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bemildred

(90,061 posts)
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 11:44 AM Jun 2013

Diplomats from Several Countries Set Up Meeting to Discuss Snowden Case

Source: Softpedia/El Comercio (near as I can tell)

Diplomats from Russia, Cuba, Venezuela and Ecuador will meet on Monday to discuss the situation of the ex CIA employee responsible for unveiling NSA spying programs that concern the entire globe, El Comercio reports.

The diplomats are supposed to have a roundtable discussion with human rights activists in Russian headquarters of the Public Chamber of Russia, in order to give “a social value to the situation.”


Read more: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Diplomants-from-Several-Countries-Set-Up-Meeting-to-Discuss-Snowden-Case-364200.shtml

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Diplomats from Several Countries Set Up Meeting to Discuss Snowden Case (Original Post) bemildred Jun 2013 OP
That's cute...I wonder if freedom of assembly in Russia will come up BeyondGeography Jun 2013 #1
Look over there! wtmusic Jun 2013 #3
That quaint old right? That's way pre-9/11. JDPriestly Jun 2013 #7
Surveillance needs to be mediated by the courts and Congress BeyondGeography Jun 2013 #9
Ask Bimmey and a few others just how good those procedures worked nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #10
And here we are talking about it, freely I might add BeyondGeography Jun 2013 #12
Dictablandas rely on maintaining the ilusion nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #13
And, hopefully, more remedies will be pursued now that Snowden JDPriestly Jun 2013 #18
I will confess to knee-jerk defense of the President on occasion BeyondGeography Jun 2013 #19
Whereas I do not blame Obama at all, at all, at all. JDPriestly Jun 2013 #22
Binney and other NSA whistleblowers were prosecuted. We aren't so free, are we? leveymg Jun 2013 #26
His father is talking about when he returns to the US.. monmouth3 Jun 2013 #2
You must be kidding. wtmusic Jun 2013 #4
How would he have applied for a visa to some country other than JDPriestly Jun 2013 #8
Oh sure, Comrade Eddie's not a flight risk. I'm sure any judge would grant him bail. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #20
I still think Breitbart and O'Keefe EC Jun 2013 #5
I think the social value to the situation is already pretty clear, just needs fine tuning. Jefferson23 Jun 2013 #6
"Assessment" would be better. Igel Jun 2013 #16
I think he means something like what we call "public interest". bemildred Jun 2013 #17
Perhaps one of them will have Snowden on board when they all fly home. nt ancianita Jun 2013 #11
Maybe, I'm inclined to doubt it. bemildred Jun 2013 #15
He probably is happy there, in Kaspersky land. There are those who might be holding him, as well, ancianita Jun 2013 #23
Well, you have to understand, the Russians don't care, they think this is funny. bemildred Jun 2013 #24
It has occurred to me that they're as good at snooping as any nation, and that whatever ancianita Jun 2013 #25
" . . .with human rights activists in Russian headquarters of the Public Chamber of Russia, . . " Major Hogwash Jun 2013 #14
+1000 Tarheel_Dem Jun 2013 #21
This story is getting hilarious. Ecuadorean leakers to be prosecuted. Intermission: Ballerina. UTUSN Jun 2013 #27

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
3. Look over there!
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 12:10 PM
Jun 2013

Nice try.

It's kinda cute that our administration is ignoring the evidence of illegal NSA spying.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
7. That quaint old right? That's way pre-9/11.
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 12:22 PM
Jun 2013

At least we used to be able to brag about how free we were.

But now, we are letting our government eat away at our Bill of Rights.

Pretty awful.

And repression is bad wherever it is, Russia, the old USSR, NAZI Germany, East Germany, Cuba, Venezuela, Ecuador, Chile, South Africa, and the US.

Get rid of surveillance in the US before it turns into repression.

The good ole' USA: Do as I say, not as I do.

BeyondGeography

(39,374 posts)
9. Surveillance needs to be mediated by the courts and Congress
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 12:31 PM
Jun 2013

We have the proper mechanisms here; they need to be applied. And, yes, the Obama Administration has been too eager to hide behind state secrets privilege. Binney did the country a service; Snowden, who flipped secrets to real-world repressive governments, not so much.

And repression is bad wherever it is, Russia, the old USSR, NAZI Germany, East Germany, Cuba, Venezuela, Ecuador, Chile, South Africa, and the US.


Please get a grip.


 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
10. Ask Bimmey and a few others just how good those procedures worked
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 12:52 PM
Jun 2013

you might want to ask Frank too... and that is the top of the damn iceberg.

They tried to go through official channels.

BeyondGeography

(39,374 posts)
12. And here we are talking about it, freely I might add
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 12:58 PM
Jun 2013

So total damnation isn't upon us yet (nor should we be listed alongside Nazi Germany on any repression roll call, or Russia or any of the states at the Snowden Posturing Summit referenced in the OP). And we still have a decent court like the 9th Circuit that reinstated the Jewel case, meaning there are actual legal remedies that can be pursued.





JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
18. And, hopefully, more remedies will be pursued now that Snowden
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 02:32 PM
Jun 2013

has brought some of the secret documents to light. Maybe a court will actually consider a case. That would be a start.

We have to remain vigilant.

I remember a time when African-Americans in the South were treated like another species. It was horrible. And the infrastructure that economically disadvantaged African-Americans disadvantaged the entire South.

This kind of surveillance will, in time, deal a severe blow to creativity and communication in our society. It's wrong. It's detrimental to all Americans.

Since the end of WWII a tiny elite, the intelligence industry, has developed. That elite, and especially the tiny clique at the top of that elite, has an advantage in terms of knowledge, knowledge of the movements of others, of the words and thoughts and associations of others. The elite is not entirely concentrated in the government.

But the elite that is concentrated within the government has enormous power over our lives -- the power to investigate us, the power to make laws that we are likely to violate, the power to charge us with crimes, the power to collect evidence, the power to lie about us, the power to cheat us, the power to tax us, the power to kill us arbitrarily without trial -- almost as much power as God.

This elite, the one in the government (although some of the others are almost as bad) and in the government contractors has formed a cabal, an out-of-control, corrupt, fearful, controlling cabal in our government. The members of this cabal appoint each other, move in and out of the government and link private industry elites to the inner government elite. A good part of this cabal is centered in the NSA.

The NSA with its massive surveillance program and its influence on our military and foreign intelligence as well as domestic FBI is a rogue government within our government. It is incompatible with our democracy and downright dangerous to anyone it does not like.

Just a warning. Watch out. Because this cabal, this rogue government within our government is watching you. And it is going to develop and purchase more and more invasive technologies to be able to watch you more intensely and more pervasively.

I don't like it. Unfortunately, our courts and Congress are incapable of doing anything to protect us from that rogue government. The courts are unable to exceed the limits of the rules of their courts and the Constitution. And Congress is confused, full of its own cabals and cliques and not quick-witted enough to keep up with the rogue government in the NSA and other agencies, much less outsmart it.

So I don't see much hope. And the fact that so many people on DU defend the surveillance just makes me think that they are wanna' be or fantasy members of that cabal, of that elite, of that rogue government.

Yes, China, Russia, Venezuela, Cuba, Yemen, Syria, Iran, etc. all these countries are worse than we are. But we are not living in those countries. We live here. Our country is our responsibility.

We need to stop fooling ourselves and figure out how to dismantle the rogue government.

Obama couldn't do it if he wanted to because he is all by himself.

It's up to us to forget the media and the propaganda and elect a government that looks out for our interests and not just those of the rich and powerful and of the rogue cabal/government. It starts with sweeping out of Congress of all those who are willing to compromise our rights. Unfortunately, Dianne Feinstein has just been re-elected. That was a sad day.

BeyondGeography

(39,374 posts)
19. I will confess to knee-jerk defense of the President on occasion
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 02:58 PM
Jun 2013

Who is up against as nihilistic a party as the developed world can offer. I also think politicians on our side take advantage of the atmosphere to abuse our trust, human nature being what it us. I am interested to see how Obama responds substantively. Feinstein, otoh, made herself into an absolute rubber-stamping clown a long time ago...there is no defense for her.

We have to remain vigilant.


Yes, absolutely.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
22. Whereas I do not blame Obama at all, at all, at all.
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 04:02 PM
Jun 2013

There is nothing he can do that he has not already done. This cabal in the NSA and the CIA and in the rest of the snoopers and controllers was there long before he became president. He has reigned them in to the extent he can, but he can't do much.

That is a big difference between my view of this issue and the views of many other DUers. I think that Obama has done what he could do, although I wish he could and would do more. I don't doubt his wisdom at all.

Another difference between my view of this and those of others is that because of sheer accidental circumstances in my life, I happen to have traveled some in Eastern Europe and been able to speak with people, for example, from Poland, who lived through the repression there. For some years, I lived within driving distance of gun-towers, almost medieval fortifications, that dotted the borders between East and West. I travelled for reasons having nothing to do with politics across those borders.

So, I have experience with people who were frustrated and silenced by the surveillance of their governments, and I am very, very wary of it. It discourages discussion. It is incompatible with true freedom of speech and press and even religion. We cannot afford this massive collection of metadata.

That does not mean that the government should be prohibited from collecting the specific data on specific people who are believed to have or thought to have committed crimes if the data could be relevant to solving the crimes.

That is a totally different matter.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
26. Binney and other NSA whistleblowers were prosecuted. We aren't so free, are we?
Sat Jun 29, 2013, 07:07 PM
Jun 2013

The Obama Administration has prosecuted twice as many whistleblowers as the Bush regime and all previous Presidents.

The Jewel case against the telcos was dropped (thank you Sen. Obama for voting for that provision of the 2009 FISA Act), and with all due respect to the 9th Cir., the EFF case against the USG is very much a long, exhausting uphill slog that will likely lead to little if any changes in the way the government spies on and profiles all of us.

monmouth3

(3,871 posts)
2. His father is talking about when he returns to the US..
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 11:52 AM
Jun 2013


WASHINGTON, June 28 (Reuters) - The father of former U.S. spy agency contractor Edward Snowden said in an interview he is reasonably confident his son will return to the United States as long as certain conditions are met.

Those conditions could include not detaining Snowden before trial, NBC News said on Friday. The NBC report added that he plans to make that point in a letter to U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder to be sent through his lawyer later on Friday.

Snowden's father, in part of the NBC interview that aired on the "Today Show," also said he is concerned his son was being manipulated by others, including people from WikiLeaks.

Snowden fled the United States to Hong Kong in May, a few weeks before publication in the Guardian and the Washington Post of details he provided about secret U.S. government surveillance of Internet and phone traffic.

(Reporting by Susan Heavey; Editing by Vicki Allen)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/28/edward-snowden-father_n_3515434.html

My thoughts: I don't think Snowden thought this through. Having a place to go with the proper paper work should have been accomplished prior to his leaving..IMO


wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
4. You must be kidding.
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 12:11 PM
Jun 2013

He would have been picked up in a heartbeat, and "Ed Snowden" would mean nothing to you.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
8. How would he have applied for a visa to some country other than
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 12:29 PM
Jun 2013

Hong Kong? The contacts on the internet or phone or the means he tried to make them would have been picked up by our secret police and he would have been toast.

I don't think that people understand what this surveillance of metadata means. It is precisely the phone call or e-mail to some uncharacteristic place, the anomaly in an American's patterns that will be picked up.

If you haven't talked to people who have lived under repression and surveillance, you may have great difficulty thinking clearly about how it works.

Tarheel_Dem

(31,234 posts)
20. Oh sure, Comrade Eddie's not a flight risk. I'm sure any judge would grant him bail.
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 03:48 PM
Jun 2013
"Those conditions could include not detaining Snowden before trial".

EC

(12,287 posts)
5. I still think Breitbart and O'Keefe
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 12:11 PM
Jun 2013

someone talked him into this or manipulated him into this. His father is right to think his son is being used. As far as holding him, I don't know what to say. He HAS shown that he runs.

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
6. I think the social value to the situation is already pretty clear, just needs fine tuning.
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 12:21 PM
Jun 2013

I love that line, in order to give “a social value to the situation.”

Best line yet.

K&R

Igel

(35,304 posts)
16. "Assessment" would be better.
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 01:15 PM
Jun 2013

In the sense of assigning a social judgment or stating how important/valuable something is.

"Estimation" also works, but not as well.

"Societal" is probably better than "social," but trying to part "societal assessment" gets unwieldy. You have to find two less-obvious meanings in a novel phrase, and "societal" is rough in most cases because it's a group much smaller than 1% claiming to be the 99% doing the condemning of the 1%.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
15. Maybe, I'm inclined to doubt it.
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 01:15 PM
Jun 2013

There doesn't seem to be any hurry. Mr. Snowden seems to be happy as long as he has his computer. I think this is likely about how best to use the propaganda opportunity that the NSA/Booz-Allen has presented our "enemies" with, and only incidentally how to keep Mr. Snowden safe, that doesn't seem to be much of an issue at this point. He needs a transit visa to leave, but it seems clear the Russian will let him stay, he is very well skilled after all, and knowledgeable, so it could go either way.

I suppose just about everybody with the means is watching him when he goes online, if they can figure out which is him. But I expect he knows how to lie about it, that once being part of his job, and I doubt you can hack his machines either, he seems quite obsessive about security.

ancianita

(36,055 posts)
23. He probably is happy there, in Kaspersky land. There are those who might be holding him, as well,
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 05:45 PM
Jun 2013

until he's of no further use to them. I was just speculating about a safe way to Ecuador for him, probably with Russian jet escorts.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
24. Well, you have to understand, the Russians don't care, they think this is funny.
Sat Jun 29, 2013, 07:25 AM
Jun 2013

They are mocking us. "Shearing a pig".

Have you thought about the apparent fact that they are not very interested in Snowden's data? Them and the Chinese both? What does that tell you about what the NSA is doing? It tells you that it's not about the Russians, the NSA is watching us, and the Russians, having already done all that totalitarian shit, they know it's a lousy place to go, a loser, totalitarian states cannot compete; but they don't care, they will just watch.

ancianita

(36,055 posts)
25. It has occurred to me that they're as good at snooping as any nation, and that whatever
Sat Jun 29, 2013, 06:42 PM
Jun 2013

Snowden has that matters to us probably doesn't matter to them. Besides our deserving their mocking, it also occurs to me that they could be posturing and are interested in the thousands of other docs he claims to have elsewhere, if for no other reason than to check the accuracy of their own access and info priorities.

Major Hogwash

(17,656 posts)
14. " . . .with human rights activists in Russian headquarters of the Public Chamber of Russia, . . "
Fri Jun 28, 2013, 01:01 PM
Jun 2013
The oxymorons are coming!
The oxymorons are coming!


UTUSN

(70,691 posts)
27. This story is getting hilarious. Ecuadorean leakers to be prosecuted. Intermission: Ballerina.
Sat Jun 29, 2013, 07:11 PM
Jun 2013

Breakout session: "Dealing with 'Human Rights' Activists." Courtesy wifi, websites screened for convenience.

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