Updated 2X: Kerry: US Considering Repercussions For Russia's 'Incredible Act Of Aggression'

[DonViejo]

Last edited Sun Mar 2, 2014, 11:59 AM - Edit history (1)

Source: ASSOCIATED PRESS

CAITLIN MACNEAL – MARCH 2, 2014, 9:21 AM EST

WASHINGTON (AP) — Secretary of State John Kerry calls Russia's military incursion into Ukraine "an incredible act of aggression" and says President Vladimir Putin has made "a stunning, willful" choice to invade another country.

Kerry says Russia should respect the democratic process through which the Ukrainian people ousted their pro-Russian president and assembled a new government. Kerry is raising the possibility of boycotting the June meeting of the Group of Eight leading industrialized countries in Sochi, Russia.

He's also discussing visa bans, asset freezes, and trade and investment penalties. Kerry said he spoke with foreign ministers for G-8 and other nations on Saturday, and says everyone is prepared 'to go to the hilt" to isolate Russia.

Kerry was interviewed Sunday on CBS, ABC and NBC news shows.

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Read more: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/kerry-russia-ukraine-repercussions

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Kerry Blasts Russia's '19th Century Behavior' In Ukraine

Update 1:

CAITLIN MACNEAL – MARCH 2, 2014, 10:13 AM EST

Secretary of State John Kerry on Sunday sharply criticized Russian President Vladimir Putin for his decision to send troops into Crimea, a part of Ukraine strategically important to Russia.

“It’s really 19th century behavior in the twenty-first century," Kerry said on NBC's "Meet the Press." "You just don’t invade another country on phony pretexts in order to assert your interests." Kerry said that Putin is "possibly trying to annex Crimea," but that he will not succeed.

"He's going to lose on the international stage, Russia is going to lose, the Russian people are going to lose, and he's going to lose all of the glow that came out of the Olympics, his $60 billion extravaganza," Kerry said, adding that other world leaders are also determined to stop Putin form interfering in Ukraine.

"There’s a unified view by all of the foreign ministers I talked with yesterday – all of the G-8 and more -- that they’re simply going to isolate Russia; that they’re not going to engage with Russia in a normal business-as-usual manner…. The ruble is already going down and feeling the impact of this."

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http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/kerry-russia-ukraine-19th-century

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Update 2:

Kerry: 'This Is A Time For Diplomacy' But All Options On Table

CAITLIN MACNEAL – MARCH 2, 2014, 10:40 AM EST

Secretary of State John Kerry on Sunday said that for now, the United States will pursue diplomatic options first in order to convince Russia to pull back after it initiated military presence in Crimea, Ukraine.

"This is a time for diplomacy, and we will engage diplomatically as much as we can in order to steal this away from the increase in the tension of the level of the crisis. Nobody wants this to spiral into a bad or worse direction," Kerry said on ABC's "This Week." "It seems to me that if Russia were to step back and look at where its interests are, we ought to be able to work this out through the diplomatic process. If Russia chooses not to, there will be serious repercussions."

Kerry said the administration is prepared to ask Congress to prepare aide for Ukraine.

"We will call on Congress immediately to the degree that they are prepared to be helpful that they immediately lay down with us an economic package in order to assist Ukraine," he said. "We’re prepared to work very closely with Russia in order to address whatever legitimate concerns may exist. We believe there are many alternatives before you get to an invasion, and none of those have been tried at this point in time."

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http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/kerry-ukraine-diplomacy-first

[loudsue]

1. a stunning, willful" choice to invade another country." You mean, like Iraq?

Speaking for the war mongers, Kerry?

[andlor]

4. +1,000!!!

[lostincalifornia]

6. my exact thoughts, and why we have lost the moral authority

[truth2power]

7. Yes. Shut up, Kerry. You have no room to talk. eom

[aquart]

76. Kerry speaks for the Obama administration.

Try to keep that focus.

[truth2power]

81. Yes, I know. And?....

[jsr]

8. +1

[karynnj]

10. Yes like Iraq - where in January 2003, Kerry spoke out for "not rushing to war"

It may be hard for people who have their own view to see, but Kerry has been consistent in arguing for exhausting the diplomacy - which was NOT done - though Bush said in October 2002 that it would - before going to war. By March 2003, it was clear that Iraq had no WMD - but in October 2002, there had been no inspectors in since 1998. (This is not to defend Kerry's vote - it was premature to approve war with Bush deciding if the conditions were met. However, he said from the beginning it was to give Bush leverage to hopefully avoid war. He said repeatedly that the vote was wrong.)

The BG article linked here has some detailed quotes - I am linking to the DU thread I started because the articles that are public often a few days later are behind the paywall. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024580438

Note also that Syria - to some degree - shows this. Even as they prepared for a targeted strike to respond to use of chemical weapons, Kerry was still open to the very unlikely diplomatic response that would not just limit the use of CW, but would almost eliminate it. Note, that had Bush had the same goal - he could have called the unprecedented invasive inspections allowed by Iraq a victory and allowed the sanctions to end (as the rest of the world ended them) while continuing monitoring. Ironically, Bush would then have had the high ground in 2004 and could even have contrasted his actions favorably with Clinton allowing the devastating sanctions (with their collateral damage) to continue for his entire 8 years.

[loudsue]

14. Actually, that's true, karynnj. John Kerry has done a great deal at diplomacy since taking over

as Secy of State. The Iran thing, plus the fact that we didn't invade Syria. He really has taken the right side.

It was just too ironic to pass up that he chastised putin for doing exactly what we did.

[YvonneCa]

58. Kerry has been consisently pushing diplomacy over war...

...even in 2003. The policy of the Obama administration is NOT the same as in the Bush administration. I wish people would stop equating the two. Kerry's FP efforts are mostly the opposite of GWB policy. The US did wrong things under Bush. We did go into Iraq. But Obama/Kerry is not Bush. Obama/Kerry can ask 'What is just war?' Bush could not. Obama/Kerry can hold Putin accountable. Bush could not.

Maybe now we will actually debate what would be a just war?

[JDPriestly]

40. Thank you. Russia is wrong to use military force in that situation.

[Why Syzygy]

51. They have a treaty to allow access to their port.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/russia-to-abide-by/1014700.html

The Russian defence ministry on Wednesday said that it has to take "security measures" in Crimea, where Russia's Black Sea fleet has been based since tsarist times in the port city of Sevastopol.

On Thursday, the buildings housing Crimea's parliament and government were occupied by armed men of unknown affiliation who hoisted a Russian flag, and reported sightings of armed personnel carriers on the peninsula proliferated on social networks.

The foreign ministry statement said that "movements of armed vehicles of the Black Sea fleet were carried out in full compliance with the base agreements," without elaborating.

- AFP/fa

[JDPriestly]

59. In his speech yesterday, Obama acknowledged the right of the Russian government to its

Crimean facilities. There is no argument over Crimea. Russia would do well to resolve its problems with its Crimean facilities through diplomacy rather than with gunboats. What century is Russia living in?

[Why Syzygy]

70. Not sure how they can access their base by "diplomacy". Geography is involved.

"What is being billed as an “international crisis” in the west, with British and American political mouths now hyping-up Russia’s supposed “clear breach of international law”, few western mandarins and TV experts have bothered to mention (you can guess why) that the Russian Naval port located in Sevastopol, in the Crimea, Ukraine, is one of their largest naval military facilities established there, hosting Russia’s Black Sea Fleet since 1783.

To call Russian troop movements around the Crimea as an invasion is little more than western war-hyping writ large. Par for the course."

http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/03/03/head-of-ukraine-navy-defects-to-russia-as-chess-match-heats-up/

[sendero]

63. Kerry voted FOR..

.... the Iraq War Resolution, so I'm not remotely interested in his hollow words.

[aquart]

77. It was a trick vote designed to reel in clueless voters.

And look! It worked.

[sendero]

80. I agree...

... it was pandering to his 2004 aspirations, if he had run a decent campaign and won maybe I could look past it

[Excelsyor]

72. Fact-checkers have agreed that your excuse for Kerry's behavior is wrong

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/sep/13/john-kerry/secretary-state-john-kerry-says-senator-he-opposed/
http://www.factcheck.org/2013/09/kerry-spins-his-record-on-iraq/

[karynnj]

73. Politifact is rather biased with regards to Kerry

Note they would not even say that his comment that the ruble has fallen - when it HAS FALLEN is 100% true. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/mar/02/john-kerry/john-kerry-tells-cbs-viewers-russian-isolation-com/

My opinion is based on what he said in the months before the vote, when he voted and his comments between then and when the war started. The "fact checker" - had no more information than I did. Prosense and I posted posted why we we said what we did. Our reasons are based on what Kerry said and did in that interval.

[trusty elf]

11. Yes, thanks duh-bya for squandering whatever moral authority the US had.

[URL=http://imgur.com/bxkdM18][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[Le Taz Hot]

27. That was my first reaction.

[Bill76]

38. He should know.

Kerry is an expert war-monger himself.

[karynnj]

44. He has ALWAYS been for diplomacy to avoid war if at all possible

Obviously you know very little about who he is.

[ctsnowman]

55. Kerry on Iraq

[swilton]

61. Thank you!

NATO should have been abolished after the Berlin Wall came down, Germany was reunified, and the Warsaw Pact was dissolved.


http://www.veteransforpeace.org/pressroom/news/2012/05/10/veterans-for-peace-calls-for-an-end-to-nato

[7962]

2. Wow! Visa bans! Vlad is shaking in his boots

This is one area where Pres Obama has lost me. Thanks to GWB, we were viewed as wanting to go to war with everybody. Obama has gone way too far to try to repair that image. Now no one fears any action from us, and our allies wonder how much help we would be to them should they need it. We need to understand that a lot of the world only respects power and views anything else as weakness. And Putin is one of them. He as no fear that the US will do anything of substance to stop him. And the EU wouldnt whether it was 2014 or 2004. "Peace in our time" didnt work in '38 and it wont work today.
I could be wrong and I hope I am. Otherwise, the other former Soviet countries will be taken over one by one. And China will speed up its expansion as well.

[Bill76]

3. Apparently, visa bans are an example of "going to the hilt"

Twenty lashes with a wet noodle might also be in order.

[karynnj]

12. Would you prefer drones, air attacks, boots on the ground?

The list that Kerry gave is a list of NON MILITARY actions that can be done unilaterally as a deterrent or punishment. Obviously, the Russian can retaliate by doing the same to us -- but the US is the stronger economy. Not to mention, many of the European countries Kerry is speaking to will be willing to join us.

Many accounts suggest that the rubble is not all that healthy. If accurate, these things do just what Obama called for -- show Russia there are costs. The question will be if the probable costs are greater than the gain Russia sees in invading Ukraine. (Note the US did almost nothing when there was the same issue over Georgia. I wonder if there will be some back channel agreement - like Russia gets Crimea and its warm water port.) A side effect of that, would be that the remaining Ukraine is then not 50/50 west vs east, but tilted to the west.

[Bill76]

24. Stop jumping to conclusions.

Your question is tendentious and insulting. Also fallacious. From my comment that Kerry's reaction is mild, it does not logically follow that I support stronger action. In fact, I don't. I think Ukraine should give Crimea back to Russia, and there should be no penalty against Russia whatsoever for taking over the place, not even visa restrictions.

For you, I recommend a course in reasoning or critical thinking. I believe you would benefit from appropriate instruction.

[DonViejo]

26. What is your solution or idea of an effective response then? eom

[Bill76]

28. No response whatsoever.

The US should just stay out of it. Every time we get involved in the affairs of other nations, we make things worse.

Crimea was a part of Russia until 1954 when Kruschev gave Crimea to Ukraine in some kind of gesture of apology for Stalin's depredations there.

I think this was a mistake, because of the millions of ethnic Russians who were forced to be a despised minority in Ukraine. So let Putin correct the mistake and take back Crimea. This is no business of the US.

[karynnj]

36. My excellent reasoning and critical thinking skills were greatly

rewarded by excellent grades in college and graduate school and in several decades of work at the top research company of the time.

If that was your position, then you should have stated it as you did here - clearly. As it was, all that could be seen was that you thought Kerry's position inadequate.

[okaawhatever]

45. Absolutely. +10,000 nt

[Demit]

49. For you, I recommend making comments with more substance then.

A reader most certainly could infer from your wet noodle post that you would support stronger action. What's with the aggressive manner, anyway?

[DeSwiss]

83. We only do that to people who can't shoot back. :-| n/t

[cosmicone]

18. Stop invading or no Netflix for you!! n/t

[amandabeech]

52. A complete visa band for those who want to live in their

Manhattan or apartments and spend all the money they looted and placed in western banks.

Find some reason to freeze their bank accounts wherever possible.

Putin himself may not wish to travel, but a bunch of his rich buddies (and their wives and mistresses) might not like it so much.

[7962]

64. Thats a good point, considering the explosion of Russian millionaires & billionaires.

Although Vlad is also one of them even though he wont admit it.

[amandabeech]

65. Of course the Russian oligarchs could just turn Socchi

into a combination of LA and Miami! Not.

Reports are that 'ole Vlad is worth about $30 billion. Of course, he worked very, very hard and invested very well. It's hard work riding a pony without a shirt! I shouldn't laugh. The Russians probably laugh at our President in his golf attire at about the same decibel level.

[Arkana]

75. So what would you prefer? That we invade? Smash Moscow to rubble

and "nation-build" Russia into yet another failed "democracy"?

Diplomacy works. I'm sorry we're not enough of a warmonger for you.

[RKP5637]

5. To me, this is the first of plays in an agenda. Much as with LGBT to demonstrate power and

control, this is one more step. ... not saying I know what to do, just that there is a pattern ... IMO. As some have said, Putin is a thug (and a bully). Frankly, I don't think he gives a F what others do/say, he is testing the waters.

[Bill76]

25. I'm sorry, I don't understand the connection with LGBT issues.

Would you please explain?

[RKP5637]

33. Yes, there is absolutely no direct connection. It is about power and control. n/t

[lostincalifornia]

9. ah, we invaded Iraq, but when Russia went into Georgia, the fear of what we did in Iraq didn't stop

them. Not sure where you are coming from.

So you are still living in the age where you believe in the domino theory

I guess you were for our involvement in Viet Nam also

No thank you, we have screwed up enough countries with our arrogance, and not only hurt and killed a lot of innocents, but also our people

[karynnj]

16. The question is whether economic pressure from the uS and Europe

has any impact. If the ruble is weak and they need the international resources the west can control, that could make them back off.

Are you arguing for the McCain/Romney policy? The US and Russia avoided a direct war for the entire cold war. Do you really think that is a good idea now? (Note how difficult both Iraq and Afghanistan were and how NOTHING has been "won". Consider how much BIGGER directly attacking Russia would be. Ukraine is too close to Russia for this to be a proxy war - especially with the Russian Navy already based in Crimea.)

[cosmicone]

19. Kerry is a hypocrite

Russia has not invaded -- Russia was invited in by the governor of autonomous Crimea.

Secondly, it is the protesters (neonazis and fascists allied with the CIA) that overthrew a democratically elected government of Yanukovytch. Russia would be absolutely justified in restoring Yanukovytch and killing the CIA boy Yatsenyk if he doesn't flee to Washington first.

It is sick to see the US taking the side of neonazis and fascists. Kerry remains a hypocrite.

[Splinter Cell]

32. That's pretty rich...

I find it funny that people on here are crapping on Kerry over Iraq, while being fans of Hillary....

[amandabeech]

53. Ironic, isn't it. n/t

[TwilightGardener]

22. Actually, smaller things, if combined, can put a squeeze on Russia--

there are ways to undercut Russia economically that might cause them to decide to stop where they're at in Crimea, at the least. Military response from other countries would be very dangerous at this point. Diplomatic and economic measures are the best way for now.

[paleotn]

29. Perfect solution.....

Lets nuke the bastards now while they don't expect it! Solves everything, doesn't it?

Geez, dude, are you channeling some long dead, John Birch Society, Cold War ultra hawk or what? Otherwise, to be painfully honest, you're out of your F'n mind!

[zeemike]

37. Or channeling General Buck Turdges...

[paleotn]

56. Ha!....

...Exactly! One of my all time favorite movies.

[JDPriestly]

41. What alternative is there? Do you think the US could invade Russia and come out in one piece?

Because we couldn't.

Same for China.

We might be able to take out their internet for a few hours, or maybe do the same to some infrastructure.

Do you realize how huge Russia and China are? What their populations are?

The Iraqis are still fighting amongst themselves. Over 700 killed in the most previous month.

War is not an answer to anything.

We have to do everything we can to get a peaceful settlement in the Ukraine before we respond to any invasion by Russia.

Americans have no idea how war destroys not just a country but the children, families, everyone in the country.

We should try to avoid war at all costs, and when we fight wars we should put everything we have and are into them. Raise taxes to pay for it. If we want to win a war we will have to sacrifice a great deal, each of us. Most of the warmongers are not willing to pay taxes to keep our government going, much less pay them to keep a huge war going.

If you don't like high gas prices, you sure won't like a war in the Ukraine.

[Sunlei]

47. We could 'help' breadbasket Ukraine do the trades with the EU they want (Russia doesn't want)

[JDPriestly]

60. We probably will.

[Sunlei]

62. I think we will too, along with all the EU members who are also Ukraines closest neighbor countries.

[malthaussen]

13. Ever notice how often people use "incredible" when they mean "amazing?"

Russia's imperialist ambitions are perfectly credible. In fact, one might even call them "predictable."

-- Mal

[PaulRevere08]

17. Exactly! Russia has always been an imperialist entity.

They have always needed/wanted a warm water port an this is an excuse to take back Crimea and Sevastopol.

[paleotn]

31. The Black Sea fleet is already based there....

....and no Ukranian government will change that relationship. Regardless, it's a warm water port in a pond, and the vaunted Black Sea fleet is a paper tiger simply due to geography. To be of any use against anyone other than maybe Bulgaria, it still must pass through the Dardanelles and the Bosphorus, both controlled by NATO.

[Bill76]

35. Just like the US.

And Russia has other ports on the Black Sea. In the south of Russia there are three ports, one of which is located on the Sea of Azov (Taganrog), and two on the Black Sea (Novorossiysk and Tuapse).

[amandabeech]

54. The Russians are supposedly building a big base at Novorossiysk

which is supposed to replace Sevastopol when the lease is up.

I'll be that the $$$$ that Putin spent on Sochi could have been used productively to speed up construction at Novo.

The Black Sea Fleet isn't what it used to be, so unless Putin is planning on a major rebuilding plan, the installation at Novo may not have to be as big initially as the one at Sevas.

[Bill76]

34. Yes, "incredible" is overworked.

"Incredible" means "unbelieveable." Now when I hear someone say, "He has incredible talent" or "We did an incredible amount of work" I think, if it's so "incredible," maybe I shouldn't believe it.

[another_liberal]

15. Democratic process?

The democratic process now includes fire bombs, lead pipes used as clubs and burning buildings? That will certainly liven up the primaries this year!

[cosmicone]

20. +1000000 n/t

[jsr]

21. Good point there

[DallasNE]

23. We Need To Pick Our Friends Carefully

My reading of what happened in Ukraine started out as a democratic process then when there was a government crackdown a faction of hard right extremists took over, throwing fire bombs and the like. Parliament then stepped in to name a new leader and restore the democratic process. Yes, it was more like mob rule for a couple of weeks but lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Now I don't pretend to know the answers but I would move very cautiously and deliberately here. And pick our friends very carefully.

[another_liberal]

30. Very good advice, Dallas, we should pick carefully indeed.

One should also realize that among the first actions the so-called "Interim Government" in Kiev carried out when it took power about a week ago were to outlaw the opposition political parties, which were a democratically elected majority in the Rada Parliament, censor opposition news services and appoint openly fascistic politicians to positions of power, some of them with control over parts of the Ukrainian military.

What "baby" are we trying to avoid "throwing out?"

[SolutionisSolidarity]

39. Good luck getting a response.

Ukraine put Svoboda in charge of the military and police, when a few weeks back the same posters were claiming that the far right were marginal groups of no real importance. It's quite clear that having fascists marching up and down the public square is entirely consistent with the neo-liberal definition of democracy.

[another_liberal]

42. As long as the mega-bankers and money fund managers . . .

As long as the mega-bankers and money fund managers still get their chance to loot Ukraine of anything worth anything, most in the West would support committed cannibals as the leadership there, at least in my opinion they would.

[DallasNE]

43. I Was Thinking More About Our History Of Backing Despots

When they were anti-Communist. Many of the pro-European Union leaders in Ukraine are also Nazi leaning so we need to show a great deal of caution with who we cozy up to. This could well be a lose-lose situation. But when a nation with nuclear weapons is involved we have a national interest in the outcome. Now the interim government has asked for international monitors and May elections so there are also moderates in the government and I had that in mind as the "baby" to avoid throwing out. I'm still in the process of sorting out who the good guys and bad guys are. Indeed, some of those that sound like good guys today may only be saying some short term things to get them over the hump and consolidate power, turning into bad guys at the end of the day.

[another_liberal]

48. I see your point, we do have to be pragmatic . . .

This is serious business, and no doubt about it.

What really bothers me most about our support and manipulation of the events in Ukraine is how easily we abandoned a democratically elected government. When the chance to elevate our Harvard educated "technocrat" to the Presidency presented itself, the principle of support for democracy went down the drain.

It all just helps to prove true what a Latin American leader recently said about us:

The only country in the World which doesn't have to fear a coup is the United States, because there is no American embassy to organize the take over.

[ctsnowman]

57. lol Love it.

[Sunlei]

46. “It’s really 19th century behavior in the twenty-first century,"said Kerry. He's right.

[daleo]

66. The Iraq invasion was in 2003

So there is a 21st century precedent.

[durablend]

50. Makes PERFECT sense actually

BOMB the SH*T out of them, distract the sheeple HERE so TPTB can plunder whatever (little) wealth is left while the American people watch all the pretty explosions on teevee.

No wonder the 1%ers are pushing for this!

[LisaL]

67. Considering Russia got nukes, the explosion American people might get to watch won't just be on

TV.

[Aerows]

69. North America and Europe would be obliterated

Practically the entire Northern Hemisphere would be decimated.

Edit: Hell, I wonder if I shouldn't be making arrangements to live in Australia.

[Aerows]

68. I don't agree with getting involved

But if I was Turkey? I'd be very concerned about Crimea being annexed and nuclear armed again under Soviet control. There is a lot of bad blood in that region since the days of the Ottoman Empire.

[BlueInPhilly]

71. And just how many bases in foreign lands does the US have?

Same difference. When will someone accuse the US of "invading" Turkey, S. Korea, Japan, Italy, Iraq, Germany, UK, etc?

[Arkana]

74. As long as we're not talking about war.

[morningfog]

78. I don't like his last threat.

"...we ought to be able to work this out through the diplomatic process. If Russia chooses not to, there will be serious repercussions."

He is giving two alternatives: Russia can choose to work this out through diplomatic processes or there will be serious repercussions. This represents repercussions outside the diplomatic pressures/punishments. I read that as a threat of military force.

[mike_c]

79. listening to Kerry bleat about invading other countries after his support for invading Iraq...

...is pretty damned disgusting.

[Arkana]

82. Rhetoric aside, I'm sure the irony of his statements is not lost on Kerry.

He's not an idiot, and he has to know that we've heard these arguments before.

[Nihil]

85. You think he cares?

He's not an idiot: he knows who butters his bread for him and he only cares
about *those* opinions, not the general public's (and certainly not the rest
of the non-American world). He postures if he's told to posture, bluffs if he's
told to bluff and spouts hypocritical bullshit if he's told to spout hypocritical
bullshit.

It's a great life for the 0.01%.

[DeSwiss]

84. STFU! n/t

[arikara]

86. Why is the US and EU sticking up for what is in actual fact a coup?

Kerry says Russia should respect the democratic process through which the Ukrainian people ousted their pro-Russian president and assembled a new government.

Like it or not, that president was elected. I'm missing something here, or since when is a coup considered democratic process? Seriously, the US could have gotten rid of Bush, Canada could get rid of Harper by taking to the streets instead of bothering with crooked elections.