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riversedge

(70,715 posts)
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 03:04 PM Feb 2024

Trump attorney wants to propose a 'counter-judgment' in $355M civil fraud case: court docs

Source: raw story




Kathleen Culliton
February 21, 2024 11:52AM ET



Former President Donald Trump’s attorney Wednesday demanded the chance to propose a “counter-judgement” in his client’s $355 million civil fraud trial, court records show.

Clifford Robert filed a letter in the New York City civil court addressed to Justice Arthur Engoron complaining of the landmark ruling that also banned Trump from doing business in the state for three years.

Robert argues Trump was “deprived” the chance to speak out against the ruling before it was filed.

“Because the decision ordinarily entails more complicated relief, the instruction contemplates notice to the opponent so that both parties may either agree on a draft or prepare counter proposals to be settled before the court,” Robert argues.

“Defendants therefore request that the Court set a return date for the Proposed Judgment that affords Defendants sufficient time to submit a proposed counter-judgment.”
.......................

Engoron slapped back to that message with a scathing letter of his own in which he called Robert’s letter “completely out of bounds.”

“You and your co-counsel have been questioning my impartiality since the early days of this case, presumably because I sometimes rule against your clients,” Engoron wrote..................



...............

Read more: https://www.rawstory.com/trump-engoron-ruling/



I'd tell Trump to take a long walk in the rain!!--and get his hair wet-then he would really have something to be angry about!!
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Trump attorney wants to propose a 'counter-judgment' in $355M civil fraud case: court docs (Original Post) riversedge Feb 2024 OP
You. Aren't. In. Charge. underpants Feb 2024 #1
Thank you fir that @underpants. That's tghe problem, TSF thinks he is in control of everything. n/t iluvtennis Feb 2024 #4
"and get his hair wet..." mike_c Feb 2024 #2
They misnamed his book... getagrip_already Feb 2024 #3
They should have plea bargained bmichaelh Feb 2024 #5
By way of clarification: the Judge has NOT yet responded to the letter in question. onenote Feb 2024 #6
"Rawstory" is all about the clicks. They take others' work and "jazz it up." It shouldn't even be allowed in LBN. PSPS Feb 2024 #14
Isn't Raw Story owned by AlterNet now? soldierant Feb 2024 #18
I've got Judge Engoron's response,"Fat Chance!" Ray Bruns Feb 2024 #7
This appear to be a way to try to delay the entry of a final judgement LetMyPeopleVote Feb 2024 #8
Go pound sand. Novara Feb 2024 #9
Just what would a counter judgment entail. Old Crank Feb 2024 #10
He didn't have a Board of Directors- that had passed by me underpants Feb 2024 #13
He thinks he is in a movie dbonds Feb 2024 #11
Please, somebody tell me ! essaynnc Feb 2024 #12
Defense attorney files a moniss Feb 2024 #15
LOL "Trump was "deprived" the chance to speak " LOL IcyPeas Feb 2024 #16
This isn't about whether Trump was deprived of the right to speak. onenote Feb 2024 #19
Thank you for this moniss Feb 2024 #23
Agreed. And I'm guessing that is what Engoron will say when he addresses the issue. onenote Feb 2024 #24
Thank you! Ms. Toad Feb 2024 #38
WOW, now Pendejo45's attorney thinks that courts should negotiate on decisions? ... aggiesal Feb 2024 #17
No. This is a peculiarity of how decisions are finalized in NY civil cases. onenote Feb 2024 #21
Isn't it cute how he thinks he has a say in the judgment? Novara Feb 2024 #20
See posts 19 and 21. onenote Feb 2024 #22
You had your chance to plea bargain... Mawspam2 Feb 2024 #25
Trump proposes ZERO fine. And the court pay him for his time, court costs, legal fees and damages. Irish_Dem Feb 2024 #26
Trump: "you aren't the boss of me! you aren't the boss of me!" C_U_L8R Feb 2024 #27
People in Hell want ice water Donny Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Feb 2024 #28
Judge Engoron will have to remind them dflprincess Feb 2024 #29
that letter is just begging for court sanctions for the lawyers. ZonkerHarris Feb 2024 #30
Actually, its not. onenote Feb 2024 #45
No. Marcuse Feb 2024 #31
When I was in Greece Old Crank Feb 2024 #32
"That's NOT how it works! That's not how ANY of this works!" Oopsie Daisy Feb 2024 #33
Who are you quoting? onenote Feb 2024 #40
This funny commercial... Oopsie Daisy Feb 2024 #42
Where did these moron attorneys Dump hires go to law school? SouthernDem4ever Feb 2024 #34
They may be morons, but they are relying on a procedure that is part of New York law. onenote Feb 2024 #39
Is there even such a thing? 2naSalit Feb 2024 #35
Yes and yes. onenote Feb 2024 #44
Engeron is following the same procedure followed in all cases Jersey Devil Feb 2024 #36
The excerpt is a bit misleading. Ms. Toad Feb 2024 #37
Trump had a chance to speak. He chose True Blue American Feb 2024 #41
This isn't about Trump speaking or not speaking at trial. onenote Feb 2024 #43

getagrip_already

(15,191 posts)
3. They misnamed his book...
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 03:20 PM
Feb 2024

It should be "The Fart of the Deal".

Is he trying to kill engoron by making him laugh to death?

I want to make a counter offer of my sentence has worked exactly nowhere with any judge, if it has even been tried.

Fine, my counter is a set of sanctions on all attorneys involved for frivolous and unbecoming conduct.

onenote

(42,989 posts)
6. By way of clarification: the Judge has NOT yet responded to the letter in question.
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 03:40 PM
Feb 2024

Thanks to the inability or unwillingness of Raw Story's writers to coherently describe things without unnecessarily adding confusing hyperbole, it appears that the OP may inadvertently create the impression that Judge Engoron has responded to the letter sent by Trump's attorneys demanding a chance to propose a counter-judgment. He has not. The letter referenced in the portion of the OP that quotes from the Raw Story article is a letter that Judge Engoron sent back on February 8 responding to Trump's lawyers objection to the Judge asking for input about reports that Weisselberg had committed perjury. And, FWIW, the "completely out of bounds" line in that letter was directed specifically in reference to Trump's lawyers attempting to bring Michael Cohen's credibility into the discussion.

I really wish Raw Story was off-limits here.

PSPS

(13,667 posts)
14. "Rawstory" is all about the clicks. They take others' work and "jazz it up." It shouldn't even be allowed in LBN.
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 04:55 PM
Feb 2024

LetMyPeopleVote

(146,501 posts)
8. This appear to be a way to try to delay the entry of a final judgement
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 04:00 PM
Feb 2024

The entry of a final judgment starts the thirty days to file a bond and TFG will try to delay this process. TFG may force a hearing but the judge will not change his ruling and a judgement will be entered after such hearing.

Old Crank

(3,752 posts)
10. Just what would a counter judgment entail.
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 04:09 PM
Feb 2024

Hope for less of a fine. Hope for removal of the oversight of his finances?

underpants

(183,298 posts)
13. He didn't have a Board of Directors- that had passed by me
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 04:45 PM
Feb 2024

until my wife were talking about it I guess Friday night.

I know there was no internal audit. Did he even have an annual audit? He probably considered the process of tax filing as close enough for him.

essaynnc

(810 posts)
12. Please, somebody tell me !
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 04:42 PM
Feb 2024

WTF is a "Counter Judgement"?

Sounds like something that you know who made up, just to gum up the works. I can't imagine that this is a real thang!!!!

moniss

(4,274 posts)
15. Defense attorney files a
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 05:00 PM
Feb 2024

false statement with the court. His client was not deprived from speaking both in court and out prior to the ruling. His client spoke outside the court ad nauseum and also inside the court. He was told to keep his comments in court to the evidence presented in this phase concerning levying for damages and in what amount. He instead chose to go on a rant alleging mistreatment by the court and those in government. That was his chance to give evidence to mitigate the dollar amounts and all along he had the opportunity to propose a settlement amount with the AG for presentation to Engoron. Instead he chose to occupy his time with unfounded personal attacks on the AG, Judge Engoron, court personnel and others. There was no deprivation. That is a clear lie by the defense attorney because it cannot be said to be made with a good faith belief as to truthfulness.

IcyPeas

(22,002 posts)
16. LOL "Trump was "deprived" the chance to speak " LOL
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 05:11 PM
Feb 2024

Seriously! Poor trump. He never gets a chance to speak. Unfair! Unfair!!

Robert argues Trump was “deprived” the chance to speak out against the ruling before it was filed.

onenote

(42,989 posts)
19. This isn't about whether Trump was deprived of the right to speak.
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 06:44 PM
Feb 2024

The issue raised by Trump's attorney has nothing to do with what went on at the trial. It relates to post-verdict procedure in New York governing the entry of the judgement of the court. In some instances, the deciding judge will conclude his decision with a directive to the parties to submit or settle a draft "judgment" implementing the court's decision. In such cases, the draft judgment has to be served by the winning party on the losing party and the losing party can offer a counter-proposal. The courts have indicated that this procedure makes sense for complicated verdicts whereas a simple procedure where the clerk is directed to enter judgment applies in other cases.

In this case, Judge Engoron did not direct the judgment to be submitted or settled by the parties. Rather, he simply directed the Clerk to enter judgment. Trump's attorney apparently -- at least this is what it seems like to me -- is arguing that because the NY Court of Appeals has stated that the use of the submit or settle procedure is "appropriate" where the verdict is complicated, the Judge's order should be read as including that directive, or maybe they're suggesting without actually saying it that the judge erred by not specifically stating that directive. However, as best I can tell, the decision relied on by Trump's attorney doesn't say that a submit or settle directive is mandatory in any particular case, but rather that it might be appropriate. Thus Engoron's direction to the clerk to enter judgment should end the discussion. The one complicating factor is that the AG went ahead and submitted the judgment even though the court didn't direct her to do so. I'm not familiar enough with NY Civil Procedure to know whether that was necessary or appropriate or whether it somehow triggers the service and counter-proposal requirements applicable to a judge's order to settle the judgment.

In this context, it is not a directive to "settle the case" as that term is commonly understood. It is to agree on the wording of the judgment based on the Court's order. While this case may seem complex, the judge's order is pretty clear and straightforward which is why, I suspect, Engoron simply directed the clerk to enter judgment based on the decision.

For anyone curious about this, here's a link to the decision that Trump's attorney relies on. I don't think it says what he's hoping it says. https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/5914825fadd7b04934494a85

moniss

(4,274 posts)
23. Thank you for this
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 06:55 PM
Feb 2024

and I would comment that the complexity that they may be relying upon isn't there in this verdict. The verdict, as I saw it, didn't contain a complex labyrinth of "on the edge" legal reasoning and citations to support novel conclusions. Engoron I think was right as you point out to just submit it to his clerk for entry.

Ms. Toad

(34,242 posts)
38. Thank you!
Thu Feb 22, 2024, 11:05 AM
Feb 2024

I figured the request wasn't completely out of the blue - enough of Trump's attorneys have ended up in legal trouble for trying crazy stunts that I would have expected there to be at least a smidgen of legal basis for the request. But at this point I'd only gotten as far as sorting out that the scathing response was old news, in response to a different communication.

aggiesal

(8,989 posts)
17. WOW, now Pendejo45's attorney thinks that courts should negotiate on decisions? ...
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 05:16 PM
Feb 2024

Negotiations are during the plea bargain phase (which is anytime before the final judges decision).
But Pendejo45 is so arrogant, he didn't believe he'd ever suffer any consequences to his actions,
that now he wants to negotiate?
He's living up to his Pendejo nickname.

onenote

(42,989 posts)
21. No. This is a peculiarity of how decisions are finalized in NY civil cases.
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 06:51 PM
Feb 2024

The term "settle" doesn't have the meaning typically ascribed to it in this instance. Rather it relates to the wording of the judgment when the court directs the winning party to write up the order and submit it to the clerk rather than simply have the clerk enter it without further input. It is a process used where the details of the how the court's decision is to be implemented aren't spelled out in the judge's decision. I recommend you take a look at the case cited by Trump's attorneys, which I don't think requires what he claims it requires.

https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/5914825fadd7b04934494a85

See also the following for a more plain language explanation: https://www.nycourts.gov/legacyPDFs/courts/6jd/forms/SRForms/orders_proced.pdf

Mawspam2

(759 posts)
25. You had your chance to plea bargain...
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 08:15 PM
Feb 2024

...when the charges were filed. You could have settled for less than $100M before discovery. You didn't.

You could have settled while the trial was going on when it clearly wasn't going your way. You didn't.

My ruling is now final. You may appeal to a higher court after posting the appropriate bond. Otherwise, STFU!

Irish_Dem

(49,225 posts)
26. Trump proposes ZERO fine. And the court pay him for his time, court costs, legal fees and damages.
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 08:20 PM
Feb 2024

And judges issues a formal apology and tells Trump how great he is.

onenote

(42,989 posts)
45. Actually, its not.
Thu Feb 22, 2024, 11:22 AM
Feb 2024

It's raising an objection based on the rules of Civil Procedure in New York. While the judge has concluded that a hearing isn't necessary, he responded by giving Trump's attorneys an opportunity to point out any discrepancies between the judgment filed by the AG with the Clerk and the judge's decision. They have responded by pointing out that the judgment filed with the Clerk contains the wrong date for interest to accrue with respect to the judgment against Weisselberg and the wrong addresses for the defendants. While these may seem like minor discrepancies, they are an example of why there is a "counter-proposal" procedure.

Old Crank

(3,752 posts)
32. When I was in Greece
Thu Feb 22, 2024, 07:03 AM
Feb 2024

You could accept whatever verdict and punishment or you could appeal. This appeal could and in some cases give you a harsher penalty.

The judge should counter offer with a judgment 1 order of magnitude higher than his first amount....

SouthernDem4ever

(6,618 posts)
34. Where did these moron attorneys Dump hires go to law school?
Thu Feb 22, 2024, 08:23 AM
Feb 2024

They act like they are in debate class performing in front of judges still in kindergarten. If they went to good law schools, they must be a huge embarrassment.

onenote

(42,989 posts)
39. They may be morons, but they are relying on a procedure that is part of New York law.
Thu Feb 22, 2024, 11:05 AM
Feb 2024

I'm guessing you are not familiar with that procedure.

2naSalit

(87,297 posts)
35. Is there even such a thing?
Thu Feb 22, 2024, 08:27 AM
Feb 2024

And would they even, under normal circumstances, have standing to do that if it is a thing?

Jersey Devil

(9,882 posts)
36. Engeron is following the same procedure followed in all cases
Thu Feb 22, 2024, 09:24 AM
Feb 2024

In civil cases, following a judge's ruling from the bench, the judge will turn to one of the lawyers, usually the winning side, and tell them to "prepare and order or judgment". That side, within a few days, will submit a proposed judgment to the court incorporating everthing the judge decided, sending a copy to the other side so that they can object to it and perhaps offer substitute language in part where they can argue the written judgment does not accurately reflect the judge's decision. If they can't iron it out the judge will decide whether to sign the judgment as is or make revisions himself. This is important so that the court's findings are very clear in any future enforcement proceedings or on any apppeal. It is a process that certainly does not take a month.

Ms. Toad

(34,242 posts)
37. The excerpt is a bit misleading.
Thu Feb 22, 2024, 10:58 AM
Feb 2024

The message Engoran "slapped back to" is an earlier message which Roberts sent following Engoron's request for information about Weiselberg.

True Blue American

(18,007 posts)
41. Trump had a chance to speak. He chose
Thu Feb 22, 2024, 11:08 AM
Feb 2024

To show his a**. Just like he did in the E. Jean Carroll case. Could not keep his mouth shut so now he is paying!{

onenote

(42,989 posts)
43. This isn't about Trump speaking or not speaking at trial.
Thu Feb 22, 2024, 11:17 AM
Feb 2024

It's about the procedural rules governing the entry of a judgment following a decision in a civil case.

See posts 19 and 21.

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