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Trump attorneys haven't found classified document former president referred to on tape
Source: CNN Politics
CNN -- Attorneys for Donald Trump turned over material in mid-March in response to a federal subpoena related to a classified US military document described by the former president on tape in 2021 but were unable to find the document itself, two sources tell CNN.
Prosecutors issued the subpoena shortly after asking a Trump aide before a federal grand jury about the audio recording of a July 2021 meeting at Trump's golf course in Bedminster, New Jersey. On the recording, Trump acknowledges he held onto a classified Pentagon document about a potential attack on Iran.
Prosecutors sought "any and all" documents and materials related to Mark Milley, Trump's chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Iran, including maps or invasion plans, the sources say. A similar subpoena was sent to at least one other attendee of the meeting, another source tells CNN.
The sources say prosecutors made clear to Trump's attorneys after issuing the subpoena that they specifically wanted the Iran document he talked about on tape as well as any material referencing classified information - like meeting notes, audio recordings or copies of the document - that may still be Trump's possession.
Read more: https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/02/politics/donald-trump-iran-subpoena/index.html
Full headline: Exclusive: Trump attorneys haven’t found classified document former president referred to on tape following subpoena
61 replies
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= new reply since forum marked as read
Where did they look, and where did they not look/where did he refuse to allow them to look?
(I will apologize in advance for dumping all this below here but we have to understand how things are supposed to work, by law, which is why there are investigations associated with the records that 45 retained and reluctantly or didn't return)
"Document" disposition is the purview of NARA. NARA is the government agency that manages and stores "government records", and records including paper documents or electronic ones like emails (as well as other government-generated media like films or images, etc) are "records" based on how an agency defines such, and how long they are stored (before destruction) OR if they are permanently retained. The agency doesn't keep stuff at their facilities but will transfer them to NARA on a periodic basis, where they are stored in warehouses.
Who created a government document is irrelevant. It is a "government record".
In my agency, we had to take damn "Records Management" training every frigging year.
If people only knew how complex and convoluted the federal government is (behind the scenes), they would do this - 
What is the National Archives and Records Administration?
The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) is the nation's record keeper. Of all documents and materials created in the course of business conducted by the United States federal government, only 1%-3% are so important for legal or historical reasons that they are kept by us forever.
Those valuable records are preserved and are available to you, whether you want to see if they contain clues about your family’s history, need to prove a veteran’s military service, or are researching a historical topic that interests you. Learn more
https://www.archives.gov/about
The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) is the nation's record keeper. Of all documents and materials created in the course of business conducted by the United States federal government, only 1%-3% are so important for legal or historical reasons that they are kept by us forever.
Those valuable records are preserved and are available to you, whether you want to see if they contain clues about your family’s history, need to prove a veteran’s military service, or are researching a historical topic that interests you. Learn more
https://www.archives.gov/about
The "1% - 3% kept "forever" (for historic purposes) are usually those generated by the POTUS (and some others depending on the records schedule).
Every department/agency (including DOD) has a "Records Management" schedule that describes the types of records that need to be maintained and retained (for an assigned amount of time). The Federal Records schedules can be checked out here - https://www.archives.gov/records-mgmt/rcs/schedules/index.html
(DOD's schedules are here - https://www.archives.gov/records-mgmt/rcs/schedules/index.html?dir=/departments/department-of-defense as a direct example and when it comes to things that are Classified, they have a whole other system of tracking and retention that itself is usually "classified" )
So for the "Executive Office of the President", the schedules of what needs to be preserved and stored is here - https://www.archives.gov/records-mgmt/rcs/schedules/index.html?dir=/executive-office-of-the-president
Within that, there is an "Office of Administration Records" that has a schedule defined as this (in part) - PDF - https://www.archives.gov/records-mgmt/rcs/schedules/executive-office-of-the-president/rg-0429/nc1-429-79-02_sf115.pdf
EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT
OFFICE OF ADMINISTRATION
The Office of Administration was established within the
Executive Office of the President by Reorganization Plan No.
1 of 1977 (42 FR 5601). The Office was activated, effective
December 4, 1977, by Executive Order 12028 of December 12,
1977 (42 FR 62895).
The Office of Administration, headed by the Director,
provides administrative support services to all units within
the Executive Office of the President, including those
services which are in direct support of the President. The
services provided by the Office of Administration include
information, personnel, and financial management; data
processing; library services; records management, and
general office operations, such as mail, messenger,
printing, procurement, and supply services.
Records Common to All Offices
1. Office Reference Material.
The Office reference material consists of extra copies of
record materials retained solely for convenience of
reference; information and reference copies of
correspondence and other papers on which no action is
necessary; preliminary drafts of letters, memoranda,
reports, studies, preliminary worksheets and informal notes
that do not add significant data or substance in the final
steps of the preparation of an official record; shorthand
notes, including stenographic notebooks and stenotype tapes,
that have been transcribed; abstracts of correspondence,
route slips and letters of transmittal that do not contain
significant information; stocks of publications and
processed documents maintained for distribution purposes;
catalogues, trade journals, and other publications or
printed material received from other Government agencies,
commercial firms, or private institutions, which require no
action or supplement the official record.
TEMPORARY. Cut-off every 2 years.
Destroy on site when 2 years old or when no
longer needed, whichever is sooner.
2. Personal Papers.
Papers of a private or nonofficial character which pertain
only to an individual's personal affairs that are kept in
the office of an OA employee will be clearly designated by
him as nonofficial and will at all times be filed separately
from the official records of his office. In cases where
matters requiring the transaction of official business are
received in private personal correspondence, the portions of
such correspondence be extracted and made
that pertain to official business a part of the official files.
TEMPORARY. Dispose when no longer needed.
(snip)
OFFICE OF ADMINISTRATION
The Office of Administration was established within the
Executive Office of the President by Reorganization Plan No.
1 of 1977 (42 FR 5601). The Office was activated, effective
December 4, 1977, by Executive Order 12028 of December 12,
1977 (42 FR 62895).
The Office of Administration, headed by the Director,
provides administrative support services to all units within
the Executive Office of the President, including those
services which are in direct support of the President. The
services provided by the Office of Administration include
information, personnel, and financial management; data
processing; library services; records management, and
general office operations, such as mail, messenger,
printing, procurement, and supply services.
Records Common to All Offices
1. Office Reference Material.
The Office reference material consists of extra copies of
record materials retained solely for convenience of
reference; information and reference copies of
correspondence and other papers on which no action is
necessary; preliminary drafts of letters, memoranda,
reports, studies, preliminary worksheets and informal notes
that do not add significant data or substance in the final
steps of the preparation of an official record; shorthand
notes, including stenographic notebooks and stenotype tapes,
that have been transcribed; abstracts of correspondence,
route slips and letters of transmittal that do not contain
significant information; stocks of publications and
processed documents maintained for distribution purposes;
catalogues, trade journals, and other publications or
printed material received from other Government agencies,
commercial firms, or private institutions, which require no
action or supplement the official record.
TEMPORARY. Cut-off every 2 years.
Destroy on site when 2 years old or when no
longer needed, whichever is sooner.
2. Personal Papers.
Papers of a private or nonofficial character which pertain
only to an individual's personal affairs that are kept in
the office of an OA employee will be clearly designated by
him as nonofficial and will at all times be filed separately
from the official records of his office. In cases where
matters requiring the transaction of official business are
received in private personal correspondence, the portions of
such correspondence be extracted and made
that pertain to official business a part of the official files.
TEMPORARY. Dispose when no longer needed.
(snip)
In my agency, one of the admin staff would go around quarterly and gather these types of documents (based on our records schedule), would sort them into boxes, and then the box would be labeled and would be driven over to the Philly area NARA warehouse. The boxes looked something like this -
and they were taken here -
I.e., "DOJ" has NOTHING to do with "records". But if someone fucks around with them and NARA has exhausted its own procedures for document handling and disposition, then DOJ can step in to "take care of the problem" (through legal actions that we are watching them doing right now).
Thank you for the information However, I don't understand ...
... how NARA - or the DoD for that matter - doesn't know EXACTLY what is still missing. It boggles my mind that there isn't a better tracking methodology for highly classified information. I would imagine every single paper that goes to anyone's desk anywhere would be tracked, with a chain of custody, so it is known who has every copy of every bit of sensitive material at all times, and ESPECIALLY the stuff that has to be viewed in a SCIF.
... how NARA - or the DoD for that matter - doesn't know EXACTLY what is still missing. It boggles my mind that there isn't a better tracking methodology for highly classified information. I would imagine every single paper that goes to anyone's desk anywhere would be tracked, with a chain of custody, so it is known who has every copy of every bit of sensitive material at all times, and ESPECIALLY the stuff that has to be viewed in a SCIF.
The "chain of custody" thing is generally associated with the document owner/originator agency. Note what the name "NARA" stands for - "National Archives and Records Administration". They basically become the "storage" entity for government records deemed by an agency as a record. Part of their "About" describes what they are doing - https://www.archives.gov/about/info/whats-a-record.html
So when it comes to "classified" documents, it's really the job of the agency that created and classified it, to keep tabs on the chain of custody.
The PROBLEM is when you get a criminal elected to office who then appoints (with the blessing of a GOP Senate at the time), more criminals in positions who are either ignorant of the procedures or who are deliberately ignoring them.
I am an environmental chemist. Laboratories keep better track of samples - dirt to the layman - than it would seem our most sensitive material is tracked. Everyone knows who has that sample container and what is being done to it because it is tracked. It is tracked from collection in the field, all throughout transport, as it arrives at the lab, and within the lab, all the way to its final deposition when testing has been concluded.
I was a federal analytical chemist whose worksheets had potential to, and in some cases, have been presented as evidence in legal proceedings. Chain of custody for samples to the analysts was a huge thing, so trust me, I know.
NARA would periodically, based on my agency's Records Control Schedule, be given my BOUND diary and analytical workbooks, as well as completed worksheets as well. Samples also had a schedule for preservation and/or destruction.
Each agency, based on general criteria, designates certain types of documents/records to be archived for some "x" amount of time, and after that, they are to be destroyed. There are a tiny number of documents that are kept into perpetuity.
And another thing? If someone who works for the orange pustule says they can't find the document why would anyone believe them? They're paid to lie. They've been caught lying, particularly in this case. So if they say they can't locate it, either they are lying or he has sold or destroyed it.
Well I think that is a given, which is what I posted above when it comes to who might have been appointed by 45 in key positions within many agencies.
For example, what had been widely reported early in that administration, were the issues with Kushner's security clearance and how it was delayed for VALID REASONS, but was eventually pushed through anyway thanks to a carefully-positioned appointee.
In that case, the "handwriting" became HUGE swaths of graffiti written all over many walls!
Don't know what else to tell ya!
... there is no uniform federal chain of custody procedure. I should think there would be, based on the numerous procedures for levels of classification, and especially materials that are to never leave a SCIF.
How is it that an environmental laboratory can keep better track of a jar of dirt than these agencies can keep track of highly classified material? It boggles me. I'm no longer in the lab and I'm a consultant now, but we will not use data derived without a clear chain of custody. You also know you're not allowed to erase or write in pencil, you can't obliterate a correction by scribbling over it - one line only so it can still be read, etc. Pages in notebooks have to be numbered by the notebook manufacturer and hardbound, etc. I've got it! Put scientists in charge of record retention in all agencies! 
And essentially, that's my beef with this. And my utter incredulity that they still don't know all of what they're missing. This is classified material! Kind of more important than a jar of dirt.
And even with your post on the 4th Amendment, I still don't understand how they couldn't or wouldn't get a search warrant for Bedminster. They KNOW he took documents there. Given the fact that he lied about MaL, why the hell wouldn't they have justification to search Bedminster?
What you're essentially saying is that ...
... there is no uniform federal chain of custody procedure. I should think there would be, based on the numerous procedures for levels of classification, and especially materials that are to never leave a SCIF.
... there is no uniform federal chain of custody procedure. I should think there would be, based on the numerous procedures for levels of classification, and especially materials that are to never leave a SCIF.
For certain types of documents, there most likely IS something in statute that is "uniform" for those who maintain that type of info (mostly military and intelligence agencies under DHS, but also obviously including the CIA which is independent). My agency, like the vast majority of agencies, didn't deal with "classified" info, just various degrees of "sensitive" (Public Trust, etc) info.
The thing about our system of government is that it really is "honor system-based". Meaning employees are sworn to uphold the laws and procedures, knowing if they don't, they COULD BE punished (fined and/or jailed). The operative word being "could". It's a matter of whether the allegations of not following proper procedures are pursued and punishment for the breach are followed through.
In the case in the other thread you replied to regarding Teixeira, from what I recall in the media, some heads were rolled among some of the leadership in that unit -
Air Force suspends 2 commanders from unit where Pentagon leak suspect worked
April 26, 2023, 10:05 PM EDT
By Mosheh Gains and Phil Helsel
Two commanders in the military unit in which leak suspect Jack Teixeira worked have been suspended, the Air Force said Wednesday.
The commander of the 102nd Intelligence Support Squadron and a detachment commander were suspended, Air Force spokesperson Ann Stefanek said.
They were suspended “pending further investigation into the unauthorized disclosure of classified information,” the Air Force said.
Teixeira, a Massachusetts Air National Guardsman, was arrested April 13 in connection with the investigation of classified documents that were leaked on the internet.
(snip)
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/air-force-suspends-commanders-unit-jack-teixeira-worked-rcna81697
April 26, 2023, 10:05 PM EDT
By Mosheh Gains and Phil Helsel
Two commanders in the military unit in which leak suspect Jack Teixeira worked have been suspended, the Air Force said Wednesday.
The commander of the 102nd Intelligence Support Squadron and a detachment commander were suspended, Air Force spokesperson Ann Stefanek said.
They were suspended “pending further investigation into the unauthorized disclosure of classified information,” the Air Force said.
Teixeira, a Massachusetts Air National Guardsman, was arrested April 13 in connection with the investigation of classified documents that were leaked on the internet.
(snip)
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/air-force-suspends-commanders-unit-jack-teixeira-worked-rcna81697
So that case shows the "typical" process of dealing with the mishandling of documents, including "classified" ones. However when it comes to a President "mishandling", that introduces a whole other level of problems because the President "automatically" receives clearance to read anything they want at any time, with the caveat that they care enough about this country to not compromise the national interests.
However we now have one who has mishandled critical documents and didn't care for anything but himself. So given it's unprecedented, the steps we see the government going through right now will inevitably form a template for dealing with future breaches of the public trust.
How is it that an environmental laboratory can keep better track of a jar of dirt than these agencies can keep track of highly classified material? It boggles me. I'm no longer in the lab and I'm a consultant now, but we will not use data derived without a clear chain of custody. You also know you're not allowed to erase or write in pencil, you can't obliterate a correction by scribbling over it - one line only so it can still be read, etc. Pages in notebooks have to be numbered by the notebook manufacturer and hardbound, etc. I've got it! Put scientists in charge of record retention in all agencies!
You are preaching to the choir here. If we "messed up" on a worksheet, we didn't "start over", we crossed out, dated, and initialed the "mess up" and continued with the correct info.
But the issue isn't necessarily a lack of "procedures" nor a matter of "keeping better track", it's a matter of enforcing existing procedures (whether how to properly fill out a form to request info, or how to maintain chain of custody/tracking, etc.), and whether higher level staff are ignoring those procedures (as in the above Teixeira case) and failing in their roles (either by lack of care or by order). You have situations where a persistent lack of accountability among higher ups encourages lackadaisical and even rogue behavior because "nothing will be done about it".
Hell, there's a whole movie out there that literally distilled this down to one infamous phrase -
You also might recall incidents in the recent past regarding the movement of nuclear warheads from Minot, ND and a complete failure of following procedures - https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna20926465
So it's not just "chain of custody" issues with documents but even following proper procedures for the handling of literal nuclear warheads!
And essentially, that's my beef with this. And my utter incredulity that they still don't know all of what they're missing. This is classified material! Kind of more important than a jar of dirt.
And even with your post on the 4th Amendment, I still don't understand how they couldn't or wouldn't get a search warrant for Bedminster. They KNOW he took documents there. Given the fact that he lied about MaL, why the hell wouldn't they have justification to search Bedminster?
And even with your post on the 4th Amendment, I still don't understand how they couldn't or wouldn't get a search warrant for Bedminster. They KNOW he took documents there. Given the fact that he lied about MaL, why the hell wouldn't they have justification to search Bedminster?
Let me just say this - during the latter part of my career, one of the training opportunities that I had was in Project Management, and one of the key concepts in that was "scope" and the problem of "scope creep". I.e., you set out to do one thing, and then keep adding on more and more and more to the point that you lose sight of your original goal and little or nothing gets done at all.
If you look at DOJ's tracking page for the many (at least 1000) J6-related cases here - https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases
you will see some entries that say "superseding indictment", meaning that the individual was charged for something initially, but was later charged for something else.
Same here. No one "knew" that there was a grand jury that had been impaneled in FL until literally just before indictments were handed down because all of the focus was on the two grand juries in D.C. And FL was where the indictments happened, NOT in D.C. (although that may still happen there later).
There have been hints that there might be a grand jury empaneled (if not already) in NJ, so we have to stay tuned. Any "warrant" would need to come from NJ and all of the "probable cause" stuff would need to be presented at a grand jury THERE. At this late stage, it would probably be a waste of resources to attempt to raid Bedminster, particularly if they have actual evidence of the disposition of some of those documents via interviews/depositions, grand jury testimony, recordings, phone calls, texts, emails, etc. It has also been reported that 45 traveled with boxes from MAL to Bedminister, so at some point, they have to balance a "law of diminishing returns" with already having enough depth of evidence to reach an indictment and conviction.
And this is especially because the earliest reports from NARA is that some documents may have been or were destroyed, with reports that some had been "ripped up" and taped back together when turned in. In fact, I just found this that underscores the problem and my point -
White House
Meet the guys who tape Trump’s papers back together
By Annie Karni
06/10/2018 04:12 PM EDT
Solomon Lartey spent the first five months of the Trump administration working in the Old Executive Office Building, standing over a desk with scraps of paper spread out in front of him. Lartey, who earned an annual salary of $65,969 as a records management analyst, was a career government official with close to 30 years under his belt. But he had never seen anything like this in any previous administration he had worked for. He had never had to tape the president’s papers back together again.
Armed with rolls of clear Scotch tape, Lartey and his colleagues would sift through large piles of shredded paper and put them back together, he said, “like a jigsaw puzzle.” Sometimes the papers would just be split down the middle, but other times they would be torn into pieces so small they looked like confetti.
It was a painstaking process that was the result of a clash between legal requirements to preserve White House records and President Donald Trump’s odd and enduring habit of ripping up papers when he’s done with them — what some people described as his unofficial “filing system.”
Under the Presidential Records Act, the White House must preserve all memos, letters, emails and papers that the president touches, sending them to the National Archives for safekeeping as historical records. But White House aides realized early on that they were unable to stop Trump from ripping up paper after he was done with it and throwing it in the trash or on the floor, according to people familiar with the practice. Instead, they chose to clean it up for him, in order to make sure that the president wasn’t violating the law.
(snip)
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/10/trump-papers-filing-system-635164
Meet the guys who tape Trump’s papers back together
By Annie Karni
06/10/2018 04:12 PM EDT
Solomon Lartey spent the first five months of the Trump administration working in the Old Executive Office Building, standing over a desk with scraps of paper spread out in front of him. Lartey, who earned an annual salary of $65,969 as a records management analyst, was a career government official with close to 30 years under his belt. But he had never seen anything like this in any previous administration he had worked for. He had never had to tape the president’s papers back together again.
Armed with rolls of clear Scotch tape, Lartey and his colleagues would sift through large piles of shredded paper and put them back together, he said, “like a jigsaw puzzle.” Sometimes the papers would just be split down the middle, but other times they would be torn into pieces so small they looked like confetti.
It was a painstaking process that was the result of a clash between legal requirements to preserve White House records and President Donald Trump’s odd and enduring habit of ripping up papers when he’s done with them — what some people described as his unofficial “filing system.”
Under the Presidential Records Act, the White House must preserve all memos, letters, emails and papers that the president touches, sending them to the National Archives for safekeeping as historical records. But White House aides realized early on that they were unable to stop Trump from ripping up paper after he was done with it and throwing it in the trash or on the floor, according to people familiar with the practice. Instead, they chose to clean it up for him, in order to make sure that the president wasn’t violating the law.
(snip)
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/10/trump-papers-filing-system-635164
Who was going to enforce this? The "invisible" Keebler Elf Jeff Sessions (who was AG at the time)?
Bill Barr?
We're in an unprecedented time, although we first saw WHY the law (PRA) is the way it is due to what Nixon had attempted to do.
But regarding Bedminster - yeah -
Trump documents investigation examined New Jersey club from outset
Exclusive: Prosecutors developed evidence early on of classified documents at Trump’s Bedminster golf club
Hugo Lowell in Washington
@hugolowell
Thu 22 Jun 2023 07.00 EDT
Last modified on Thu 22 Jun 2023 10.18 EDT
Federal prosecutors investigating Donald Trump’s retention of national security material were examining evidence within weeks of the FBI search of Mar-a-Lago last year that he might have handled classified documents at his Bedminster club in New Jersey, according to two people close to the matter.
The indications of classified documents at Bedminster so alarmed prosecutors that they focused part of the investigation on whether Trump might have transported the materials or disclosed their contents there in addition to refusing to return them to the government, the people said.
Trump was charged this month with retaining national defense information and obstruction of justice, in an indictment that also notably alleged that Trump discussed a military plan to attack Iran and waved a classified map of Afghanistan in front of a staffer in 2021 at the New Jersey property.
The suspicion that Trump travelled with classified documents between Mar-a-Lago, his winter residence, and Bedminster, his summer residence, started early in the criminal investigation that intensified after the FBI search and culminated in Trump being accused of violating the Espionage Act.
(snip)
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/22/trump-new-jersey-bedminster-club-documents-mar-a-lago-search
Exclusive: Prosecutors developed evidence early on of classified documents at Trump’s Bedminster golf club
Hugo Lowell in Washington
@hugolowell
Thu 22 Jun 2023 07.00 EDT
Last modified on Thu 22 Jun 2023 10.18 EDT
Federal prosecutors investigating Donald Trump’s retention of national security material were examining evidence within weeks of the FBI search of Mar-a-Lago last year that he might have handled classified documents at his Bedminster club in New Jersey, according to two people close to the matter.
The indications of classified documents at Bedminster so alarmed prosecutors that they focused part of the investigation on whether Trump might have transported the materials or disclosed their contents there in addition to refusing to return them to the government, the people said.
Trump was charged this month with retaining national defense information and obstruction of justice, in an indictment that also notably alleged that Trump discussed a military plan to attack Iran and waved a classified map of Afghanistan in front of a staffer in 2021 at the New Jersey property.
The suspicion that Trump travelled with classified documents between Mar-a-Lago, his winter residence, and Bedminster, his summer residence, started early in the criminal investigation that intensified after the FBI search and culminated in Trump being accused of violating the Espionage Act.
(snip)
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/22/trump-new-jersey-bedminster-club-documents-mar-a-lago-search
I remember when Jack Smith's team was attempting to get 45's team charged with "contempt" (and some of it was probably related to the Bedminster stuff), and the Judge said no. So in that case, this is why we saw these initial "stipulations" by 45's team, to brnging in someone to do "searches", which pretty much put them on the hook for what they found or didn't find (and as we know later, they all quit after the indictments came down).
I don't think Gen. Milley would have kept a copy, but I'm sure he can describe it. Maybe he can verify that Chump had it in his possession.
Or did junior snort coke off it?
