Israeli military says soldier opened fire on hostages holding white flag

[TeamProg]

Source: WaPo

The three hostages killed by Israeli forces in Gaza were carrying a makeshift white flag when a soldier felt threatened and opened fire, a senior Israeli military official said Saturday, adding that an investigation was underway and that the killings were “against our rules of engagement.” Hostages’ families and protesters were frustrated that the Israeli government has not taken a new path beyond a military operation to secure the release of their loved ones.

Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/16/israel-gaza-war-hamas-news-updates/

---

I will repeast: ""Hostages’ families and protesters were frustrated that the Israeli government has not taken a new path beyond a military operation to secure the release of their loved ones.""


It's as if the Isreali gov't cares more about making Hamas look evil than doing good for their own people.. huh.

[RockRaven]

1. We only find out about this one because it was hostages. How many times did

the same scenario happen with unarmed Palestinians so far, yet go undocumented or ignored?

[AloeVera]

38. Yeah I asked that in another thread yesterday...

And was told to take it elsewhere. So here I am, asking the same question. Hope not to be exiled from here too.

[ArkansasDemocrat1]

67. Yep, it'd happened before for sure

[revmclaren]

2. Israeli authorities are taking responsibility for this event

unlike the Palestinian authority who consistently spreads lies and deceptions.

Netanyahu needs to go, but there is much more going on here than just Israeli hard righters. It takes at least two sides to wage a war As more hostage bodies are found as were today, the chances of a timely end to the violence will get further and further away.

[Beastly Boy]

5. They are taking responsibility for it. The blame still belongs to hamas.

[revmclaren]

7. True. I'll edit .

[TeamProg]

8. So they get a brownie point for being honest? And that's NOT the point anyway. see text below::

I will repeat: ""Hostages’ families and protesters were frustrated that the Israeli government has not taken a new path beyond a military operation to secure the release of their loved ones.""

If they actually want to be honest, the gov't should be honest about their own incompetence, right?

[Beastly Boy]

53. If that's what you choose to call it, yes, they absolutely do.

And, if you were to pay attention to the post you are replying to, I wasn't commenting on hostages' families, or the demonstrators, or the Israeli government.

But thanks for repeating what you already repeated. Not for my sake, but for the sake of those who might have missed it the first two times.

[TeamProg]

65. Since the hostages' FAMILIES are demanding it, YES, it needs repeating. Over and over and over.

""Hostages’ families and protesters were frustrated that the Israeli government has not taken a new path beyond a military operation to secure the release of their loved ones.""

[Beastly Boy]

69. Far be it from you to repeat anything on behalf of the hostage families.

Usurping their dignity and status to pass judgements on things you are clueless about is hypocritical to say the least.

And I would much rather hear it from them, which I am fully capable of doing, than hearing what you filtered through your biases from what you filtered from the WP article about what WP said hostage families said.

And repeating it 15 times will only make your hypocrisy 15 times more evident.

[Wonder Why]

3. This is what happens when you teach your soldiers to hate and allow

mistreatment of the enemy. They shoot ar anything and everything even when a white flag is shown. All the blame belongs to the leadership and those who promote retribution against everyone, even the innocent.

[Beastly Boy]

6. How would you respond to an enemy that

doesn't give a shit about rules of war (like white flags or taking hostages) and takes advantage of them to ambush you?

Wouldn't you grow to be a wee bit suspicious of them? Or would you rather die?

[TeamProg]

11. This is about getting hostages back, right? Not a 'kill'em all and let God sort them out' type of thing. Perhaps that

is what many people want though.

I'm not saying that is what YOU want.

[Beastly Boy]

37. So you haven't the faintest clue how to respond to an enemy that doesn't give a flying feck about rules of war.

And, apparently, you don't think Hamas' open disdain for rules of war figures into getting the hostages back.

So let me spell it out. There are four parties involved here:

1 The hostages, taken by force, and if they are still alive held illegally under constant threat of death.
2. The hostage takers, who repeatedly violate rules of war, one of them being taking hostages in the first place.
3. IDF, the only party in a position to get the hostages back.
4. Loudmouth second-guessers who talk a lot about getting hostages back, but when pressed, have no effing clue.

Guess which party attempted to get the hostages back and took the responsibility when they fucked up? This is a multiple choice question. You have a 25% chance to make the right guess randomly.

And, for the second part of this test, guess who is to blame for holding hostages that IDF failed to get back?


Give it a try, see what you come up with... You get an F if your answer to both questions is 4. But I am confident you can do better than that, just by closing your eyes and pointing in the general direction of the questions.

[TeamProg]

39. You can keep moving those goal posts, but you will never find an answer that you like. nt

[Beastly Boy]

49. So you don't have an answer of your own, nor do you want to choose from the four options I offered.

Let's see... I moved the goal post from you having no clue on the subject to... you demonstrating you have no clue.

Can't say it was challenging.

[EX500rider]

61. No, getting the hostages back is secondary, primary is destroying Hamas as governing power in Gaza

So a couple years from now this does not happen all over again.

[TeamProg]

64. Close but not quite on target. The existence of hostages is Israel's excuse for a full blown destruction of Gaza + its

people and hopefully Hamas. Problem is, Israel is just creating more and more hatred.

Ideas are hard to kill.

[EX500rider]

66. No I guarantee you if they had not taken any hotages but killed them all

Israel still would have had to invade and try to wipe out Hamas as the government of Gaza, After Hamas actions they were im a state of full blown war

[Wonder Why]

60. Being suspicious is entirely different than just shooting them down.

[Beastly Boy]

62. It is

Then again, "being suspicious" doesn't begin to describe the threats from the enemy that feels free to violate every single rule of war and break every single international law.

"Fearing for their lives with every move" would be more accurate, but still inadequate to describe their condition.

[NH Ethylene]

73. You realize you are also describing the reality for Palestinian civilians right now, don't you?

Israel also feels free to break every rule of war, and the people of Palestine are "fearing for their lives with every move" right now.

Destroying Hamas will be futile. As long as the people are under oppression, another group will rise up to replace them, most probably made up of the children who are living in terror and seeing their families and friends dying.

[Beastly Boy]

74. No, this is not the case at all.

The position of the Palestinian civilians is far worse: they are unarmed, and they are being used as human shields by the same militants who feel free to violate every single rule of war and break every single international law with regard to them as well as IDF. And these are the people who are supposed to protect them.

And cursory familiarity with rules of war and international law should be sufficient for a reasonable person to conclude that IDF is not in violation of any of them in Gaza, or at the very least they have good grounds to contest the allegations.

[Runningdawg]

4. They have admitted to 3....and a few journalists.

[revmclaren]

9. If the journalists are imbeded with Hamas,

the are casualties of war.

Very sad but absolutely not the same and has absolutely nothing to do with OP.

[Big Blue Marble]

19. The journalists are not embedded with Hamas. They are showing the world what Israel does not want us to see.

Israel is known for killing journalists in the West Bank last year, in Lebanon last month and
90 in last 10 weeks in Gaza, all recently.

It is a international crime under The Geneva Convention to kill journalists.

[revmclaren]

21. You know this how?

Are they in battle zones?

Have they put themselves in harm's way for a story?

They sound like wartime reporters to me. Thousands of journalists have died covering battles.

They may be brave but doing this to 'get the truth out'.? That's pure conjecture.

And a number of journalists dying in strikes against terrorist leaders tends to prove the point of inbeding with hamas.

[Big Blue Marble]

25. Well if you follow the news, the Rutger's reporters were not in an area of combat

and the IDG acknowledged after much lying that a IDF sniper killed the very famous and popular
female reporter in last year in Jenin.

The of the 90 killed in Gaza, I have read that many are targeted and in some cases their families
were targeted and killed. The IDF has a long history of intentional killing of journalists. When
you are a brutal occupier, you have every incentive to suppress the truth.

[revmclaren]

30. I'll be the first to cede to your statement

if you supply a link(s) to the facts that you have stated. Thank you in advance.

[Big Blue Marble]

42. If you really are interested in details of these killings,

they are readily available online.

[Chi67]

47. This is a very thorough article

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/09/middleeast/israel-military-journalists-killed-intl/index.html

[Big Blue Marble]

51. Thanks for adding that link. N/T

[revmclaren]

50. I see...no links.

Thanks anyway.

Bye now.

[revmclaren]

10. Welcome back posting.

[Haggis 4 Breakfast]

72. Actually, the number of journalists murdered is 35.

This is from Reuters and others. None of these people were armed. All were wearing PRESS identifications.

We will never know the number of people who have been "inconveniently" murdered. Hostages, journalists, cameramen, Israeli soldiers ("Friendly Fire" - one of the most disgusting terms ever coined), who's next ?

[WhatTheFlux]

12. The Hannibal Directive

It's IDF policy. Google The Hannibal Directive.

[revmclaren]

14. That conspiracy theory is voided by

the fact that Israeli forces have successfully rescued soldiers held hostage.

Also the controversial The Hannibal Directive was canceled years ago and it would be screamed by al Jazeera and other outlets if still in use.

If so, please supply links.

[revmclaren]

16. Welcome to DU.

Enjoy your stay.

[ShazzieB]

44. The Hannibal protocol is no longer in effect.

Israeli army cancels controversial Hannibal Protocol (28 June 2016, 1:27 pm) https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-chief-puts-an-end-to-contentious-hannibal-protocol/

Thanks for playing.
.

[lapucelle]

45. This isn't isn't IDF policy.

Welcome back to DU!

[TexasDem69]

13. If Hamas had not kidnapped these individuals

During the horrific attacks on October 7 they would still be alive. Blame Hamas, stop trying to place blame on Israel. It’s unbecoming and unjust.

[TeamProg]

15. If *Israeli "settlers" weren't illegally invading and occupying Palestinians' land*, Hamas wouldn't have been

voted into power.

* As of January 2023, there are 144 Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including 12 in East Jerusalem.[27] There are over 100 Israeli illegal outposts in the West Bank. In total, over 450,000 Israeli settlers live in the West Bank excluding East Jerusalem, with an additional 220,000 Jewish settlers residing in East Jerusalem.[28][29] Additionally, over 25,000 Israeli settlers live in the Golan Heights.[30] Israeli settlements had previously been built within the Egyptian territory of the Sinai Peninsula, and within the Palestinian territory of the Gaza Strip; however, Israel evacuated and dismantled the 18 Sinai settlements following the 1979 Egypt–Israel peace agreement and all of the 21 settlements in the Gaza Strip, along with four in the West Bank, in 2005 as part of its unilateral disengagement from Gaza.[31]

The transfer by an occupying power of its civilian population into the territory it occupies is a war crime,[32][33][34] although Israel disputes that this applies to the West Bank.[35][36] On 20 December 2019, the International Criminal Court announced an International Criminal Court investigation in Palestine into alleged war crimes. The presence and ongoing expansion of existing settlements by Israel and the construction of settlement outposts is frequently criticized as an obstacle to the Israeli–Palestinian peace process by the Palestinians,[37] and third parties such as the OIC,[38] the United Nations,[39] Russia,[40][41] the United Kingdom,[42] France,[43] and the European Union have echoed those criticisms.[44] The international community considers the settlements to be illegal under international law,[45] and the United Nations has repeatedly upheld the view that Israel's construction of settlements constitutes a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.[46][47] The United States for decades considered the settlements to be "illegitimate",[39] until the Trump administration in November 2019 shifted its position,[48] declaring "the establishment of Israeli civilian settlements in the West Bank is not per se inconsistent with international law."[49]

* The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) holds that the establishment of Israeli settlements violate Fourth Geneva Convention. The ICRC also holds that the displacement of Palestinians that may occur due to the settlements also violates Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

[revmclaren]

17. So you are blaming the victims of Hamas

instead of blaming Hamas...terrorist organization for the reason hamas is in power.

Long time hatred of Jews doesn't play into whole equation?

Wow.

[Big Blue Marble]

20. The poster is blaming the policies of an apartheid right-wing government

who neither acts in the best interests of its own people or the people they brutally keep
under occupation for over fifty years.

[revmclaren]

23. That is victim blaming.

Almost all of the victims raped, slaughtered and burned by these 'sufferers of occupation ' including innocent women and children had nothing to do with the occupation.

Interesting you seem to be following me around posts just to answer questions of mine to other posters.

I really would like them to answer instead of a proxy, thank you very much.

[Big Blue Marble]

28. That is not victim blaming.

Are you really accusing me of stalking you? I think that may be alertable.

[revmclaren]

33. It is victim blaming.

Making excuses why hamas did what it did using the occupation as an excuse because they are.... well, fill in the blank.

And if you think my stating that you are answering for other posters in multiple posts is stalking, then report me. Here is an example of real stalking....sent to my private DU mail.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18530263

Believe me, you ain't ther yet.

[Big Blue Marble]

41. Sorry, revmclaren

That is horrible. Pretty much makes me cry that someone here would be so vile to you.

I had no intention of reporting you or even alerting the post. I was not following you
around only responding to several of your posts which just happened to be on the. same
thread.

We will just have to disagree on who is the victim. As a student of the Middle East for
over four decades, I know this conflict is complicated. Israel has occupied Palestinian
lands with increasing brutality and cruelty while continuing to steal territories
from the Palestinian people while putting over million Palestinians men in prison for resisting
the onslaught.

The 800,000 illegal settlers have added much intensity to this cruelty. Often they destroy
Palestinian homes, harass, and even kill Palestinian farmers and others in an effort to drive
them from their lands under the protection of the IDF These lived experiences continue to
breed increasing anger and resistance throughout the occupied lands

We are in full agreement, that Hamas in all their horrible violent behavior and evil goals of
genocide is the cause of this most recent horrific attack. The people of southern Israel were
the victims of of nightmarish atrocities and all Israelis as well as Jews everywhere feel
endangered by the assault.

Both sides of this conflict have contributed to the increasing spiral of violence and
it is obvious from this terrifying attack by Hamas, that each side must find a non-violent
solution that helps both peoples live in safety and security.

[revmclaren]

55. We are also in agreement that Netanyahu

needs to go. His governing has caused great damage in Israel.

Unfortunately the floodgates were opened on10/7 and it will be very difficult to put the proverbial genii back in the bottle.

[Big Blue Marble]

56. Yes, he has to go and with the far right ministers who are controlling him

And I agree, Israelis will understandably lean right in the need to protect themselves.
It is doubtful than many will be inclined to discuss any peaceful agreements with
the Palestinians any time soon.

[TeamProg]

24. No, that's unreasonable stretch to say the least. Don't put words in my mouth. Snd

besides, part of the reason that Hamas has so much power is because Netanyahu preferred Hamas over the P. A.

Look it up!

[TexasDem69]

18. So now you are excusing Hamas' attacks

On civilians, the murder of babies and children, and rape of numerous women. And blaming Israel for that too. Appalling.

[TeamProg]

22. Who killed he three hostages again?

[revmclaren]

26. OMG. Did you actually post that?

What the holy fuck does that have to do with victim blaming?

Cant you even defend your horrendous post without a 'look over there at 3 dead soldiers?

[TeamProg]

31. Three dead hostages, not "soldiers". You are mistaken.

You wrote:”” Cant you even defend your horrendous post without a 'look over there at 3 dead soldiers?””

[revmclaren]

34. Sorry...hostages.

But I really dont think as they set out on their mission they thought to themselves 'I'm going to kill me some hostages'. And the soldier who fired for whatever reason, fear, PTSD, anger...will be punished.

Hamas took the hostages that died plus hundreds of others plus raping and murdering hundreds of others...and you blamed this on the occupation.

I'm done responding to you on this post.

When I think I've seen everything since 10/7 even I can be shocked.

[TeamProg]

40. Of COURSE it's because of the occupation (and the internment)! At least you agree that Palestinian's rightful land has

been occupied illegally!

[RandomNumbers]

43. The three hostages were killed by Hamas.

IDF soldiers ultimately pulled the trigger.

But they would not have been escaping hostages trying to cross a battlefield, if not for Hamas abducting them in the first place.

The IDF soldiers should be treated just as any soldier would be, who disobeys their training and kills people on their own side.

It is reasonable to wonder if these IDF soldiers have also killed innocent Palestinians in the same manner. But ultimately all these deaths fall on Hamas for starting this war.

[TeamProg]

29. So, I post what is considered international law and you post

that I’m blaming the victim. That’s one or two degrees from complete idiocy.

[Srkdqltr]

32. There is so much blame to go around. It's impossible to justify all the killing.

It will just go on and on. I think Biden should tell both sides to stfu and stop all this.
But the what about this and what about that will not stop till ...... how many are dead?
Sad for both sides. I'm afraid of us all here being drawn into it because people can't think beyond their grievances real or imagined.

[TeamProg]

35. Hear! Hear! But would Bibi stop? Doesn't look that way.

Sen Bernie Sanders wanted a cease-fire order attached to a recent funding bill. So he doesn’t trust Bibi either.

[Srkdqltr]

36. The problem is that if you go back 10 years for blame others will go back 20.

They will go back to the dawn of time to justify being mad at each other.

[Aussie105]

57. Maybe . . .just go back to 1947 and say . . .

if only the UN had come up with a smarter solution to give the European Jews a homeland.

Playing the blame game is fun! Just stop where you feel justified in what you do and think.

[Srkdqltr]

58. If only. Sad words and way too true.

The problem is the blame shit will travel all over the world and never stop. People who have no connection with this will be drawn in.
Soon as you say one side is the problem over the other, you are hooked in.

[lapucelle]

48. Senator Sanders spoke about a ceasfire on December 9 on Face the Nation.

[IronLionZion]

46. IDF soldiers are shooting shirtless civilians holding white flags and no weapons

because they are not there to rescue the hostages. Unless someone wants to claim it's possible that shirtless people are hiding suicide bombs in their pants.

[revmclaren]

52. Soldier...not soldiers.

He will be debriefed and depending on mindset...PTSD, fear, anger...will be punished.

He'll never be forgiven for his actions either way.

As for Hamas...they simply murder anyone that doesn't support them be it civilians in gaza, or innocent children, women and men in Israel. And they have killed or will kill more hostages by direct action or by the results of taking hostages on 10/7

And now Hamas terrorists have been caught in Germany.

When did Germany occupy the west bank or bomb gaza?

[IronLionZion]

54. "Hamas kills civilians too" is not the best excuse

but it is the only excuse since there aren't many in power over there who don't want to kill civilians.

[Aussie105]

59. So sorry.

Collateral damage, friendly fire, etc.
It will soon be forgotten. Fog of war and all that.

War is a bad place for anyone.

And if you are a soldier who has been out front too long, every living thing will seem a threat.
Every person will be seen as a potential threat, a Hamas fighter, a Hamas operative, a Hamas sympathiser.
Be out there long enough, and even the few remaining dogs, cats and cockroaches you spot will seem a threat.

[TeamProg]

63. Again, that is not the point. Read again, please::

""Hostages’ families and protesters were frustrated that the Israeli government has not taken a new path beyond a military operation to secure the release of their loved ones.""

There ARE other paths to getting the hostages back.

[Kennah]

68. This happens in war. Friendly fire kills just as well as enemy fire.

[EX500rider]

70. Yeah, quite common

The official friendly fire casualty rate is pegged at 17% for Desert Storm.

[Kennah]

71. Wiki has it at 24% - 35 of 148, and it didn't stop when the fighting ended

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War#Friendly_fire

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/friendly-fire-12-03-2003/#:~:text=A%20total%20of%2035%20Americans,Americans%20killed%20by%20friendly%20fire.