Ukraine PM appeals for unity after Odessa tragedy

[Omaha Steve]

Source: AP-EXCITE

ODESSA, Ukraine (AP) — Ukraine's prime minister on Sunday visited the city where a horrific blaze killed dozens of pro-Russian demonstrators during political riots — seeking to defuse mounting tensions by calling the deaths a "tragedy for all Ukraine."

Arseniy Yatsenyuk said police were being investigated for their failure to maintain order in Friday's violence, while hinting strongly that he sees Moscow's hand in the events.

"This is not a tragedy only for Odessa," Yatsenyuk said. "This is a tragedy for all Ukraine."

The prime minister said he has charged prosecutors with "finding all instigators, all organizers and all those that under Russian leadership began a deadly attack on Ukraine and Odessa."

FULL story at link.


Read more: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20140504/eu-ukraine-723f814a62.html

---

Pro-Russian protesters break up the words "Ukrainian the Security Service" next to the Ukrainian regional office of the Security Service in Donetsk, eastern Ukraine, Saturday, May 3, 2014, which has been captured to honor the memory of fallen comrades during fighting with pro-Ukrainian activists in Odessa on Friday. In Donetsk, the largest city in the insurgent east, demonstrators who stormed the local office of the Ukrainian Security Service on Saturday evening shouted "We will not forgive Odessa." No police were deployed to block the building takeover. (AP Photo/Alexander Zemlianichenko)

[bemildred]

1. Odessa police free pro-Russian activists held after fighting: witness

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/nationworld/sns-rt-us-ukraine-crisis-odessa-release-20140504,0,376962.story

[bemildred]

2. Freed OSCE observers tell of ordeal during capture in Ukraine

---

"The proverbial fire of handguns and artillery came closer and closer," said Colonel Axel Schneider at a press conference in Berlin on Saturday night. "But we were condemned to inaction. Anyone who hasn't gone through something like this can't imagine what it was like."

Schneider said his team had been allowed constant contact with the OSCE and their families throughout their capture.

---

The OSCE mission has faced criticism from within Germany. In an interview with Der Spiegel magazine, the deputy leader of the Bavarian CSU, a sister party to Angela Merkel's CDU, criticised the government for allowing itself to be drawn into the conflict in the Ukraine.

"I can see that it is in the interest of the revolutionary government in Kiev, whose legitimacy one has reasons to doubt, to 'invite' soldiers of the German army into the conflict zone," said Peter Gauweiler. "But I don't understand how it can be in our interest to allow ourselves to be dragged further into the conflict in such a clumsy manner."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/04/freed-osce-observers-ordeal-capture-ukraine

[bemildred]

3. Ukrainian PM blames security forces for Odessa deaths as Kiev's troops surround Slovyansk

Ukraine’s interim Prime Minister has said the country’s security forces are to blame for the deaths of over 40 people in Odessa - the vast majority pro-Russian protesters - as they failed to maintain order in the southern city.

Violent clashes in the city culminated in a building which pro-Russian protesters had barricaded themselves into following running battles with pro-Kiev demonstrators, being set alight, killing dozens trapped inside.

Arseniy Yatsenyuk told the BBC there will be "a full comprehensive and independent investigation” that will “investigate everyone - starting with the chief of police, his deputies and every single police officer."

"We do understand that the security forces are inefficient and violated the law," he said. "I personally blame the security service and law enforcement office for doing nothing to stop this crackdown."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukrainian-pm-blames-security-forces-for-odessa-deaths-as-kievs-troops-surround-slovyansk-9321796.html

[bemildred]

4. Pro-Russian mob seizes building in Ukraine’s Donetsk

Kiev: A crowd of some 300 pro-Russian militants hurling rocks and Molotov cocktails seized control of the prosecutor's office in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk on Thursday.

Several of the 100 police officers guarding the building were injured and in some cases severely beaten as the mob stripped them of their weapons and shields, AFP reporters on the scene said.

Rebels quickly took control of the building after mounting a second assault from the back, hoisting the Russian flag, barricading the front door and burning Ukrainian symbols in the street.

The outnumbered police injured some rebels as they responded with stun grenades, tear gas and rubber bullets, but were quickly overpowered.

http://www.timesofoman.com/News/33237/Article-Pro-Russian-mob-seizes-building-in-Ukraine%E2%80%99s-Donetsk

[The Magistrate]

8. Interesting Accounts, Sir

One of the chief features of the situation is the willingness of police to allow themselves to be beaten; one might almost suspect a Gandhian spirit among them....

[newthinking]

21. The AG and head of State security are Svoboda - For clarification of why this particular building

This seems to confirm that the east feels the problems are coming from the Neo-Nazi leaders in the executive positions in Kiev.

From my own research this appears to be correct. Despite the claims to the contrary, it seems that because some high power there are sympathetic toward these groups (or members) they are allowing significant groups to terrorize the country.

Here is something I found today. Euromaidan PR - This indicates that Right Sector is (now, if not always) in a place of power in the EuroMaidan.
I wonder if it will get removed when someone points out that it was not good "PR" to disclose this?

[Duckhunter935]

27. all 6 of them

[newthinking]

41. There are some 150 members of Right sector in the administration in Kiev, likely more from Svoboda

It is not an imagined problem.

And administration does not put people in such high places unless there is some sympathy and tolerance for what they stand for. You won't here this in the media, but as this collapses it be as much to do with the instable cooalation that, if the pres and PM are not that far right themselves they tried to control, without success.
In the most innocent version of events they played with fire (Neo-Nazi's) and got burnt, if they are that innocent and not actually in some alignment in belief systems. The are all far rightists in even the "fatherland" party. It is amazing people on a democratic site don't get that.

[Jesus Malverde]

67. Look just like american bundy supporters...

A bunch of losers, who cannot make it in the mainstream. Likely couldn't even complete army service nor gainful employment.

In some senses I feel sorry for them.

An anti-social milieu as it were.

[Bosonic]

5. pro Ukraine activists gathering in Odessa to respond to separatists

Just reading that pro Ukraine activists gathering in Odessa to respond to separatists. Dangerous

https://twitter.com/BSpringnote/status/462961623024803840

Re:

Ukraine crisis: Odessa detainees freed as police HQ attacked

Pro-Russian activists have attacked the police headquarters in Ukraine's southern city of Odessa, forcing the release of several people held over deadly violence on Friday.

The clashes led to more than 40 deaths. Most of the victims were pro-Russian separatists killed when the building they were barricaded in caught fire.

Ukraine's interim PM has accused police of failing to prevent the violence.

Hundreds of pro-Russian activists descended on the police HQ on Sunday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27276120

[The Magistrate]

6. The BBC Account Is Very Interesting, Sir

"Fire broke out on the third floor, leaving people trapped in the building."

If this is true, it strongly suggests mis-handling of incendiary devices by occupants of the building played a significant role in the blaze.

[nyabingi]

9. There are videos of neo-Nazis and pro-Kiev radicals

tossing Molotovs into the windows of the building from the ground below, as well as one wrapped in the blue and yellow Ukrainian flag firing his pistol up at the building while all of this was going (whom he was shooting at could not be seen).

You might not, however, give any credence to these videos because they didn't come from NBC or CBS...

[tabasco]

10. Links please.

Thanks.

[nyabingi]

13. Here is a link to the video I saw

http://rt.com/news/156664-odessa-fire-radicals-shoot/

However, since it is from RT, it is probable it was all staged to further Putinist propaganda...

[ballyhoo]

17. Were you serious or are you being

sarcastic? I don't really care for RT much, but I don't think they would stage a conflagration report where people were burned to death.

[nyabingi]

18. I was being sarcastic of course

because some people will automatically dismiss anything from RT as propaganda.

[ballyhoo]

20. I know. I have a tendancy

to dismiss everything I get from the media as propaganda anymore. But not this. This is an unusual time for me. It is the first time I am believing Russia and Putin over America and its leaders. No offense intended, nyabingi.

[tabasco]

73. Watched the videos

Didn't see anybody throwing Molotov cocktails in windows.

[nyabingi]

75. There were other videos showing that

in addition to a man being beaten to death after falling from the building.

There are more videos showing what happened available now and all of them are disturbing and hard to watch.

[The Magistrate]

16. Trying To Loft A Molotov To A Third Storey Window, Sir, Is An Excellent Way to Set Yourself On Fire

If fire commenced that high in the building, it is unlikely the source was outside. I am well aware the things were going in both directions, and make no categorical statement regarding how the fire took hold; there is not yet enough information available to do so.

[nyabingi]

19. Check out some of the video

from the scene.

http://rt.com/news/156664-odessa-fire-radicals-shoot/

[newthinking]

22. Plenty of video's around. You should watch them before you make incorrect statements

Especially when the incineration of 30 ppl is involved.

By the way, the people in the building were not connected with the clashes in the center. Those people were arrested. The gunman on the roof in the center clash was given over to Right Sector where they proceeded to kill him through torture (starting with cutting his leg off).

This is serious stuff. At this point there will be bad actors on all sides. But it should be reported on with respect for the truth and those who will have been innocents and caught in the crossfire.

I would feel a little sheepish to present information about a massacre without doing a fair amount of research. Especially when some of it is so available.

[Duckhunter935]

28. where did you get this?

By the way, the people in the building were not connected with the clashes in the center. Those people were arrested. The gunman on the roof in the center clash was given over to Right Sector where they proceeded to kill him through torture (starting with cutting his leg off).

Can you give us the source,or did you make it up?

[newthinking]

29. I will look for it.

I have been doing most of my research for myself and I am lousy about staying organized.

[Duckhunter935]

31. Understand but when you

state as fact such a charge you really should have a reliable source linked to corroborate it. For all I know you heard it on twitter from a kid in a basement.

If that is true that is very big news and even RT has not picked up on it and I would think they would be wall to wall with it.

[newthinking]

35. Ukraine news is not well organized, then add to it all the misdirection and interests

Large news sites like in Kyiv and in our media (and RT) mostly seem to print what is of interest to them and then they don't seem to put much effort into learning more once the first story is passed (that is if they even want to know more)

[Duckhunter935]

33. OK saw a video of it

His leg was not cut off. He was beaten, his foot badly injured and police protecting him and applying first aid. He was very much alive with a dozen police protecting him and the protesters leaving. One of the protesters is yelling for the to stop and not kill him while another did.

View at your own discretion, quite graphic.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4a9_1399121015&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[newthinking]

42. Mob justice is spreading like wildfire. Imagine if that was actually not the man whom was firing

It likely is, but still, with mob justice innocent people do often die. And they will on *both* sides of a civil war.

[Duckhunter935]

48. so you were wrong

[newthinking]

51. Just to be clear - They were stopped before they could complete it. They were slowly stripping the

skin from his bones. So yes, he was not killed after all.

Not sure how that changes how nasty mob justice is. I am for judge and jury personally.

[newthinking]

34. Here is a link and some translation

It is not easy to put it all together because most of the press reports are incorrect, incomplete, or just out and out lies

I have done a lot of research (too much, robbing myself of sleep) to try and get at what happened. I have been in Odessa and this is quite emotional for me.

It is not just this account, but the videos and many other sources that make me believe much of this account is accurate. The reports of having arrested anti-maidan who are reported to be from Transneistra (That is in many places in the Ukrainian media but not documented with photos etc, so I would still place this as not fully verified). But it is coming from "pro-ukraine" sites so there is no reason to suspect it is Russian propaganda or some such.

3. Пишут, что возвели баррикады. Вранье. Посмотрите на фотографии, им 1-3 часа. После того, как одесситы само организовались, они загнали титушек в торговый центр Афина. Все шло а расправе с ними внутри. Но полиция закрыла вход и выход (думаю, тем самым спасла провокаторов . Позже туда приехал спецназ, вошел в здание, скрутил провокаторов и загрузил в автозак. Сейчас никаких баррикад в городе нет.

http://www.snob.ru/profile/28387/blog/75756

Roughly translated:

Paragraph 3 of his description:
"The writing about the barracades was a lie. Look at the pictures. They are from 1-3:00 PM. After (the clash earlier). After the Odessites (Pro-Ukraine and football players etc) organized a large group, they (the provokers) drove to Titusheck building in the center. (after they went in) The police blocked the entrances (therefore saving the lives of the insitgators from the group. Later commandos came and entered the building and overcame the "provocateurs" and took them away. Now there are no barricades.

Paragraph 4:
Apparently it was the fate for the Union House to burn. For after the Odessites (Pro-Ukraine, football players, etc) repulsed the attack they went on the offensive. Burning all the tents on Kulikovo field, beat the inhabitants (alas, there these were few and were since-rally for federalization and they are local (My note: He was with the Pro-Ukrainians and did not know at this point there were many other local "pro-federalization people that had fled to the building). The Union building is now on fire

Paragraph 5.
Horrible! Again there are victims. They say 3-6 Euromaidan dead (My comment - I believe it ended up 3 dead pro, 2 dead anti) in the lead up to the fire. And as a result of the fire 30 more on the other side (anti-maidan, pro-federalization). It's awful. Odessa, a peaceful town. After the first part the events were a fight of anti-Putin.


I have to run for a bit and am stopping here. You can use google translate for the rest. This version seems to correspond with other information in various odessa sources.

[The Magistrate]

47. You, Sir, Exemplify The 'Unreliable Narrator' Problem

It can be charming, even instructive, when encountered in acknowledged works of fiction, but in someone trying to comment on events, and making a claim to be presenting facts, it is contemptible.

[newthinking]

52. Well, when it is so obvious and easy to find and I have already linked to it multiple times...

It does not seem like you really want your opinion changed by these facts or surely you would have already done so. There is really no reason to get them again.

You know where they are. Spend some energy instead of just throwing insults please.

[The Magistrate]

56. Your Account Of What Footage Contains And Signifies, Sir, Is Not Reliable

A common problem, when one is engaged in ideologically driven propagandizing.

[newthinking]

57. I have posted much information that can be checked

But I am not going to repost them for you. Where is all your research? Magistrate? Judges do research and consider all sides of the story before making judgements.. at least good ones do.

Do you feel you are earning the name you chose? Why not present your evidence then, instead of insisting my conclusions are patently wrong even though you have no done so?

[The Magistrate]

59. And The Visuals, Sir, Seldom Jibe With Your Descriptions And Assigned Meanings

The written accounts you present are invariably boiler-plate.

[Duckhunter935]

62. He has already been caught

in one outright lie. He posted in several places statements as fact and video proves him wrong. He finally did acknowledge it when called on it in post but still keeps putting out the same lie without correction in others.

Blinded to the facts that do not fit his narrative. There are no clean hands on both sides in the sad situation.

[Adrahil]

23. There are also video of Pro-Russian forces shooting into the crowd from the rooftop.

But I notice you won't mention those.

[Duckhunter935]

30. of course not

[newthinking]

36. Actually I did mention it. With a pistol on the 5th floor.

Everything is fucked up. People carry weapons now on both sides. But there were shots fired at people trying to exit windows from the fire. I don't think it would be unusual for someone to start firing from the roof in such a situation. There were women burned alive in that building.

Here is the account I placed in another thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014795749#post25

Here are the events as I have researched (nothing from RT, it is not necessary to even quote them with this story, it is everywhere on the net if you can translate Ukrainian or Russian:

There were two locations involved: A clash in the center of the city and the Union building/Tent City there

*Clash *appears* to have possibly been started by a group that was inside of the antimaidan side when a fight with chains and bats started.
*That escelated into a firefight as both sides are now bringing guns along with them "in case".
*The initial provocateurs (they appear possibly to be so) are rumored to have been from Transneistra (Ukraine or the country we don't know)
*They were arrested. But since that they have disappeared and not much else is being mentioned about them in Ukrainian press.
*The gunman on the roof (in the center) was taken down by police (probably in fear) and given over to maidan where they proceeded to torture him to death, first by cutting off his leg (I am not sure what else as I have not wanted to open the video of it)
*Several people were killed on both sides
*Afterwards, right sector members joined in with the people in the clash and a larger group was formed. They headed to the "tent city" of the anti-maidan.
*The tent city "occupiers" (men and women) many of which were not at the clash (which was mostly men, who would have guessed), fled on seeing the mob to the Union building. There are conflicting stories about the "barracades", but there we others in the building including children at that point. It appears no children died fortunately. But I cannot confirm that
*It was likely the Right Sector members of maidan that set the building on fire. And they did do so, there are videos of pretty much the who thing with lots of petrol bombs being thrown (some yes, even at the third floor, but fire travels anyway).
*Some infiltrated the building and started a fight inside, which slowed movement out of the immediate area of the initial fire.
*The likely reason so many were killed is they continued to throw gas (Petrol bombs) throughout, even after the fire was raging
*There were gunman firing at people trying to leave through windows. Yes there were! And some people trying to leave were beaten.
*They were yelling death threats further making those inside afraid to come out.
*Yes, it does appear that on one side of the building some other maidan were trying to help some flee.
I have yet to find any video where you can see a petrol bomb being thrown from the roof, though I would not be surprised if it did not happen, but clearly it was the petrol bombs from outside that started and fanned the fire (it is a puzzle as to why the press reports otherwise, likely because they run with stories with incorrect information.
*It does appear that at some point some shots were fired from the roof (five stories up). It was a pistol, and I have yet to confirm any deaths by gunfire in the maidan that were there.
*The people who made it to the roof (I believe) were eventually rescued. But they were not able to get them out until well after dark due to the threats to their lives.. Right Sector remained outside the building until well after dark (there is a video showing them singing songs and yelling "molodetz" (Perfect!) as the police take out the burned bodies.

So far there are reports of arrests. But given that the official government line is that the fire was started by "accident" it is doubtful that the people who did it will end up in jail (besides, little has changed and money can still get you out of jail there)

This was all sourced from videos and Ukrainian sources. Most from Odessa news sites. Twitter is very helpful as a lot of sleuthing happens there. Nothing from RT.

[nyabingi]

72. That may well be the case...

...but I haven't seen or heard of any such incidents from the pro-western or pro-Russian media. I did see people who jumped from the burning building being brutally beaten (well there's some alliteration for ya!) on the ground by Right Sector members.

It completely befuddles me why so many American liberals are going out of their way to defend neo-Nazi thugs and their violence...

[RedFury]

53. You are truly a sleuth as well as a ...

...magistrate.

Or else how do you conclude that the fire wasn't started buy a hurled Molotov cocktail from the throng outside? Who, BTW, are shown in many videos doing just so.

Are you truly suggesting a young man with a fairly good arm can't thow a bottle three floors up? Because in my younger days that would hardly be a feat -- albeit I used any number of non-explosive devices many likely weighting quite a bit more.

[The Magistrate]

58. The Problem With Lofting A Molotov That High, Sir

Is not dipping the liquid in the bottle to or below the level of the flaming wick. That is something the thrower will wish devoutly to avoid. Pick up a bottle yourself and give it a dry-run; you will find it very difficult to get any sort of a wrist-snap into the throw without tipping the bottle dangerously, or moving in a way which will slosh liquid against the wick end, and the snap of the wrist provides most of the power and distance in a toss. The things are fiendishly dangerous to handle.

There is footage showing interior fire on upper floors, and showing burning bottles being thrown down. This is sufficient grounds for suspicions fire broke out higher in the building owing to mishandling of incendiary devices.

There is certainly a large fire on the ground floor at the entrance by the end of the thing. This is certainly consonant with incendiary devices thrown from a crowd in front of the building.

[Igel]

7. Even though social media sites predominately say "stay home."

Then again, vKontakte has supposedly published photos, names, addresses, workplaces/places of study, friends/family of some of the marchers in the "Ukrainian unity" march and at the anti-Maidan site.

Along with pictures of burned bodies. Calling for revenge.


Tough call. Do you cede the public space to one side, so that those on the fence go with the stronger, soon-to-be victor while those who would oppose them realize that you're weak and won't help; or do you stand up to them?


That's sort of the problem from 5/2. As in ... was it Kharkiv a couple of weeks ago? ... soccer fans have merged support for a club with Ukrainian politics. Instead of having fans from clubs fight over soccer, fighting over soccer is a proxy for pro/anti-unity and pro/anti-unity becomes a fight over soccer.

Turns out that the busloads of soccer thugs that were marching were armed because of social media sites that said some local Odessa "fans" were going to attack them, and the soccer thugs with the marchers were monitoring, via texting and social sites, the progress of the anti-marchers/anti-maidan folk on a parallel street.

[newthinking]

25. Some of those profiles are also being removed (step by step account in this post)

Last edited Sun May 4, 2014, 05:28 PM - Edit history (1)

Such as the profile of the organizer of the event, which was up yesterday but is gone now.

The press really needs to step away from shallow "reporting", which is what is driving all the tensions sky high. It does not help that the divisions have weakened the police and turned them either afraid or political in their application of justice.

I am afraid that it seems like things are so messed up that it may not be tameable.

Here are the events as I have researched (nothing from RT, it is not necessary to even quote them with this story, it is everywhere on the net if you can translate Ukrainian or Russian:

There were two locations involved: A clash in the center of the city and the Union building/Tent City there

*Clash *appears* to have possibly been started by a group that was inside of the antimaidan side when a fight with chains and bats started.
*That escelated into a firefight as both sides are now bringing guns along with them "in case".
*The initial provocateurs (they appear possibly to be so) are rumored to have been from Transneistra (Ukraine or the country we don't know)
*They were arrested. But since that they have disappeared and not much else is being mentioned about them in Ukrainian press.
*The gunman on the roof (in the center) was taken down by police (probably in fear) and given over to maidan where they proceeded to torture him to death, first by cutting off his leg (I am not sure what else as I have not wanted to open the video of it)
*Several people were killed on both sides
*Afterwards, right sector members joined in with the people in the clash and a larger group was formed. They headed to the "tent city" of the anti-maidan.
*The tent city "occupiers" (men and women) many of which were not at the clash (which was mostly men, who would have guessed), fled on seeing the mob to the Union building. There are conflicting stories about the "barracades", but there we others in the building including children at that point. It appears no children died fortunately. But I cannot confirm that
*It was likely the Right Sector members of maidan that set the building on fire. And they did do so, there are videos of pretty much the who thing with lots of petrol bombs being thrown (some yes, even at the third floor, but fire travels anyway).
*Some infiltrated the building and started a fight inside, which slowed movement out of the immediate area of the initial fire.
*The likely reason so many were killed is they continued to throw gas (Petrol bombs) throughout, even after the fire was raging
*There were gunman firing at people trying to leave through windows. Yes there were! And some people trying to leave were beaten.
*They were yelling death threats further making those inside afraid to come out.
*Yes, it does appear that on one side of the building some other maidan were trying to help some flee.
I have yet to find any video where you can see a petrol bomb being thrown from the roof, though I would not be surprised if it did not happen, but clearly it was the petrol bombs from outside that started and fanned the fire (it is a puzzle as to why the press reports otherwise, likely because they run with stories with incorrect information.
*It does appear that at some point some shots were fired from the roof (five stories up). It was a pistol, and I have yet to confirm any deaths by gunfire in the maidan that were there.
*The people who made it to the roof (I believe) were eventually rescued. But they were not able to get them out until well after dark due to the threats to their lives.. Right Sector remained outside the building until well after dark (there is a video showing them singing songs and yelling "molodetz" (Perfect!) as the police take out the burned bodies.

So far there are reports of arrests. But given that the official government line is that the fire was started by "accident" it is doubtful that the people who did it will end up in jail (besides, little has changed and money can still get you out of jail there)

This was all sourced from videos and Ukrainian sources. Most from Odessa news sites. Twitter is very helpful as a lot of sleuthing happens there. Nothing from RT.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

26. There's also a long video of pro-Maidan helping out the folks who were ...

... burned and beaten.
I also watched a long video where it appeared that what happened was that after the tent encampment was burned someone took a burning piece of it and flung it into the ground floor of the building.
Either way, the point here is to hope this doesn't turn into an all-out civil war. It's pretty obvious the pro-Russian side is trying as hard as it can to make it into that for obvious reasons. For similarly obvious reasons, the saner people on the pro-Maidan side are trying just as hard to prevent such a thing.

[Duckhunter935]

32. quiet

that does not fit the narrative. One side good, one side bad fascists.

[newthinking]

37. There are several narratives. My post does mention it by the way

Why do some people here insist on posing everyone in a stereotype? It closes your mind to real events as they happen, which indeed are incredibly complex, with good and bad guys.

Can't we agree that the ones who threw the cocktails as well as the ones who were involved in killings on *both* sides should all go before a Jury? The trouble is, that there is little justice in Ukraine currently. And the narratives in the west are mostly interested in avoiding casting the current government or movements in a bad light. So anyone who brings out facts of situations that don't fit that narrative are looked upon with suspicion or as "propagandists".

There are "bad guys" in both groups, but the narrative is so slanted there is not much reason to accentuate things already in the current narrative. All the **real** propaganda confuses it when people try to expose further detail and information. If you have accepted the current viewpoint, which is heavily altered, of course you will be inclined to think of information outside that as propaganda (as people have been conditioned to think of it). Propaganda is so effective because it works. Not to mention indeed it is difficult to figure out which information is right or wrong.

Just listen with an open mind and try to do away with the stereotypes and pre-conceptions. We are after all mostly liberals here, and generally pretty intelligent people.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

63. What I want is simple: peace.

Elections were scheduled by the current gov for May 25. As a result of annexing Crimea, the "pro-Russian" side doesn't have much chance since so many of those people are no longer going to be able to vote in that election. So of course their interest lies in preventing those elections from taking place. Hence the instability.

[newthinking]

65. Unfortunately they never had a chance to be represented

The party organization was completely destroyed or members/families threatened. Their buildings burned down.
There was no way they were going to be able to mount a challenge. The frontrunner was recently beaten and threatened and dropped out.

[bemildred]

11. Pro-Russians storm Odessa police station, PM slams local police

(Reuters) - Pro-Russian militants stormed a Ukrainian police station in Odessa on Sunday and freed 30 fellow activists as the prime minister blamed police corruption there for dozens of deaths in rioting on Friday.

"Russians won't abandon their own!" militants chanted as they smashed windows and broke down the gate at the compound, where comrades had been held since Friday's mayhem. Others shouted "Russia! Russia!" and "we will not forgive!"

Odessa police said 30 activists had been released.

Some police officers were offered the black and orange St. George's ribbon, a Russian military insignia that has become a symbol of the revolt, and were cheered when they accepted it.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/04/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA400LI20140504

[bemildred]

12. Ukraine crisis: Odessa detainees freed as police HQ attacked

---

The initially peaceful rally turned violent as protesters - some wearing masks and carrying improvised weapons - broke windows and forced the gates.

A number of those detained were then released by the police, apparently in an attempt to pacify the crowds. There were chants of "Russia, Russia" and "Russians won't abandon their own".

The Daily Telegraph's Roland Oliphant, at the scene, said Ukrainian flags had been pulled down and replaced with the Odessa city flag as tempers flared. Protesters used a lorry to force their way into the police compound.

Reuters news agency quoted police as saying 30 people had been freed.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27276120

[newthinking]

38. What happened yesterday may be a huge turning point for the worst

The videos are all over and Ukrainians are very internet savvy and people there on both sides are pissed

[bemildred]

40. Yep. That massacre will have consequences. nt

[newthinking]

70. So as it turns out they actually strolled up rather calmly. Like that wording though... "Stormed"!

I posted the BBC video that shows probably close to 60 or 70 Riot police basically refusing to do anything. May 2cd may have been a turning point.

[bemildred]

71. Yeah, but turning towards what? That's the question.

In uncertain times, with domestic rather than foreign enemies, it is not unusual for the security services to avoid taking sides. The Kiev government is dubious at best, and they are outnumbered, and they live there.

It takes a while to work up to the sort of thing you see in Syria now, it's not like flipping a switch.

What happened on the second gave the pro-Russians a giant bloody shirt to wave, is what it did.

Edit: "Stormed", well, that's how they do it, I'm so used to it I hardly notice as I filter it out. It provides an emotional slant and it creates ambiguity about what happened. I can live with ambiguity.

[bemildred]

14. Russia sees push for Ukraine "dialogue" with rebels soon

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia said on Sunday that the Kiev government needed help to establish a dialogue with pro-Russian activists in southeastern Ukraine and that steps would soon be taken to bring this about.

"It appears that without external help the Kiev authorities are not capable of establishing such a dialogue," Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin told Rossiya-24 television.

He said a Ukrainian military operation, aimed at retaking rebel-held territory, was in breach of an agreement signed in Geneva last month that was intended to defuse the crisis.

"In the coming days, new efforts will be taken ... to sit the Kiev authorities and representatives of the south-east at the negotiating table," Karasin said.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/nationworld/sns-rt-us-ukraine-crisis-dialogue-20140504,0,4806008.story

[Adrahil]

24. Russia has nearly destabilized Ukraine enough to move to the final act. NT.

[newthinking]

39. There is plenty of blame to go around if you keep an open mind

Instead of believing an inaccurate view tied to somebodies interests. There was a time when we had a lot of ability to put pressure on everyone to work out a solution, but I am not sure that will even be possible anymore.

[bemildred]

15. Ukraine violence spreads as Kiev’s grip loosens

MOSCOW—Fighting in Ukraine grew more widespread as the Kiev government stepped up a campaign to quell a pro-Russian insurgency, with clashes reported in several cities and local defense battalions being formed in two regions that had previously been unaffected by the unrest.

Clashes in at least six eastern cities over the weekend followed the deadliest day of the weeks-old conflict on Friday, which involved clashes and a major fire in the Black Sea city of Odessa that left 46 people dead. Earlier that day, Ukrainian forces relaunched an offensive to reclaim control of the rebel stronghold of Slovyansk, surrounding the city.

On Sunday, several hundred pro-Russian protesters gathered outside Odessa’s central police station, demanding the release of those arrested during Friday’s fatal rioting, the Ukrainian Interior Ministry said. Local news reports said that the crowd threw bricks at the building and tried to force their way inside but were initially driven back.

Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk on Sunday blamed the country’s security services for failing to stop Friday’s violence in Odessa. He said there would be a “full, comprehensive and independent investigation,” and that all those who helped instigate the violence would be tracked down.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ukraine-violence-spreads-as-kievs-grip-loosens-2014-05-04

[bemildred]

43. In Ukraine, separatists seize one of last government sites in Donetsk

Reporting from Donetsk, Ukraine—
A crowd of more than 2,000 pro-Russia separatists on Sunday night seized one of the last key official sites in the eastern Ukraine city of Donetsk still in the hands of the country’s interim government.

The demonstrators, some armed with sticks and shields and at least one carrying a hunting rifle, marched about two miles across Donetsk and broke down the doors to the military prosecutor's office, raising the banner of their movement from the roof.

The building was unguarded, with a couple of police officers standing at a distance looking bored.

The military prosecutor's office joined the Donetsk regional administration building, Ukraine's Security Service station and other official sites now in the hands of a pro-Russia rebellion that has engulfed at least two regions in eastern Ukraine.

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-wn-ukraine-separatists-donetsk-20140504,0,7658585.story

[bemildred]

44. Ukraine Situation 'Worse and Worse,' Peskov Says

Amid calls to send Russian troops to quell violence in Ukraine's east, President Vladimir Putin is monitoring the situation closely and holding meetings and calls with relevant officials day and night, his spokesman said Sunday.

"We believe we should have a common interpretation of what is happening in Ukraine, but unfortunately we do not see that Europe and the U.S. are sane in their assessments," Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told The Moscow Times in a phone interview.

"Russia is trying to achieve tangible results as we saw in the case of the release of OSCE observers, but despite our efforts, the situation there is only getting worse," he said.

Last week, Putin sent his envoy Vladimir Lukin to the city of Slovyansk, a stronghold of pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine's east, to help negotiate the release of 12 European military observers on Saturday.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/ukraine-situation-worse-and-worse-peskov-says/499387.html

[bemildred]

45. Ukraine crisis: Far from the fractious east, unwilling Odessa plunged into violence after deadly bla

A mob has attacked a police station in the Ukrainian port city of Odessa, forcing the release of dozens of pro-Russian activists arrested after more than 40 died in violent clashes that have pushed the country closer to civil war.

Chanting “Odessa is a Russian City” and “Russians won’t abandon their own”, a crowd estimated by one eyewitness at 2,000 broke through a gate into an inner court yard of the police station and smashed windows. The Interior Ministry said a total of 67 prisoners were released.

They were among about 170 people detained on Friday after running street battles broke out between pro-Kiev football fans and supporters of Moscow. More than 40 people were killed – most in a building fire – in what has been described as the “Odessa Massacre”.

While there has been unrest in eastern parts of the country since Russia annexed the Crimean peninsula, Odessa is near the country’s western border with Moldova.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-crisis-far-from-the-fractious-east-unwilling-odessa-plunged-into-violence-after-deadly-blaze-9321796.html

[bemildred]

46. Ukraine: Germany calls for 2nd Geneva conference

Germany called on Sunday for a second Geneva conference to defuse the escalating crisis over Ukraine as Russia and Kyiv continued to accuse each of undermining a previous deal reached in April.

Steinmeier said he had proposed a fresh round of Geneva talks during telephone conversations with EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton, US Secretary of State John Kerry, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE).

"In the many discussions I've had in the last couple of hours, I've been campaigning ... to hold a second meeting in Geneva to follow up on the first one," he told ARD television, according to a text of an interview aired Sunday (04.05.2014).

Steinmeier said Friday's violence in Ukraine's southern city of Odessa was a "tragedy" that "must be a wake-up call for all participants."

http://www.dw.de/ukraine-germany-calls-for-2nd-geneva-conference/a-17612046

[The Magistrate]

49. No Conference, Sir, Will Be Worth a Fig Unless Putin Decides To Call off His People In Ukraine

The military backbone of what is happening in the east remains covert assets from Russia, and the continuing threat of Russian invasion and annexation.

[newthinking]

54. Many of the citizens in the country would disagree

You do your mind an injustice not to consider the half of the country that is very alarmed and unhappy, out of work, have seen relatives or friends beaten. Or who simply are more in touch than those of us in the US and know about all the neo-nazi's in high places in the administration.

It is expressing a kind of contempt of half of the country to present this as completely a geopolitical tug of war. Have you considered that?

[The Magistrate]

55. The Noise You Make, Sir, Is Not Worth More Than a Toddler's Tantrum

When I want Russian propaganda, I tune in to RT. The original is always to be preferred....

[RedFury]

60. Link? n/t

[The Magistrate]

61. Pure Gold, Sir

[maddezmom]

66. Well played, Sir!

[The Magistrate]

68. Thank You, Ma'am

I see the fellow above deleted his calling me an asshole in his post 64 before it could be removed....

[bemildred]

69. Kiev’s hold on ‘Novorossiya’ slips away as militants overrun Odessa police station

Russian-speaking regions of Ukraine spun further out of the central government’s control Sunday as a mob stormed a police station in this Black Sea port and freed from detention 67 pro-Russian militants, on the same day that Ukraine’s prime minister was visiting the city.

It was intended to be a chance for the prime minister, Arseniy P. Yatsenyuk, to express condolences for the dozens of people who died here Friday in street fighting and in a horrific fire at a trade union building, and to reinforce the government’s narrative that Russia and inept or disloyal local police were to blame.

Speaking at a news conference, Mr. Yatsenyuk cast aspersion on the police, suggesting that if they had done their jobs instead of concentrating on soliciting bribes at an outdoor market, “these terrorist organizations would have been foiled.”

“There were dozens of casualties resulting from a well-prepared and organized action against people, against Ukraine and against Odessa,” Mr. Yatsenyuk said, speaking at the news conference Sunday morning, Western and Ukrainian news media reported.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/kievs-hold-on-novorossiya-slips-away/article18457563/

[JackRiddler]

74. You can tell propaganda by the loaded terms.

"Pro-Russian" vs. "Pro-Ukrainian". Yeah, that's the fairy tale that the neoliberal head of the coup d'etat government and his Western sponsors want to tell.

Some call for unity: After burning a few dozen people to death, his side is now going to blame it on the "pro-Russian" side and bring them to justice!