Mideast Conflict: Palestinian Rocket Fire Persists After Israel Agrees To Gaza Ceasefire Proposal
Source: Huff Po
GAZA/JERUSALEM, July 15 (Reuters) - Palestinian militants fired rockets at Israel on Tuesday after it agreed to an Egyptian proposal to end the week-old Gaza conflict, and a Hamas leader said the Islamist group was still undecided on whether to accept the ceasefire.
Under the terms of the blueprint announced by Egypt - whose military-backed government has been at odds with Hamas - a mutual "de-escalation" of fighting was to begin at 9 a.m. (0600 GMT), with hostilities ceasing within 12 hours
Read more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/15/mideast-conflict-palestinian-rocket-fire_n_5586930.html
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kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)rounded up and imprisoned without any charges for the slaying of the three Israeli teenagers. Hundreds were taken into custody and are still being held including young children. I am so heart sick of Israeli collective punishment and occupation and genocide of the Palestinians.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Response to kelliekat44 (Reply #1)
cerveza_gratis This message was self-deleted by its author.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)Israel knew they were murdered and not kidnapped. Israel's government lied to the Israeli public and the parents of the murdered kids that the kids could still be alive.
Israel's government lied to the Israeli public and claimed that Hamas was behind the murders.
Israel's government did all of that to give them an excuse to go on a rampage throughout Palestine and enforce their extreme racist policy.
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)Until the PA turned over the names of the suspects, a couple of young men heavily involved in a Hamas splinter faction that has consistently and successfully derailed peace talks for decades.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)Otherwise, it's CT bullshit.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)Israel had a tape of the murder, but they issued a gag order to prevent the public from finding out the the victims were likely already dead: http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Brothers-Keeper/In-extended-version-of-kidnapped-teens-call-to-police-murderers-heard-singing-in-celebration-361270
Israeli authorities lied to the parents and told them the kids were likely still alive and that the gun shots heard on the tapes were blanks: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/182438#.U8UuZZRdWSp
Israel has provided no evidence that Hamas was responsible for the killings. Israel has conducted mass arrests in Palestine and refuses to release them even though Israel knows who committed the murders.
samsingh
(17,598 posts)happyslug
(14,779 posts)The three teens who were kidnapped and killed were kidnapped and kill IN THE WEST BANK.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_Israeli_teenagers
Yet the attack to end such killings is on Gaza????
This is almost as bad as when Bush decided that since the 911 attackers were from Saudi Arabia and Egypt and had been trained in Afghanistan, he must attack Iraq to revenge that attack.
Now, Hamas has said it will kidnap Israelis, but only as a bargaining chip to force Israel to release some Palestinian prisoners (Thus killing the kidnapped victim is counter productive). Thus the murder was not part of anyone's plans that we know of. On the other hand the kidnapping had been in the West Bank, an area controlled by the PLO NOT Gaza, where Hamas is in control (Israel, itself separates the two half of "Palestine"
.
samsingh
(17,598 posts)
aceofblades
(73 posts)Getting to a negotiating table by agreeing to stop the bullets and bombs flying while it's going on. Looking at it from Hamas' perspective, they could demand the release of prisoners as part of a longer term truce. And if not they could say they tried.
Now with israel agreeing and Hamas not, it looks worse among many international observers(and I don't mean the U.S.) but other "persuadables". It is those international brokers of peace that will have to be the referees here(as tainted as they may be) and the continued rocket attacks give them less reason (and less pressure domestically in many situations) to push for an end to the violence.
Instead it's "both sides to blame" or "israel is completely justified" or "hamas is completely justified, which get's us no where other than the current status quo of continued fighting. And "status quo" is bad for Palestinians disproportionately from a casualty perspective.
The rocket attacks do not work practically(iron dome) and also have undeniable PR and human cost(exact by israel however unjustifiably)
EX500rider
(10,845 posts)...one of the fastest growing populations in the world.
Total lack of understanding of what the world entails and a insult to actual genocide.
The population of the Gaza Strip increased by almost 40% between 1997 and 2007, according to the results of a Palestinian census.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7891434.stm
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)When will the Israeli government agree to opening at least one crossing point for normal commerce and travel, perhaps an Egyptian one? A gesture like that may well break the deadlock and bring this disgraceful slaughter to a true end?
former9thward
(32,003 posts)Why would they agree to open up their border?
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)The siege of Gaza is a crime against humanity. It must be ended if there is ever to be peace.
former9thward
(32,003 posts)That is the "commerce" and "travel" you get there.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)One does not make peace by disarming only one side of a conflict. That is called military victory, and Israel has been trying that route for decades with no success. It might be necessary to leave both sides armed to achieve real peace? Doesn't the UN Charter give Palestinians (along with everyone else) the right to defend themselves from attack?
There needs to be a peace agreement and an end to the siege of Gaza first, then, if you like, we can see about transforming the Middle East into a weapons free zone
former9thward
(32,003 posts)It has been surrounded for 66 years by nations that hate it and would like to see every Jew drowned in the Mediterranean Sea. There are about 150 million people in the countries that surround Israel who has a population of about 8 million. It is a great military victory that they are even still alive.
Rhinodawg
(2,219 posts)no shit.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Hated by her neighbors and despised by most of the rest of the World. They have squandered a wealth of good will on their greedy seizure of others' land, and on vain military adventures which will eventually have to be paid for at a terrible, human price.
Israel is a military disaster. She is wedded to reliance on armed might and our UNSC veto. Neither of those props will support the modern State of Israel for very much longer. If she does not change her ways, and soon, it may well be all over for her before we even realize it.
former9thward
(32,003 posts)That is nothing new. The only land Israel has ever seized is land lost by the Arab states in their various wars of attempted extinction. If the Arabs had accepted the UN mandate none of this would have ever happened.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)After the genocide against European Jews in WWII, Jewish people, and, in particular, the newly created State of Israel, enjoyed a powerful surge in popularity, approval and support from nearly every corner of the planet. That new found support didn't really begin to weaken until after the 1967, "Six Day War." Since then, of course, Israel's wealth of international good will has been greatly depleted by reactions to the Israeli government's brutal, senseless treatment of the Palestinians.
hack89
(39,171 posts)is when the blockade will stop.
How do you guarantee that Hamas will not take advantage of such a gesture and rearm with even more powerful weapons?
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)There will never be a moderate government which popularly represents the Palestinian people until they no longer live under Israeli occupation, without sovereignty or independence, tormented by their long-term oppressors. Until the occupation ends, Palestinians will always choose militants who promise a chance to be free.
hack89
(39,171 posts)it is prudence.
Hamas will always find a way to reject peace, whether it be insisting on complete RoR, 1947 borders, or East Jerusalem. They can never be allowed to think they can achieve their goals through violence. Once the people of Gaza have enough of them and get rid of them is when there will be peace.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Israel needs to forget for the moment about getting even with a few thousand Hamas members, and do something positive for the great mass of millions of Palestinian people. If an effort is never made to win over the Palestinian people, this war will go on forever, or until the eventual destruction of modern Israel.
hack89
(39,171 posts)but I doubt the people in Israel would support it.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)But do not try to justify killing hundreds of Palestinian civilians because you can't stop the criminals committing their criminal acts. War crimes are not magically made legal just because conditions seem to require that one resort to them.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Who has jurisdiction to arrest and try them? If they are legitimately elected government then shooting rockets is an act of war, not a crime.
Did you even think before posting that?
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)I don't think so, and neither does international law or simple human justice.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Israel cannot indiscriminately kill civilians but then neither are they expect to not defend themselves. Think about it - Hama's war plans are built around the use of human shields. You seem to think that it is ok. I don't.
kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)Goliath. If the Palestinians could only equal Israel in defense and weapons Israel would come to the peace table. As long as Israel, supported by the US and the EU, can thumb its nose at international law without consequences (nations cannot even boycott Israeli products) Israel will never allow the Palestinians to live peace. Thus, there will be peace for no one. Listen to today's Democracy Now discussion and hear the real truth behind this latest Israeli atrocity.
hack89
(39,171 posts)because then it would be a real war with everything that a modern real war would entail. The day Hamas can threaten the actual existence of Israel is the day gets serious.
EX500rider
(10,845 posts)....and committed terrorists activities in the Sinai and set off bombs at Red Sea resorts. Not surprising Egypt doesn't want open borders with them and for the same reason Israel doesn't.
Chemisse
(30,811 posts)Then they expect the Palestinians are going to thank them and say "yes mastah" because they agreed to stop?
I am so sick of this.
It's like having a neighborhood kid throwing rocks at your house. Nobody gets hurt - but they COULD have. So you riddle the kid with a machine gun, all the while proclaiming what a victim you are.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)Hamas was closely connected to the Moslem Brotherhood, thus if the present Egyptian Government wants to end the fighting, it has to deal with Hamaz through the Moslem Brotherhood (which leadership is in Jail, with many sentenced to death by the present Government of Egypt).
Worse, it appears the lower half of the Egyptian Population support the Moslem Brotherhood (Actual numbers appear to be 50-60% of the population, the bottom 10% will support whoever can pay them, thus politically irrelevant except as hired thugs, the next 50-60% of the population support the Moslem Brotherhood, with part of that group, nor more then 10 percentage points, supporting pseudo-communists who prefer the Moslem Brotherhood to the present Government). You then have the remaining 30-40% of the population who support the present Government, this includes the Christians of Egypt who basically run the economy not tied in with the Military.
The Egyptian Army used supporters of Sufism in Egypt during the Coup, but once these people saw what the Military was doing economically, they defected from the Sufism (who were financed by Saudi Arabia) back to the Moslem Brotherhood.
Thus the present Egyptian Government is in a bind. What ever support it had from the Egyptian People disappeared with the brutal crackdown on the Moslem Brotherhood AND any real improvement in the economy (The later would have over come the former i.e. if they had been significant economic improvement for the lower half of the population, the crackdown on the Moslem Brotherhood would have had no affect on the population as a whole). The present government now has to work with Hamas, and to do that effectively the Egyptian Army must deal with the Moslem Brotherhood (who the Army do not really what to deal with).
Fascism has been defined as the policy of reducing wages in exchange for guaranteed employment (and that is the best definition for a government can be totalitarian and NOT be Fascist). Under Murabeck Egypt was a Fascist state. Wages were kept low in exchange for subsidized bread and Full Employment. That started to shatter around 2003 as the price of food increased world wide.
Side note: The actual price of bread in Egypt did NOT go up for that subsidy has been maintained not only by the present Rulers of Egypt but by the Moslem Brotherhood and even Murabeck when he ruled Egypt. The issue was the rapid increase in all other foods. food NOT subject to the general subsidy on the price of bread. Thus the increase in the price of Food in Egypt had to do with non-bread items not the price of bread. The problem was as wheat prices increased world wide, so did the price of all other foods, thus not only did the subsidy on bread had to be increased do to world wide increase in bread prices, but the poor of Egypt had to pay more for other food items. It was almost a one two punch, increase cost to the Government do to increase in the cost of the bread subsidy, AND an increase in what people had to pay for food, mostly non-bread foods.
Given the above, unrest occurred among the Egytian lower classes. While modern media was a factor in the overthrow of Murabeck, without the lower classes, who as a group do NOT speak English and have no access to modern media except through their religious leaders, the revolt would have fizzled.
Thus the lower half of the population look to the Moslem Brotherhood for leadership and the present rulers of Egypt knows that. The present rulers of Egypt have done everything they could to eliminate such leadership, and now they find themselves in a situation when they need that leadership to deal with Hamas. Thus my point this is a huge headache for the present rulers of Egypt, the real question is how they, Israel and the US will handle it.
hack89
(39,171 posts)not only will they not get in Israel's way but they are willing to provide Israel political cover by offering up ceasefire deals that they know Hamas will reject.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)Now, if Israel destroy Hamas and the present Government of Egypt can avoid blamed for leaving it happen, then the present Government of Egypt will do so. The problem is Egypt's failure to do anything will show that the Government is a puppet of Israel, and whatever support it has in Egypt will disappear.
Any government has to have so much popular support. Even Hitler and Stalin had popular support for their rule (any opposition was ruthlessly suppressed so no opposition was permitted to exists, but even then both Hitler and Stalin made every effort to show they were doing what the people wanted). A Government without popular support has to resort to increasing levels of force to stay in power. Sooner or later that becomes so unbalanced that if falls. The force can delay the fall, but not prevent it.
Thus the bind the present Egyptian government is in. Helping Hamas is popular in Egypt, who sees them as a fellow Arabs. Leaving Hamas be destroyed would make the existing government even weaker (The better option would be to invade Gaza to "protect" the residents of Gaza, and leave the Israeli army drive them out. It would be a massive defeat of the Army, but the present government can claim it did all it could and regain popular support for at least they tried something. The problem is such an attack would cut off American Aid, including free grain from the US, thus making the domestic unrest worse. Israel will hate the Egyptian Army for the number if Isrealis who get killed with increase tremendously.
Thus defending Gaza may be the Egyptian Government's best option, but it is also a bad option. Egypt's options are slowing becoming the following:
1. Do nothing, and take the hit from the lower classes that the Egyptian Army is nothing but a tool of Israel and the US, and thus lose what popular support this government has among its own people. Even the Christians in Egypt will abandon this government over leaving Gaza to be destroyed.
2. Attack Israel, gets its ass kicked thus showing they are incompetent in military operations as while as in the economy as the US cuts off food aid and either more money has to be spent on food for the poor or leave food prices rise and see riots in the streets.
Thus Egypt's options are growing more limited for it whats to avoid the above two options for both have huge ramifications even if successful (and most likely will be unsuccessful).
Reminds me of a Cartoon during the Falkland Crisis of 1982. One panel show the monument to the Argentina attempt to retake the Falklands, the next panel showed the monument to the British retaking the Falklands, then the third panel showed a blown up monument to US Latin American Policy (in many ways the US was the real loser in that war, we lost because it was fought). Egypt is facing a similar situation. Egyptian's options are limited, the real decision is picking the one that does the least harm to Egypt's present Government. I think an attack defending Gaza would do the least harm, especially if they tell Obama and Kerry that they have to agree unless Obama and Kerry want the Moslem Brotherhood back in charge of Egypt.
hack89
(39,171 posts)they will crush the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and help Israel crush Hamas. Then they will loosen their grip on the Egyptian people a little.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)The enlisted ranks come from the people, thus if the Army is told to suppress a revolt, its enlisted ranks will be reluctant to do so. This is most noticeable in draftee armies, such as Egypt's. Police and volunteers can do so much, but sooner or later you have to rely on your troops and if the troops do nothing, the military dictatorship loses power. That is what happen to Mubarak, he lost the support of the people and then lost control of Egypt.
It is a fallacy that dictatorship can survive without popular support. The people must see such dictators as being able to lead the country, if he can not they will just go on strike and force change.
As to countries with non-draftee armies, those troops are disconnected with the people as a whole and see the people as their enemies. The problem is such armies can never be large enough to put down a popular revolt. To make them large enough to do the job, the position in the ranks must be made for the people, and to get those people to enlist you have to get them to support the Government. If these new recruits do not support the Government, the army becomes useless for suppression. This is what happened to Mubarak when he was over thrown, and appears to be what happened during the Ukrainian coup. The Army units refused to do anything for they saw themselves as one with the people.
When the Egyptian Army overthrew Mursi, the crowds were all smaller and it was the POLICE that did most of the arresting and suppression. The Army units were kept in the bases or only permitted out to drive around town in shows of force, they were NOT use is the actual suppression of the various protests against the Coup (Thus why it took a couple of weeks to suppress all of the protests).
Now, special forces units were used in several locations as where special all volunteer units in special situations, but these were highly paid specialists not the conscripts of the Army. This is why the Moslem Brotherhood leadership had to be arrested, had enough escaped the dragnet they could have convinced the conscripts to disobey their officers and support Mursi. This was the big fear, thus you saw Troops going around Cairo in APCs but no soldiers actually outside those APCs except if they had riot equipment, which is only provided to troops trained for riot control NOT regular military operations (And such units tend to be all Volunteers for they see as a way to get into the Police forces).
Thus any military force is more effective if what it is doing is popular, for then it views itself one with the people and fights for the people. If what the Army is doing unpopular with the people, then that rejection of the operation will be rejected by the enlisted ranks, who will either dis obey orders (rare by happens) or just goes through the motions (Run tanks up to protesters, but refuse to run them over).
This is why the present Military dictatorship of Egypt is unstable, it has no popular support, no support of its own enlisted ranks, massive support from its Officer's rank, but that is all. The NCO ranks leaning to the enlisted ranks. That the Moslem Brotherhood is all in jail is the only thing keeping this government in power. If the Moslem Brotherhood gets its chance to take charge again, this government can not stand for it can NOT rely on its enlisted ranks to obey orders to shoot fellow Egyptians.
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)Is anyone really surprised that Palestinians would fight back after decades of being treated like second-class citizens, being pushed off their own land, having their homes bulldozed, and being subjected to constant heavy-handed reprisals?
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Or they agree to live out their lives as homeless refugees, huddled together within sight of lands their grandfathers and great grandfathers owned, lands that they rightfully see as their inheritance.
KinMd
(966 posts)So if they can't live with that fact, keep on sending rockets into Israel and live with the consequences
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)"Cause the loser now Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changing"
Never offer an "it will never happen" bet. History loves to make fools out of those who do.
