Europe leaders warn Russia to get crash zone open

[DonViejo]

Source: ASSOCIATED PRESS

SUNDAY, JUL 20, 2014 08:45 AM EDT

PARIS (AP) — The leaders of France, Germany and Britain are telling Russia’s Vladimir Putin to ensure that separatists in Ukraine give full access to investigators at the Malaysian plane crash site or risk the ire of Europe.

French President Francois Hollande, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and British Prime Minister David Cameron agreed on Sunday to demand that Putin force separatists controlling the site to “finally allow rescuers and investigators to have free and total access to the zone.”

A statement from Hollande’s office said that if Russia fails “to immediately take the needed measures, consequence will be drawn” at an EU foreign ministers meeting Tuesday.

Armed rebels have denied emergency workers full access and are now removing bodies from the crash site.

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Read more: http://www.salon.com/2014/07/20/europe_leaders_warn_russia_to_get_crash_zone_open/

[Stainless]

1. When has Russia ever complied with any Western demand?

Russians are known for belligerent, obnoxious and untrustworthy behavior. They will never acknowledge or accept their responsibility for this act of terror. Just like the U.S.A. will never accept responsibility for the Arab/Israel mess. Neither side wants to release the dogs of war over the deaths of a few hundred innocent civilians. The situation will simmer and fester and eventually heal. This theater of the absurd will go on.

[happyslug]

23. They have complied with the West demand to end all executions, unlike the US

Putin has come out to say that the moratorium on executions in his country will continue. Thus he had complied with Western Demands, just one that is ignored by the US.

[Fred Sanders]

2. More worthless demands, is Putin the supreme leader of the rebels as well as chief arms

supplier, father mother and mentor? Is is possible people can find arms themselves within the nation of Ukraine, within the controlled areas?

And OMG the rebels are removing the rotting bodies from the site...and...gasp....transporting them....somewhere! Outrageous, how dare they?

Give your heads a shake, people, it is not always black and white, my tribe or your tribe, with Putin or against America, that is childish thinking, a lot of it around.

[IronGate]

3. So seyethe another Putin apologist. nt.

[Fred Sanders]

4. Another tribal thinker. Simplicity is best, I get it, for some.

[IronGate]

5. No, another thinker who recognizes the overwhelming evidence.

Unlike you, who, for some reason, refuses to admit the truth that these pro Russian fascist rebels shot down that aircraft and apologizes for Pootie Poot every chance you get.

[Fred Sanders]

7. I have the same position as President Obama, let the investigators in and decide, wait for

all the evidence even as it appears the rebels fired the missile,....now go and set your hair on fire again, it is what some do best.

Sentence first, verdict later, it is the common internet rule of lawless.

Armchair juries are as good as armchair surgeons, not very, and the verdict is always the same, instantly.....do you not see it that way, internet evidence is not evidence, it is speculation....like ISIS
"evidence" breathlessly reported in the media, hundreds of millions of dollars stolen....turns out not to be true, but I get it, people need to know and need it NOW.

[IronGate]

8. Uhh, no, you haven't. nt.

[Kaleva]

28. Obama says the burden is on Russia to insist the rebels cooperate with the investigation

Do you have the same position as President Obama?

[Fred Sanders]

29. Yes, obviously, Ukraine is on the border with Russia, not America, so of course. And they speak the

same language and shared history, that always defines the burden.

[Kaleva]

30. President Obama also says that the seperaists are being backed by Russia

“Russia has urged them on. Russia has trained them. We know that Russia has armed them with military equipment and weapons including anti-aircraft weapons. Given its direct influence over the separatists, Russia — and President Putin in particular — has a direct responsibility to compel them to cooperate with the investigation,” Obama said.

http://news.yahoo.com/obama--pro-russia-separatists-stealing-malaysia-airlines-crash-evidence-155449925.html

[Igel]

9. All Putin would have to do is say a few simple words.

"Comrades, I've put trusted military folk at the border crossings. Nothing will cross into Ukraine from the Russian side of the border, officially or unofficially, until the crash scene is secured and the investigators are allowed full and free access."

Because the night after MH17 was crashed, tanks and Grads rolled from Russia into rebel-held territory.

And the following night.

And the following night.

Rebels need the Grads, the truckoads of ammo and men, the APCs, the tanks to continue to fight.

For Putin, right now at the very least the insurgency is more important than the victims' families. He's lied so far about it and his folk have done everybody possible to blur the truth, making sure that those who want to believe in Russia's rightness can and those who believe Russia's wrong on this can't prove it beyond all doubt, and sometimes can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. Putin counts on the West upholding many of the values that Putin despises, and he's good at manipulating people within their constraints.

[happyslug]

27. Do you know ANYTHING about the border of Russia and the Ukraine?

It is like the border between Ohio and Indiana, one farm up against another, maybe with a fence in between. The area is NOT a river, mountain range or even desert. People on foot, horse, or vehicle can cross almost anywhere on that border, for it is all flat. Thus it is HARD to stop anything moving between the two countries.

Worse, everything you mention can cross that border anywhere on that border. Worse, Russia is NOT the centralized power it was under the Soviet Union, you have a lot more people with the ability to sell, give or bargain away a lot of military equipment. Thus Putin may NOT be able to stop such shipments, even if he wanted to.

That is just the nature of that border and one of the reasons, while the US Radar systems can detect where the Missile was fired from, the US can NOT determine where the actual Missile system came from. Was it from Russia? Was it a Ukrainian Missile, that the Rebels were able to capture? Given the nature of the Ukrainian Army, I have my doubt if the Regular Ukrainian Army is intact. Within a week of the coup you have Video of PARATROOPERS defecting with their Airborne APCs to the rebels. Since that time I have NOT seen video of Rebels armored vehicles, which implies they are keeping them under cover for everyone knows they have them (No one is claiming the rebels have no tanks or APCs).

Spare parts should be a factor, but some of the Weapons the Russian are accused of turning over to the Rebels had been made in the Ukraine before the break up of the Soviet Union. This area of the Ukraine also has the most trade with Russia, as oppose to the Western Ukraine that tends to ship goods to the West.

As to the crash site, Putin will make sure it is open to the international Community, more to show he has no control over the rebels than anything else. Putin wants to show he can ask the rebels to open up the crash site, thus showing the world that he, Putin, have influence with the Rebels, but Putin will also make sure it is the Rebels who open up the crash site, to show that Putin is NOT in charge of the Rebels.

Thus I see Putin doing things to show he is reasonable, and after a few weeks even Putin will agree it was Ukrainian Rebels who shot down this plane, but by then this will be forgotten for no one will be able to show Putin or Russia was involved.

[Fred Sanders]

31. Securing borders against determined people is difficult, America should know, is Russia going to put

up a thousand mile long fence and patrol it?

People are so geographically illiterate it is painful.

[davidpdx]

13. The point is they are either accidentally or purposely destroying evidence

as well as not letting investigators in. Also since they are taking it upon themselves to remove bodies, they will be responsible for the bodies that are missing.

[Cha]

22. Sorry, but your lame attempts to protect putin from his responsibilities are Pathetic, Fred.

[Schema Thing]

6. "crash"? It's not a crashed airplane, it's a downed airplane.

[freshwest]

10. They keep referring it to that way to diminish the act.

[freshwest]

11. And if Russia doesn't, what? They'll do nothing. There's nothing they can do.

Pretty soon all the remains will be destroyed along with any property or proof of anything. This is a deed that was done and now is over with so their demands are only to give a show of 'doing something.'

I know that sounds harsh, but that is how this will play out. The world is now getting used to what the coming years will bring in lieu of global warfare that costs a lot more.

It's not good, but it appears to be more palatable to people than it once was. We may never have a conflict that crosses many borders or employs WMD and huge armed forces by nation states.

This is the alternative in a more peaceful world, even though it will not be peaceful for smaller numbers of people effected. It's not necessarily going to be peace, justice or stability as people devolve into small groups, like cults, some of them.

But there won't be a WW3.

[geek tragedy]

12. EU sanctions would be the next step.

And not "create tension in your markets" sanctions. More like "send your economy into a decade-long depression" sanctions,

[freshwest]

15. I've read some reports that sanctions hurt Russia; but only those connected to the EU.

Russia has its warm water port again and it can get around this. Its trading partners don't give a flying eff about the EU and sanctions. There is more than one world economy.

Not saying the EU won't try to make Russia turn course with more sanctions, I just can't see them to be as powerful as some might think.

Not saying it's not the right thing to do, but I suspect Russia has experience being isolated and will do fine no matter what. Well, at least the oligarchs and well connected will be fine. The rest, IDK.

[geek tragedy]

18. It already had a warm-water port.

Hundreds of dead EU citizens is a game changer.

[roamer65]

14. Europe as usual will be all "bark" and no "bite".

They can't afford to have Russian natural gas cutoff.

[BillZBubb]

26. I would bet you have the correct prediction.

The Europeans don't even bark, they yap. Then they roll over.

[Uncle Joe]

16. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, DonViejo.

[RedFury]

17. US exceptionalism

...when you invade and kill for no logical (known) reason, it is somehow justified -- but never when another nation does.

Russia depend on thier CXrimean seaport for many a reason. So, when asked they executed a military manuever the US ould only fantazise about.

Jealosy comes to the forefront and Putin becomes America's anti-god.

Meanwhile, anything they do or don't becomes further fodder for America's rage. Not going to work. The US's crdibility is prectically non-existent.

Going to war in Russia in their territory would cure a lot of hot-heads. But why would so many people have to die to what is plain to see?

[Amonester]

20. When you make a mistake, as small as it could be...

do you fess up for it and ask for forgiveness or do you try to cover up and deny you made it like babies often do?

[Cha]

24. Bush and Cheney's fucking Fuckup in Iraq has nothing to do with this.. we were all against it. This

is PUTIN's FUCKUP and he will be held responsible whether he or his minions like it or not.

[quadrature]

19. how long till Putin is rehabilitated?

Obama will host Putin
at the Palm-Springs place when?

September is my guess

[Cha]

25. Cool story bro.

[Cha]

21. Anti-Putin Protest in NYC..

Myroslava Petsa @myroslavapetsa
Follow
Anti-#Putin protest in NYC
1:53 PM - 20 Jul 2014 46 Retweets 15 favorites

jasonbellini ✔ @jasonbellini
Follow
Mother of #MH17 victims: "Mr. Putin, send my children home."
http://on.wsj.com/Uliegm

TOD