handling, this is not superseded by movie and insurance company regulations.
Mosby
(16,306 posts)If it's so simple.
A conspiracy perhaps?
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)I suspect Baldwin's attorneys will assert that he did not think he was holding a firearm; he thought he was holding a stage prop. Will that work? IDK
I apologize about the armorer. You are correct about the AD and your question about that absence is spot-on.
Aussie105
(5,388 posts)your finger needs to be well away from the trigger.
If you want to lower the hammer, you need to pull back on the hammer against spring tension, pull the trigger, and slowly lower the hammer.
Let the hammer slip or lower it too fast, the thing will go off.
Only if there is a live round under the hammer of course.
Even without a live round under the hammer, you lower it carefully as not to damage the hammer. Not good for it to fall on an empty chamber.
Why a live round in that gun? Some crew members had been taking pot shots with it earlier, it was handed to Baldwin believing it was cold when it wasn't.
Someone should have checked. The armourer, or Baldwin himself. Takes mere seconds.
Not the first time nor the last. This accidental discharge death just happen to have occurred on a movie set.
Kid Berwyn
(14,897 posts)Priorities, please.
Whoever did that not only killed an innocent woman, he or she ended Baldwins political future.
Random Boomer
(4,168 posts)From some reports, during lunch break a bunch of crew members were shooting at a target with a gun they picked up off of the unsupervised props table. No gun should have ever left the possession of the armourer. No guns at all should have been allowed anywhere on the shooting location, and no one on the set should have been shooting them for any reason.
When it was time for a scene with a firearm, the armourer should have carefully inspected and loaded the gun in the presence of the Production Assistant, declared it "cold" and then personally handed it to the PA (instead he just took it off the table). The PA would then walk the gun over to the actor and personally hand it to him and repeat that it was a "cold" gun. The minute the scene was over, the PA would take back possession of the gun and return it to the armourer.
On some sets, the armourer insists on doing the inspection and prep right in front of the actor and handing it to them directly, not even allowing a PA to enter the chain of possession.
So many safeguards were ignored -- all of which exist for a reason -- that it was probably inevitable that a mistake would happen. This one turned out to be deadly.
Kaleva
(36,298 posts)Always assume the gun is loaded and never point it as something you aren't willing to destroy
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)most of the safety rules. That is why you have the proper gun and prop managers on set to load and verify the guns with the proper blanks.
This whole thing is a mess because a few idiots purposely brought live ammo onto the set in violation of all the movie set rules.
Kaleva
(36,298 posts)A cascade of failures resulting in tragedy.
oldsoftie
(12,533 posts)So when he fired it hit the people behind the camera
Kaleva
(36,298 posts)No excuse whatsoever for violating basic gun safety rules .
I'd like to know what kind of training Baldwin had before the filming began as it was known by him and many others he'd be handling a gun capable of firing lives rounds.
Treating gun safety like a joke often ends of badly.
oldsoftie
(12,533 posts)Kaleva
(36,298 posts)There is only negligence and it is sometimes criminal negligence.
Kid Berwyn
(14,897 posts)Not to make an excuse, but I remember Baldwin saying the gun fired as he picked it up; he had not aimed at anyone.
Alec Baldwin Details How the Gun Went Off in Fatal 'Rust' Shooting, Says He Is Not Responsible
By Zach Seemayer
Entertainment Tonight, December 2, 2021
Alec Baldwin is opening up for the first time about the fatal shooting on the set of Rust. In his first sit-down interview since the incident back in October, the 63-year-old actor got emotional and candid while reflecting on the tragedy that left cinematographer, Halyna Hutchins, dead, and injured director Joel Souza
Recalling the shooting itself, Baldwin claims that he never actually pulled the trigger. Instead, he and Hutchins were filming an insert shot of Baldwin drawing the gun, and she wanted to get an angle of him pulling back the hammer on the revolver.
As has been reported, Baldwin was told by the Assistant Director, Dave Halls, that the gun was "cold," meaning it did not contain ammunition that could be discharged -- including blank rounds. With that in mind, Baldwin claimed it was Hutchins who directed him where to point the gun to get the angle she wanted to film.
"I let go of the hammer of the gun, and the gun goes off," Baldwin said, explaining that he had "pulled the hammer as far back as I could without cocking the gun."
continues
https://www.etonline.com/alec-baldwin-recalls-details-of-tragic-rust-shooting-in-emotional-first-interview-176007
And, yes, as made clear on this and so many threads on guns, never point a gun at anyone or anything you dont want to kill.
Aussie105
(5,388 posts)Pulling back the hammer but not to the point where it locks on fully cocked, then letting go of the hammer will slam it down on the chamber.
Hard enough to fire the gun, if there is a live round under it.
"I let go of the hammer of the gun, and the gun goes off," Baldwin said, explaining that he had "pulled the hammer as far back as I could without cocking the gun."
Effectively the same as 'fanning' the hammer, you keep the trigger pulled, pull back the hammer and let go - the gun fires.
Repeat for rapid shots.
Martin68
(22,794 posts)check out the shot. He bears absolutely no responsibility for pulling the trigger on a gun that was supposed to be guaranteed safe. Whoever handed it to him had the responsibility to insure that. Unless Baldwin has been around guns a lot, he probably wouldn't even think to check the gun first.
Kaleva
(36,298 posts)Baldwin is supposedly an intelligent adult and he should have been well aware of the fact that guns are dangerous and one needs proper training on how to safely handle them.
Some people excuse him by saying he was told to point the gun in a certain direction and he had to do it. Bullshit. Baldwin is no child nor is he a special needs adult.
An innocent person is dead because Baldwin is just another idiot with a gun. Thousands die or are seriously injured every year because of them .
If Baldwin didn't want to bother with attending safety training and taking that training seriously, then a prop gun should have been used. One incapable of firing anything. There would have been nothing wrong with that.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,326 posts)People are assuming the movie set works like their local range where the gun is either loaded or not.
Kaleva
(36,298 posts)Gun safety can be taught in a classroom or even on line. One doesn't need to know how to load, unload, or fire a gun in order to handle it safely by following the four basic rules.
Martin68
(22,794 posts)Kaleva
(36,298 posts)Had the rules been followed, the woman would be alive today.
Martin68
(22,794 posts)trigger. There are people on set whose responsibility it is to insure that such guns are neither loaded nor dangerous. The actor's job it to do what he or she is told as realistically as possible. It's not a shooting range. It's a movie set.
Kaleva
(36,298 posts)It may be done but it doesn't excuse actors from doing something they ought to know is dangerous. I wouldn't do it because I value life over money and I don't think you'd do it either.
Baldwin is no rookie just starting out. He's an established star and in this movie, he was also a producer. He is culpable for the death of an innocent. The gun was in his hand and he negligently ignored simple to understand safety rules. One of which is to always treat the gun as if it is loaded and the other is to never point it at anything you are not willing to destroy.
Martin68
(22,794 posts)opinion of a court ruled otherwise?
Kaleva
(36,298 posts)I won't. Baldwin probably won't be criminally charged but he may be sued. Often nothing happens to these people and it's called an "accident". Baldwin may be turn up by guilt for the rest of his life and deservedly so.
All of which could be avoided had Baldwin realized guns are dangerous and one needs training in order to safely handle one.
oldsoftie
(12,533 posts)Kid Berwyn
(14,897 posts)Right-wing pundits and politicians have long chafed at the actor's criticism of former President Donald Trump.
By ASSOCIATED PRESS / via Politico
10/26/2021
NEW YORK Details are still emergingabout how Alec Baldwin accidentally shot and killed a cinematographer on a New Mexico film set, but some political onlookers swiftly assigned guilt to one of Hollywoods most prominent liberals.
Right-wing pundits and politicians have long chafed at Baldwins criticism of former President Donald Trump and his Trump parody on Saturday Night Live. They wasted little time zeroing in on the actor who pulled the trigger. The hashtag #AlecForPrison ricocheted around Twitter.
Within hours of the shooting, Ohio Republican Senate candidate J.D. Vance asked Twitter to let Trump back on the social media platform that banned him after the Capitol insurrection. We need Alec Baldwin tweets, Vance wrote.
By Monday, Trumps oldest son was selling $28 T-shirts on his official website with the slogan Guns dont kill people, Alec Baldwin kills people. The post was later removed.
Snip
Literally not one single thing that Alec Baldwin has said about Donald Trump and his supporters is going to age well, tweeted conservative commentator Candace Owens.
Continues
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/10/26/alec-baldwin-film-shooting-political-fallout-517171
oldsoftie
(12,533 posts)Martin68
(22,794 posts)live ammunition. No actor on the set is responsible for an accident like that. There are props people who re supposed to make sure the set is safe.
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)He chose to go non-union to save costs
He chose to do nothing when people walked off the set due to safety violations
He chose to ignore that people were "playing" with the set guns with live ammo using them for target practice during off hours.
This is on him. And the other producers, but he was the one on site. He knew the most about what was happening.
Martin68
(22,794 posts)Last edited Thu Aug 18, 2022, 08:20 AM - Edit history (1)
gun on set. Union or not, there are strict rules on the handling of weapons and who is responsible for enforcing them.
Raine
(30,540 posts)I'm sure he certainly never meant to kill or hurt anyone. He probably had a temper tantrum, lost control and fired the gun.
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)The prop masters and gun masters did not verify the gun like their jobs require.
A few idiots brought live ammo onto the set in violation of all the set rules.
ripcord
(5,372 posts)It was decided it was more important for her to be working with the prop master than being on the set when a firearm is in use. We need to find out who made that decision.
Aussie105
(5,388 posts)It was a real gun, a genuine historically accurate one - no blanks, a 'cold' gun. Supposedly.
You could have used it safely to hammer nails in. Supposedly.
Except for it having a live round in it. Totally safe otherwise.
Kaleva
(36,298 posts)he handled it correctly.