Ukraine crisis: Rebels 'retreating' in Sloviansk

[al bupp]

Source: BBC News

Pro-Russian militants just outside Sloviansk have retreated amid attacks by Ukrainian troops, reports say.

Government forces took control of a TV tower in the suburbs and rebels were pulled back deeper into the city, the Russian Interfax news agency said.

Earlier reports told of heavy gunfire, apparently closer to the centre than in recent days.

But a BBC team which has recently reached the centre of Sloviansk says the city is currently quiet.

Read more: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27280814

[bemildred]

1. Heavy fighting after Ukrainian forces ambushed on edge of Slaviansk-minister

SLAVIANSK, Ukraine, May 5 (Reuters) - Pro-Russian separatists ambushed Ukrainian forces on Monday, triggering heavy fighting on the outskirts of the rebel stronghold of Slaviansk, Interior Minister Arsen Avakov was quoted as saying.

A Reuters correspondent said at least two separatist armoured personnel carriers and several rebels fled the area, where almost continuous gunfire had been heard since morning.

The gunfire seemed closer to Slaviansk, in eastern Ukraine, than a day earlier.

"In the morning, a squad in the anti-terrorist operation was hit by an ambush by terrorist groups. They are using heavy weapons," Avakov was quoted as saying by Interfax-Ukraine news agency near Slaviansk.

http://www.trust.org/item/20140505101321-ovkwp/

[bemildred]

2. Pro-Russia Splinter State Issues Call to Arms in Eastern Ukraine

Pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine called for an armed insurrection against the country's new Western-backed government on Monday.

The Donetsk People's Republic, a self-proclaimed splinter state that has taken over part

The group urged people to use the "unconditional right of all the citizens to take up arms and to conduct a sacred war." It said the insurrection would take place on Friday, the anniversary of Victory Day when Nazi Germany capitulated to the Soviet Union in World War II.

"We urge you to mark Victory Day on May 9 the same way as our grandfathers and great grandfathers did, to give battle to the ... new fascist boot that is stamping on our land, burning, killing and crippling people," it said in a statement on its website.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/pro-russia-splinter-state-issues-call-arms-eastern-ukraine-n97001

[bemildred]

3. Fighting in east Ukraine kills 4 troops, wounds 30

SLOVYANSK, Ukraine (AP) — Ukrainian troops fought pitched gunbattles Monday with a pro-Russia militia occupying an eastern city, and the government sent an elite national guard unit to re-establish control over the southern port city of Odessa.

The twin moves reflected an apparent escalation of efforts to bring both regions back under Kiev's control. Any possible loss of Odessa in the west and parts of eastern Ukraine could leave the sprawling country landlocked, cut off entirely from the Black Sea. Russia has already annexed a significant part of Ukraine's Black Sea coast in grabbing back the peninsula of Crimea.

Associated Press reporters heard gunfire and multiple explosions Monday in and around Slovyansk, a city of 125,000 that has become the focus of the armed insurgency against the new interim government in Kiev.

Interior Minister Arsen Avakov said on his agency's website that pro-Russia forces numbering about 800 were deploying large-caliber weapons and mortars. His agency reported four officers killed and 30 wounded in the fighting.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/may/05/victim-of-ukraine-violence-buried-in-odessa/

[The Magistrate]

5. An Interesting Round-Up, Sir: Thank You

It will be a while before a coherent account shakes out of all this....

[bemildred]

4. Ukrainian troops clash with pro-Russia militia in gun battles around Slavyansk

Ukrainian troops have fought pitched gun battles with a pro-Russia militia occupying an eastern city – an apparent escalation of their efforts to bring the region back under government control.

Associated Press reporters heard gunfire and multiple explosions in and around Slavyansk, a city of 125,000 people that has become the focus of the armed insurgency against the interim government in Kiev.

The Ukrainian interior minister, Arsen Avakov, said on his agency's website that pro-Russia forces were deploying large-calibre weapons and mortars in the region and that there were casualties on both sides.

Government troops were facing about 800 insurgents, he said.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/05/ukrainian-troops-clash-pro-russia-milita-gun-battles-slavyansk

[bemildred]

6. Ukraine moving police special forces to control Odessa

* Kiev to send new special forces to control Odessa

* Slams police after pro-Russia activists freed

* Pro-Moscow groups see Kiev promoting "fascist" groups

* Fighting continues in eastern city of Slaviansk (Adds detail throughout)

http://www.trust.org/item/20140505120903-mu6h2/

[Jesus Malverde]

20. So Kiev is losing the west part of the country too,

Now they need to send in "special forces"

Seeing the video of the massacre in odessa made it clear the fascists were only passing through. The people of Odessa have no love for those monsters.

[bemildred]

23. It's not clear yet.

What happened in Odessa is murky, at best, as one expects with roaming mobs. But it raises the question of control in the south too.

[Jesus Malverde]

26. The truth is plain to see on Youtube...

Unfiltered by spin artists from PR firms.

Listen to the drivel from Time Magazine

Ukraine’s Interior Minister Arsen Avakov said on Monday that a new special forces unit had been drafted in Odessa, the southwestern port town, following recent violence between pro-Russian separatists and police that left dozens dead.

One could naively imagine that it was the police who killed the protestors. Missing from the whole narrative, fascist soccer hooligans.

Time magazine isn't even trying with their shitty propaganda any more.



Anyway have you seen my peace dividend? Invest in America or the war machine, the choices are simple.

[bemildred]

28. I see a lot of cognitive disconnect. Binary thinking will do that to you.

The media are a reliable source for the government point of view, that's their job.

[bemildred]

7. NEW - Ukraine needs a diplomatic, not military, solution

If you want to know what I think, this is what I think, although this fellow says it better than I would.

Brush aside both the Kremlin and Kiev propaganda machines: In a de-facto state of Cold War, both of them are respectively biased and non-objective. The Russian one has a single task now - to mobilize Russian public opinion in support of Kremlin's Ukrainian policy. That's what journalists are paid for, and that's how they earn their wages. Kiev’s mass-media are a distorted mirroring replica today, with one difference: The events they cover are happening in Ukraine, NOT Russia. Therefore, every word they drop has much more of direct implication on what happens on the ground.

One of the most horrible mistakes the regime in Kiev (supported by Ukrainian mass media) is doing now is introducing into the public psyche two opposing and confronting cliches: "pro-Russian separatists = terrorists," and "pro-Ukrainian activists" ( meaning "kind of the right guys&quot .

What would it mean in a country like Ukraine?

Let's look at facts, not cliches. As of 2013, roughly 20 percent of the Ukrainian population (a total of 45 million people at the time) declared themselves ethnically Russian - that gives us roughly 9 million people. After centuries of living in the same country (first the Russian Empire, then the USSR) many more are an ethnically-mixed Ukrainian-Russian "blend," with varying self-identification choices, which brings the so-called "Russian or pro-Russian" population to unknown dimensions.

After Crimea's departure, the total population of Ukraine supposedly dropped to 43 million - still leaving at least around 8 million ethnic Russians in mainland Ukraine.

http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/34820/

[The Magistrate]

8. It May Need One, Sir, But It Will Not Get One

The clear Russian intent to dismember it, and annex portions of it, and resolve to do so by force, whether applied covertly or otherwise, makes any diplomatic solution impossible.

As a general rule, whenever it is said of a developing conflict that 'it needs a diplomatic solution, not a military solution', no chance of a diplomatic solution actually exists....

[ballyhoo]

11. Too late for that. Too much damage

and need for revenge. And whatever brainchild posted the
story about the CIA and FBI now training Kiev in security matters
did not help. Will the next story be about Victoria Nuland dropping
cake out of airplanes? Something happening here. What it is ain't
exactly clear...

[bemildred]

12. If you read it, that's what he says: partition is inevitable now, and then the consequences

of that. But first we will have a war.

[ballyhoo]

13. Yeah. My bad. I can't read stuff

that small anymore. So, all is going according to plan?

[bemildred]

14. No, I don't think so.

That CIA/FBI story you mention, for example, shows that it's not going well for the Kiev government, they aren't there because everything is under control. They have a very awkward situation to deal with, the Kiev government, they have to control the East economically and politically to get the bailouts they need from the IMF etc., so they can't really federalize to the extent the Russians demand, since they demand lots of local autonomy, hence the resort to force. The resort to force, on the other hand leads to the defacto partition he suggests in the piece we are discussing.

[The Magistrate]

15. And Here You Put Your Finger On The Problem, Sir

"...so they can't really federalize to the extent the Russians demand..."

Russia has no more right to demand anything in Ukraine than we would in a neighboring country. Who would defend or excuse a U.S. demand for an alteration in the relation of Mexico's states to that country's Federal government, or a U.S. demand that Canada re-draw its provincial map, to cut out as separate areas which are heavily involved in trade with the U.S., and especially who would defend or excuse such a demand if it was backed by bodies of troops mobilized to the border and covert operatives seizing government and police facilities?

The pressures leading to both the possibility of partition and the resort to violence by Ukraine's government to suppress looming secession are external, applied from Russia; they are not things arising naturally to their present pitch from internal conditions.

[ballyhoo]

16. Yes, but doesn't this point to Russia's becoming

a stalking horse undercutting Ukrainian independence? There were two Russian plans on the table from what I read. This was the second.

[bemildred]

17. Perhaps if you clarify what you mean about two plans?

I am aware of one Russian public position, which amounts to "we want to keep our economic and political influence in the East", but it's hard to keep up.

[ballyhoo]

18. One plan was a disguised invasion, where invasion

seemed unlikely, for one because there were not enough medical units accompanying the troops. This plan does not go along with all those who say invasion not on the table--the quest was for Federalism. The second plan is the stalking horse plan where Ukraine gets independence with Russia the monitor.

I can't keep up either; I'm currently doing the graphics for 26 congratulatory cards for the nurses week at my wife's Alzheimer's hospital. I have to keep checking that I'm not writing "comrade" on one of the cards. Sorry.

[bemildred]

19. Invasion has always been on the table.

Even Russia says so. Lots of dick waving all around.

The second plan is the preferred Russian outcome, I think. Much cheaper. At this point I don't expect Putin will invade unless the pro-Russian irregulars or whatever one wants to call them look to be in danger of losing, which I think is unlikely, as the fellow said. But you have to expect other parties to jump in and offer financial and logistics support, and Russia will too, so things can drag on indefinitely that way.

[ballyhoo]

21. Okay. I am not as sanguine as you

of the unlikeliness of the Russian irregulars calling for help, but we'll have to see. Whenever there's a "lot of dick waving around" [I don't think Duke University would like that], there is also the reverse of that considering retreat strategies. [Duke may may not like this either]. Your last sentence is exactly what will happen, which will prolong everything until at least mid-July.

[bemildred]

22. Oh, they are calling for help now, they have been. It's not secret.

Yeah, indefinitely, it can go on.

You have to factor in other questions too: elections. War means no elections. The Kiev government wants to stop the Donetsk election, and the pro-Russian side wants to stop or de-legitimze the May 25th elections. War works great for that.

[ballyhoo]

24. Yes, well, this I don't like. I think

they should call an extended truce and bring some third parties in and have some elections, monitored by Nordic countries. The US and the Russians will be advised to stay out and pull their spy functionaries out. Anyway, I've got to go buy some Minties for my dogs, bemildred. As always, nice talking to you. Do you know Catherina? See ya later.

[bemildred]

25. I'm not happy either.

Yes, I know Catherina. We talk here sometimes.

[ballyhoo]

27. Well, State, should bring

you, Catherina and Sebrina in on geo-political problems for consult.
Later.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

32. Did Catherina discuss with you "unprincipled fucktard liberals"?

Her words, not mine:

https://twitter.com/pmsxa/status/462356204287950848

[ballyhoo]

35. Not posting, Carcetti...

we are at another board. I'll miss your succinct posts and your discussion type posts where A and B are talking. You do that very well. I think Putin is using the want to postpone the referendum as a ruse because he needs time to relocate the SS-29's. Notice he is no longer telling Lithuania about Kalinigrad Weaponry. Anyway, beginning to dig a hole again in the back yard as is one other neighbor. Closed the hole up years ago after the pause before we went rogue. Start watching the West's responses to everything more closely. It's all performance art. Later, Carcetti.

[The Magistrate]

37. Warning Of Nuclear War, Sir, Is As Outlandish As the Rest Of Your Ouvre....

Here is your record, for those not yet familiar with it, of hate-site links and endorsements of ethnic cleansing directed at Roma and backing for Putin's persecution of gays and lesbians....

First link to hidden post, second to jury results.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014787623#post7

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014787623#post10

And again, first to hidden post, second to jury results:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014797263#post48

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014797263#post52

As a bit of icing on the cake, we have a ringing endorsement of ethnic cleansing aimed at Roma, here:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014790244#post13

And now, with "he maintains a morality that suits the greatest percentage of his people" we find you endorsing persecution of gays and lesbians, laws against 'homosexual propaganda', police tolerance of gang attacks on gay people, among other things.....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014798476#post11

[Tommy_Carcetti]

40. I'm thinking The Guardian might have been onto something. nt

[bemildred]

38. It would not be the first time, but I don't believe she ever did.

I tend to tune people our when they start swearing.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

33. Did she tell you about "unprincipled fucktard liberals"?

https://twitter.com/pmsxa/status/462356204287950848

[The Magistrate]

36. Interesting find, Sir

[Tommy_Carcetti]

39. She was quite the charmer. nt

[sendero]

34. I'm pretty tired of the..

... "ethnic Russian" bullshit. If you are "ethnic Russian" that does not give you land rights. If you wish, move your ass to Russia.

The idiocy thrown out as some sort of sensible discourse is wearing. It doesn't matter if 100% of the country is "ethnic Russian". Some 30% of the US is "ethnically Hispanic", does that mean we should cede 30% of our land to Mexico? Not gonna happen.

And as for the Ukrainian gov't - their mistake was sitting on their hands for weeks. They should have sent in the tanks the day those fucks took over buildings and no one should have left without being in a body bag or handcuffs.

[bemildred]

9. Ukraine: Helicopter Shot Down Over Slavyansk

A Ukrainian helicopter has been shot down over the pro-Russian stronghold of Slavyansk as fighting there continues to worsen.

Ukraine's defence ministry said the pilots had survived but elsewhere in the east of the country four paramilitary policemen were shot dead in fighting.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/ukraine-helicopter-shot-down-over-slavyansk-89928

[bemildred]

10. Ukraine denies military operation amid reported clashes

---

Clashes reportedly took place in the town of Semenevka in Slavyansk. Separatist spokeswoman Stella Horosheva said a large number of pro-Russian sympathisers died in the clashes without specifying how many.

Horosheva also claimed civilians were among the dead and that Ukrainian government forces had blocked ambulances from arriving to the scene.

However, Ukraine’s Security Service spokeswoman, Marina Ostapenko, denied that there was any military operation in Slavyansk.

“There are no anti-terrorism operations being conducted in Slavyansk at the moment,” Ostapenko said. “The conflicts in the region could be between criminal gangs.”

http://www.aa.com.tr/en/rss/323077--ukraine-denies-military-operation-amid-reported-clashes

[dipsydoodle]

29. Interfax Ukraine coveys differently

according to Kiev Post :

Sloviansk pro-Russian militants have to retreat.

Ukrainian troops have fully encircled Sloviansk and are moving inside the city, the Donetsk region's separatists headquarters told Interfax-Ukraine, adding that some people have been hurt in the fighting.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/sloviansk-pro-russian-militants-have-to-retreat-346353.html

6:16 p.m. | Ukraine was 4.16 pm BST in London

[bemildred]

31. Yes, I think she is catching up. nt

[bemildred]

30. Residents of eastern Ukraine cities struggle to go on with life

The farmer slowly walked up the hill toward her barn, with her driver following behind in the minivan. She waved her arms to be seen by the Ukrainian paratroops guarding a nearby television tower. She knew her vehicle might look suspicious and hoped her desperate signals would convince the soldiers she meant no harm.

The paratroops had taken back control of the tower from gunmen two days before. It was a small skirmish in a conflict that has turned this town — and much of eastern Ukraine — into a battleground between pro-Russia separatists and the nation's struggling interim government.

Caught between the factions, farmer Inna Zakharova — like so many Ukrainians in the east — is struggling to go on with life amid the chaos and violence.

"My season plans go down the drain with this war," Zakharova, 35, said Sunday. "I have 20 hectares of local land to plant onions, potatoes, cabbages and carrots, but my seasonal workers are afraid to come to Slovyansk now."

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-ukraine-turmoil-20140505,0,4826799.story