Russian and Ukraine troops battle in south, prompting fears that invasion has begun
Source: Washington Post
By Annie Gowen and Karoun Demirjian August 28 at 4:08 AM
KIEV, Ukraine — Fighting between Russian troops and the Ukrainian military worsened early Thursday, prompting fears in Ukraine that a Russian invasion of their territory has begun.
Ukrainian troops are continuing to battle combined Russian and separatist forces on a new, southern front around the border town of Novoazovsk, east of Crimea on the Sea of Azov. In addition, a military spokesman said Russian troops are increasing surveillance from northern Crimea, the autonomous Ukrainian peninsula annexed by Moscow in March.
As firefights and shelling continued all day Wednesday and into the night, there were differing reports on whether Novoazovsk, a previously quiet border town, had fallen to Russian-backed separatists. Russian troops and their allies do control villages north of there, according to military spokesman Andriy Lysenko said.
Referring to a “Russian-directed counteroffensive,” State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said Wednesday, “Clearly, that is of deep concern to us, but we’re also concerned by the Russian government’s unwillingness to tell the truth, even as its soldiers are found 30 miles inside Ukraine.”
Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/russian-and-ukraine-troops-battle-in-south-prompting-fears-of-widescale-invasion/2014/08/28/04b614f4-9a6e-40f4-aa21-4f49104cf0e4_story.html?hpid=z1
Begun? The invasion has been going on for weeks now! (And I'm not even including Crimea.)
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DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Now NATO is explicitly getting called to set up bases to defend countries against a russian invasion.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)Which in the past 5 years has been considered obsolete.
Not anymore.
Ukraine was really the last significant bordering state of Russia (other than Georgia which is never joining NATO) that NATO could take in.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)So you actually admit that NATO has essentially surrounded Russia and then you say that it was the reaction to the threat of NATO moving into Ukraine that caused Russia to cause NATO to go into Ukraine???
Think about what you just said?
Do you really think that not leaving a buffer is good for either country? I don't know how old you are, but one of the reasons the world did not get annihilated in a Nuclear meltdown during the cold war was because there was time to react and assess. Why in the world is it even in our interests to place everything with a hair trigger and to reduce diplomacy to minimum levels? It is arrogant stupidity, the disease RWs have.
This is not all that different from the way Reagan thought. Reagan essentially constantly made the Russians afraid that we may press the nuclear button. We talked loud and aggressive. Reagan took incredible unwise chances and was actually shocked to realize that the world almost blew up due to a signal cross. Reagan softened his rhetoric after that come to Jesus moment (that playing god might actually backfire).
Showdown at noon may look good in the movies, but the "good guy" does not always live.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Ok:
The only NATO-members bordering Russia are Estonia and Latvia.
Finland is not member, but cooperates with NATO.
Georgia wanted to become member, but NATO said No, as not to piss off Russia.
Back under President Yulia Timoshenko, she tried to make Ukraine join NATO as fast as possible.
But that doesn't mean that NATO suddenly amasses troops at the russian border.
Russia is free to make its own offers to other countries, to build up its own alliances. What REALLY pisses off Putin is that he still regards the neighbouring countries like vassals to Russia's empire, like the US did with South America during the Cold War. There is a famous quote that goes approximately like this: "With Ukraine, Russia is an empire, without Ukraine, Russia is a country."
NATO is no military threat to Russia, because NATO's members don't have the stomach to fight an enemy of equal power. NATO however is an ideological threat to Russia, because it reduces Russia from being the bestest nation in the world, the bulwark of Christianity and morality, an empire surrounded by admiring friends, to just one more country.
What does Russia have to be proud of? Does it have great artists, great technology, great social freedoms? All Russia has is its past and its military. And NATO is a threat to those delusions of grandeur.
amandabeech
(9,893 posts)Belarus and Finland are not.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)
Good to see your post, Amanda.
amandabeech
(9,893 posts)Every so often I just want to go BERZERK!!!
Man from Pickens
(1,713 posts)I'm American, I don't know what those are. Is that when you get the crap beat out of you by a cop and the dashcam video mysteriously disappears?
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)Now no one wants NATO to go anywhere. That's the difference.
EX500rider
(10,847 posts)Lets see, no NATO to the North, East or South....so no, definitely not "surrounded".
freshwest
(53,661 posts)
EX500rider
(10,847 posts)
freshwest
(53,661 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Not the people now suffering the consequences of NATO's actions in Libya, certainly. But I guess that's old news, even to you with your daily reports on the "Libyan revolution." How come you're not doing that for Hifter and the Brotherhood types? Did this history end in 2011?
Exactly no one "in the past 5 years" has credibly advanced the absurd thesis that NATO is obsolete. (Has there been talk of disbanding it? Like from whom? Go back to 199x or even 195x, you'll always find "talk of disbanding it."
It's also incredible how reliably you'll decide that any NATO or US-UK violence is R2P, at least as long as the party labels on the chief execs ordering the strikes are acceptable. But Russian support for the Ukrainian Russians who are under attack from Kiev can only be a long-planned imperialist intervention.
Poroshenko had his chance not to escalate the civil war that Yatsenyuk initiated. He blew it, and now the propaganda about Kiev's victories has been exposed. They're losing, which isn't a very surprising performance in the majority Russian regions for a Ukrainian ethno-nationalist neoliberal regime that's in power because of a coup d'etat and that includes Bandera fascists in its cabinet. And you really think the Russians in Ukraine aren't going to turn to Russia for help, and Russians won't respond whether or not it's official Moscow policy?
Kiev's insane endgame has been to try to bring NATO in, and fuck the risk of World War III. He doesn't seem to think it's obsolete either. But maybe it will prove to be. By the way, has Obama deployed drones and special forces to kill all the MH17 shooters yet, like you predicted?
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)Inside NATO, the officials busying about in military green and bespoke blue speak only of the future … “NATO is as relevant as ever,” says its cobalt-eyed Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen. “NATO is the strongest, most successful military alliance in the world. And now, faced with new security challenges, we have adapted.”
http://world.time.com/2012/05/23/after-chicago-how-long-can-nato-stay-relevant/
That being said, R2P was what the United Nations deems actions, and Russia does not have any UN resolution authorizing their invasion of Ukraine. If Ukraine was really losing the war against the rebels the rebels wouldn't need Russia's help. Russia is just prolonging the inevitable.
Any future NATO expansion in Ukraine would be decades away.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Me: Exactly no one "in the past 5 years" has credibly advanced the absurd thesis that NATO is obsolete. (Has there been talk of disbanding it? Like from whom? Go back to 199x or even 195x, you'll always find "talk of disbanding it."
You: But there was some blah-blah in TIME that mentioned unspecified "critics" and called it "a drab relic."
Me: (Feeling stupid because this is the level of response that I'm supposed to dignify.)
You: "If Ukraine was really losing the war against the rebels the rebels wouldn't need Russia's help."
Try that logic with blanks:
"If ___1___ was really losing the war against the ___2___, the latter wouldn't need ___3's___ help."
This meaningless generality might be applied to many different conflicts involving great-power interventions or arms or volunteers crossing borders. See how many you can list.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)NATO was increasingly denigrated after Libya, because it was really France and other countries being involved. The US was involved, in military operations, for some 20 something days. People criticized the US's involvement in NATO affairs after that point, because it was as if, under Obama, NATO was taking a backseat role.
But that's going to change, as you'll see soon, with regards to Ukraine, because there will be involvement with NATO countries in Ukraine. If Russia thinks it can take eastern Ukraine without a fight, it will be sorely proven wrong. EU is tired, absolutely tired of Russian hegemony. The US hasn't been meddling that much in the EU (why would it need to). Russia's meddling is causing EU countries to be concerned, so under the guise of NATO they will become involved in Ukraine.
We can only hope it doesn't lead to WWIII. It probably won't. But a lot of Russian servicemen are going to die for a lost cause. And we won't acknowledge NATO/CIA involvement for years, if decades. But it's about to happen. Whole convoy's of Russian fighters, obliterated. Russia won't say crap about it because it doesn't want to admit its invasion. The US will keep it secret, because it's higher ops. The west cannot and will not allow fascist Russia to win this one. Anti-gay, anti-protest, anti-speech, rigged governments cannot stand. And they will not stand. Russia is screwed.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Here is what I said:
Exactly no one "in the past 5 years" has credibly advanced...
The laughable throw-away sentences from the laughable TIME mag do not qualify as a credible advancement of the inherently absurd thesis.
I realize that adverbs and conditions may be difficult to grasp, but nevertheless ask that you correct your misrepresentation of my words.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)You just move the goalposts. Nice try but no cigar.
There are dozens of other reports about the Chicago Summit and its questioning NATOs role but you know what? Your abusive and dismissive attitude toward me? I won't even bother to post the goddamn Google search query.
You are simply wrong and Russia's imperialist efforts as of late have invigorated NATO and made it relevant again. I laugh at Russia for its failure to do squat to stop NATO. All Russia had to do was wait, but no, in its impertinence it decided to invade, occupy, and annex another country.
And that made NATO relevant again.
Have fun with your toxic attitude, I ain't falling for it. Not with DUers leaving this site over similar abuse.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Especially since it so reliably works to support whatever atrocity the CIA-State Department is committing on behalf of "humanity."
By comparison, your little hissyfit is a trifle.
Where's your daily update on the Libyan revolution, by the way? Don't the shifting fronts between Hifter and the Brotherhood and all the other liberation warlords count anymore? It was so beautiful, how the NATO bombers for whom you cheerleaded saved the people there and gave them democracy and a liberal state.
Oh, sorry, the totally irrelevant NATO. It's not that they looked for an opening to expand their operations to the east and got it by backing a coup in Ukraine, oh no, it was that mean old Putin coming up with a suicidal Hitler plan right in the middle of all his deals with the EU and BRICs. Because he really wanted to acquire some run-down Ukrainian rust belt as lebensraum, at the cost of the entire global game he's been playing for 15 years.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)In fact, Libya was what led to the Chicago summit questioning the need for NATO. I remember what happened and Putin just made NATO relevant again with his imperialism. Thanks Putin.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)to some minor quibble of labeling or semantics, insisting that your misquote was correct 10 messages on, and ignore everything big-picture when it doesn't suit you. (And how can it?)
So what about that wonderful NATO intervention in 2011? Where are your daily updates of the Libyan revolution today?
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)DUers are leaving this site because of attitudes like yours. Fortunately I have a thick skin and I have dealt with public libel and slander for years. The lawsuits would flow if I didn't. I mean, unlike most cowards following Putin's fascist incursions into Ukraine (my favorite who is creaming themselves over the death of civilians), I post under my name.
I lost friends in the Libyan conflict, people I knew, talked to, and of course, every now and again a toxic attitude is expressed about my "daily updates" and support for real people, people who died, were murdered, all because not a damn person cared here about it. I also got legitimate death threats and lost many months of sleep.
I would do daily updates about Ukraine, and Putin's imperialism, but, again, not worth it. I posted a few posts about Kiev's uprising, but then, it was outnumbered by 20 to 1 by fascist supporting lies about Nazi's and crap. I mean, on May Day real Nazi's marched in Moscow but were banned in Kiev and the Orwellian doublespeak rears its ugly head.
I made no misquote. NATO was being questioned at the Chicago Summit. It really was nearing an existential crisis. Putin's actions have proven to at least the NATO states that there still is a need for NATO and that Russia's imperialist nature is still alive and well. When Russia chopped up the Baltic states due to its agreement with Hitler everyone sat back and let it happened. NATO exists solely to keep that from happening again.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)DUers are leaving in droves because of me! What have I done?!
In fact, I apparently am co-responsible for murdered people in Libya, or at any rate they were murdered "all because not a damn person cared here about it."
Pretty radical stuff!
The blah-blah about disbanding NATO has been a near-constant of its history. The NATO powers have never been serious about any of that. It's a show to make them look thoughtful and make it appear that outcomes are not predetermined by their hardwired geopolitical logic. They demonstrated that very clearly after 1989, when it was truly high time to disband NATO. Instead they expanded it and, for the first time, found ways to employ it as a vehicle for out-of-area wars completely unrelated to the supposed defensive mission of the alliance. The decision by the old, old imperialist powers, US-UK especially, to forego the historic opportunity for global peace and to instead pursue new threats and warlike actions put a lie to the globalizing rhetoric and produced a reaction in a Russia that initially was thrilled to be a junior partner to the West - before shock therapy and Iraq and all the rest.
Anyway, when NATO or CIA-State put out a press release, they've at least got one person who will read it at face value in you. I enjoy your opinions, as a barometer, and sometimes I genuinely respect your work, when you gather and present a great deal of detail.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)Given how Russia is behaving.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Phew! Mission accomplished!
Or I guess the hilarity comes from people being completely unconscious about it even after it's happened.
Kind of like how the Republicans don't see that ISIS is the direct, predictable result of the US-UK war of aggression in Iraq.
Moscow's committed some big atrocities - Chechnya comes to mind. The biggest international crimes by far have belonged to US-UK, however. After the war of aggression in 2003, nothing in the behavior of the lesser great powers should come as a surprise. The tone was set by the indispensable nation, the lone superpower, the one that had the opportunity to lead the world to peace and chose to gear up for new wars, and to pretend it gets to dictate policy to everyone else no matter how incredibly hypocritical. Everything "humanitarian" always happens to advance some U.S. geopolitical or corporate interest.
mazzarro
(3,450 posts)Where are all these coming from? Have you become a top NATO official privy to the discussions going on in the high reaches of the organization?
newthinking
(3,982 posts)This propaganda war must be very confusing for folks who are not researching past the mainstream media....
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)and roll in in division strength.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Every day, the Hitler-like Russia launches a completely unprovoked invasion for the purpose of eventually occupying everything up to Gibraltar, as per a master plan. It's vital that NATO take Kiev as a member right away and deploy forces (openly) against the subhuman terrorists!!!
Or at any rate, that's the daily line from Yatsenyuk and the chocolate king.
Cha
(297,220 posts)newthinking
(3,982 posts)doesn't sound real funny to me?
Having said that... with the propaganda war going on we don't even know for sure that this is a direct confrontation. The rebels had major victories that were not covered in our media and easily could have gained significant tanks and other artillery from those.
But I do tend to believe this feels like it could be an escalation.
LloydS of New London
(355 posts)Apropos, since the Russians have a history of creating crashed airliners.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)Kiev has accused the servicemen of conducting a "special mission" in support of a separatist pro-Russian insurgency in its eastern regions. Moscow denies the charge, saying the troops had strayed across the border by mistake.
Nine of the 10 captured soldiers told a news conference in Kiev they had received very little information before setting off on their patrol and that they had no previous combat experience. The 10th soldier was wounded and is now in hospital.
"We are not informed at all ... We either got lost or not, we were sent there, we didn't know the way or where we were going," said serviceman Ivan Romantsev, the self-appointed leader of the group.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/27/us-ukraine-crisis-paratroopers-idUSKBN0GR1KF20140827
Igel
(35,308 posts)Did your "idiot squad leader" have you engage in a 2-3 hour fire fight using live ammo before "surrendering"?
Did they accidentally go into a city with armored vehicles, fighting the national guard there, before claiming to have seized it and set up checkpoints?
No?
The commanders knew what they were doing. It was the soldiers who were told to shoot to kill and did so who are the idiots. Or just scared and/or feeling betrayed. Makes you wonder why Putin was getting good control over a lot of media and blogger sources in the last few months. Oh. Wait. No, it really doesn't make me wonder ... at least not at Putin.
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)happyslug
(14,779 posts)Last edited Thu Aug 28, 2014, 10:47 AM - Edit history (1)
n/t
VanGoghRocks
(621 posts)happyslug
(14,779 posts)What a soldier can carry is restricted by something called "The laws of physics", basically you can carry up to 50 pounds into combat, anything more your combat effectiveness drops drastically. Given your clothes weigh about 10 pounds and your boots about 8 pounds your rife 10 pounds, your entrenching tool about 2 pounds, you up to 30 pounds before you know it. Your helmet weigh about two pounds, and your canteen another three pounds (if you include the water in the Canteen). First aid kit weigh around one pound thus you have about 14 pounds left over for ammunition.
Basic Combat load of ammunition is around 600 rounds (Most troops carry LESS, but that is 20 30 round magazines). That comes to only 15 minutes of shooting in semiautomatic mode (40 rounds minutes for 15 minutes). No commander ever wants to run out of ammunition so in most combat situation you plan for a firefight of about 20 minutes (This is compatible with modern air support, since Vietnam US and other armies have worked in combat environments where Air Support can arrived within 20 minutes).
Thus modern combat is generally under 20 minutes, you either get artillery support, Air support, fresh troops OR you run out of ammunition within that time frame. Thus there is "NO COMBAT for 2-3 hours" and thus where did you get that report?
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)Most of UA forces are pinned down without outside support. Lengthy firefights, of sporadic light arms contact, are common. Think guys moving from street to street with machine guns.
Your presumption is that UA forces would lay down heavy fire for 20 minutes and call in airstrikes. I think that view is ignorant of UA's ability. Most planes are downed or in disrepair, they don't have the kind of control over the air as the US does in Afghanistan or had in Iraq.
There is no airstrike or artillery support to be expected. So you fight on, with small arms, sporadic fighting, for hours on end. And yes, in those hours, maybe only a clip or two are exchanged, because it's in and out, off and on. You don't have to expect an entire contingent of ammo to be expelled in that time.
I can't find the specific report mentioned but it reflects the livejournal reports I've seen in the past on the Ukraine side. Lots of fighters with small arms for the most part busting their asses to crack the invading forces. In a twist of perhaps a bit of irony, Ukraine's forces are employing guerrilla tactics more so than the "rebels" / Russian invaders. This will be the rebels' downfall in the end. One sniper in particular has credited himself with hundreds of kills. If true, that'd really hurt the invaders' efforts.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)In simple terms, there is no way a squad size unit could stay in a firefight for 2-3 hours. They will run out of ammunition in about 20 minutes. I mention the other 20 minutes more to show that 20 minutes is about how far ANYONE can do combat today. Thus a fire fight for 2-3 hours just do NOT happen without replacement of troops and constant replenishment of ammunition. You do NOT have the men involved (12 men) to sustain a 2-3 hour fire fight. They will run out of ammunition within 20 minutes of combat.
Given only 12 soldiers were involved that supports a movement of a squad of infantry that got lost. The rest of the Infantry company stayed on the Russian side of the Border. That squad would have artillery, mortar, machine gun support and air support, all within 20 minutes of opening fire in support UNLESS it was denied because the company as a whole had strict orders NOT to cross the border. Thus without that support that squad of 12 men could NOT survive any fire fight over 20 minutes. Thus the 12 men squad would would run out of ammunition within about 20 minutes, thus that 12 men squad could NOT fight for 2-3 hours, not that the Ukrainian Army could not.
If this was a move by Russia, that squad would have been supported by RUSSIAN Support units and would have been able to return to Russia for other squads of that Company would have been sent to relieve that squad as it ran out of ammunition.
Just a comment that the 20 minute restriction is a restriction is the ability of the 12 man RUSSIAN SQUAD not the Ukrainian Army.
And like the soldiers' accounts, they thought they were heading one way while their commanders were taking them someplace else.
Opinion polls reflect this in weird sort of way, but only in a weird way. Russians are against military involvement, sending troops, weapons, etc. But support Putin whole heartedly. The gap is in knowledge: They believe there are no Russian troops or weapons in Ukraine, so supporting "Putin's policy" to a Russian means supporting words and "humanitarian convoys" that only hold food, water, civilian clothing and bedding.
Hosnon
(7,800 posts)The Russian military uses Apple Maps.
ba dum tss
Cha
(297,220 posts)
Tarheel_Dem
(31,234 posts) 
Bosonic
(3,746 posts)A pro-Russian rebel leader in eastern Ukraine has said 3-4,000 Russian citizens are fighting in their ranks.
Alexander Zakharchenko told Russian TV many of the Russians were former servicepeople or current personnel on leave.
He was speaking as rebels captured the town of Novoazovsk and threatened to take the city of Mariupol, after opening a new front in the south-east.
Reports say they are advancing on the city, a key port on the Sea of Azov.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28963310
On leave? Just borrowing tanks no doubt...
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)been happening for quite sometime. The next thing to look for is a new front coming from occupied Crimea. It is interesting the for months the Russians have been holding "exercises" near the Ukrainian border and now an invasion happens where no pro-Russian troops have been coming from the Russian border. I figure the Russians will attack from both sides opening a land bridge and also claiming off shore oil rights and then offer Ukraine some kind of cease fire and peace talks.
RT sure got all quiet all of the sudden as well as some of the resident Putin lovers.
Cha
(297,220 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)It lives.......
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)The "occupiers" in this case would be 90-97 percent of the region's residents going back long before 2014? Or were you thinking "occupants"? Then yeah, they occupy it.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)the ones that ethnically cleansed that area of Ukraine
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Even if your history were uncontestable, 95% or more of the ethnic Russians in Crimea were born after any ethnic cleansing. Should they be deported for the historic sins of the long-dead? This kind of thinking keeps refreshing a lot of pointless ethnic bloodshed, in the Balkans, in the Middle East, hell in Thailand. (By the way, do you live on land that was ethnically cleansed of its Indian peoples?)
Fact is, people living today need to get over their imagined affiliations with imagined forerunners, and learn to live with each other. Today.
Bosonic
(3,746 posts)Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has cancelled a visit to Turkey, citing "Russian troop deployments" in the east of the country.
Mr Poroshenko said his place was in Kiev in view of a sharp deterioration in the situation in Donetsk region.
His announcement came as pro-Russian rebels captured the seaside town of Novoazovsk and threatened to take the strategic port city of Mariupol.
The rebel successes constitute the opening of a new front in the conflict.
Mr Poroshenko said he was calling a meeting of the Ukrainian security council.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28967526
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)I have to disagree with the BBC on this
It should be the "Russian invasion opens a new front"
truth2power
(8,219 posts)"Zero Proof" - The "Russian Invasion" Of Ukraine
Updated below
Update
This is a quite amazing "information operation" without doubt of U.S. origin.
Consider: The Ukrainian President talks about Russian affiliated insurgents in east-Ukraine and Reuters and others distribute this as "invasion". After all major news-entities repeated the "invasion" claim and the public damage is done they simply take it back.
Consider this from Tagesschau, the highest rated German TV news show:
Translation:
On #Ukraine there was a translation error by the agency Reuters: According to the correction Poroshenko did not talk of an invasion.
So there was an "invasion", distributed by major news agencies, which then turns out to have been a translation error or an intentional Poroshenko 'screw up'.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)This is Reuters as of five minutes ago:
Ukraine's president said on Thursday that Russian troops had entered his country in support of pro-Moscow rebels who captured a key coastal town, sharply escalating a separatist war and prompting anger and alarm among Kiev's Western allies.
U.S. and British officials took strong issue with Russia's denials it had sent combat forces into Ukraine and threatened to impose stiffer economic sanctions on Moscow. But U.S. President Barack Obama stopped short of calling Russia's actions an invasion.
Earlier, Poroshenko said he had canceled a visit to Turkey because of the "rapidly deteriorating situation" in the eastern Donetsk region, "as Russian troops have actually been brought into Ukraine".
London's ambassador to the United Nations, Mark Lyall Grant, told a Security Council meeting: "Units of the armed forces of the Russian federation are now directly engaged in fighting inside Ukraine against the armed forces of Ukraine."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/28/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSKBN0GS10C20140828
That a particular magic word was or was not used in a politician's comment does not alter the fact that Russian troops are engaged in combat in Ukraine with elements of Ukraine's armed forces.
truth2power
(8,219 posts)Those who are sick and tired of the bloviating propaganda of the US Government (overall, I might add, not just regarding Ukraine) will avail themselves of the credible information that's out there. It's not difficult to find, for the cognitively astute.
Those whose interests lie in supporting the Empire in all things, will, likewise, continue the task they're assigned.
Carry on.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)It is simply a fact that Russia is now sending formed units of Russian soldiery, with their equipment, into Ukraine. You are free to whinge that this is not 'an invasion' because Russia could surely move several divisions under air cover into Ukraine, rather than something which seems in total about the equivalent of a brigade at present. But that does not mean it is not an act of the Russian government, not a deployment of Russian soldiers and equipment under Russian orders into combat with Ukraine's armed forces. The paper-work does not impress me, and it does not alter the essence of the matter. Russia is waging a war against Ukraine, a low intensity war, but a war all the same, and its purpose in waging this is the seizure of territory from a neighboring state --- in short, an act of imperialist aggression. It is intended to pay, with full control of oil and gas in the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov which otherwise would benefit Ukraine, and it is viewed as the first essential step to reconstituting the old Russian land empire, or at least as much of this as can practicably be snarfled up in the present day.
Russia has as much right to try this as anyone else has to employ violence for their own aggrandizement, certainly. The problem I have, and a number of other people have as well, is with people who pretend that Russia is not engaged in imperialist aggression, who couch defense of Russia's aggression in Ukraine in terms of resistance to aggression against Russia, and who give every evidence of believing the shabbiest and most threadbare of lies Russia tells about its actions and purposes, all the while insisting everyone who disagrees is duped by propaganda. I could have some respect for someone who made a case on straight realpolitik grounds, and stated straight out their preferred outcome was that Russia achieve its goals, take as much of Ukraine as it thought best for its interests, and reconstituted its old empire. I could respect someone who viewed the thing as a clash between two imperialisms over who would have the sole exploitation of Ukraine, and preferred it to be Russia who became sole exploiter of Ukraine. But I cannot have the slightest respect for the sort of cant which makes up the overwhelming bulk of the commentary made in support of Russian imperialism here.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Only America seeks empire, no one else ever has.
All of their causes are just and ours are ignoble. I reject that because it's not logical nor is it proven in history.
Thanks for the reality check. It will be dismissed, though, as it's not doctrinaire.
reorg
(3,317 posts)Exclusive: Ukraine rebel commander acknowledges fighters had BUK missile (Reuters)
http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=853729
truth2power
(8,219 posts)Maybe it's just too early in the am.
reorg
(3,317 posts)nobody is talking about flight crashs anymore.
I was pointing out that Reuters has a history of "translation errors". Like the "invasion", they reported in July that a militia commander confirmed the DPR had Buks. Which, of course, never happened but the news had spread fast before Reuters explained it had been a "mistranslation".
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)The tale as told by Kiev is already well represented here. In an effort to achieve a little balance, let me offer what one of those other people has to say:
Only Russian volunteers fighting with anti-Kiev forces - Donetsk Republic leader
About 3-4,000 Russian citizens joined anti-government fighters during Kiev crackdown in Ukraine’s east, says the leader of Donetsk independent republic, noting that self-defense fighters have never concealed this.
"They [Russian volunteers] are among us, people of Donbass [Region, eastern Ukraine] because we are blood brothers,” said the Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the Donetsk People’s Republic, Aleksandr Zakharchenko, in an interview to Russian media.
. . .
Zakharchenko said that Kiev authorities and Western countries are repeatedly talking about a Russian ‘military invasion’ to justify the mass defeats of the Ukrainian army in the country’s east.
http://rt.com/news/183308-russian-volunteers-ukraine-fighting/
newthinking
(3,982 posts)others here are not aware of the facts.
If the progressive alternative websphere is any indication there are quite a few liberals who have researched and realize that there is more to what is happening than the narrative.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Seriously, I will start my morning with a much better attitude now.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I wonder if you'll admit you were wrong, or just find another reason why it's the West's fault.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Started bombing and shelling and killing civilian non-combatants in eastern Ukraine?
Kiev had options. A government with fascists in the cabinet chose to start a civil war against the Russian population. Now everyone's shocked, shocked that the Ukrainian Russians turned to Russia for support.
Whatever the Kiev line of the day is, it's reported as news.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)newthinking
(3,982 posts)Just a note: I have lived in Europe and been in Ukraine and in Russia. I have friends there and have always wished Ukraine to modernize and move toward Europe. So I am no blind Russia fan. I just know the people there and the countries and understand what really happened. I have been aware of our meddling since the "Orange Revolution", when I noticed that (former) President Yushenko was married to an American who worked in hard right "think tanks" , (you know, the kind we all hate here?). I have paid attention ever since..
Early 2000s I was approached by a Republican in Ukraine (Yes, the actual Republican Institute has been involved there for years) about work prospects with them (my acquaintance there did not know my politics were liberal). I was ignorant of what was going on there. But not after that.....
Russia is no ideal country, but this is all of our own making. We have embraced a foreign and economic policy of "end justifies the means" and have crossed many bounderies, created wars on lies, allied with really bad guys, taken down even democratic governments at a whim of our interest.
We are even now weakening the very important institutions of NGOs (The reason that Russia has restricted NGOs is because we were lying about what many were about and using them to spy and attempt to weaken the country. )
That is why now NGO's such as DRs without Borders are now in danger in many parts of the world. The terrible precident of immoral use of peacemaking and humanitarian institutions has been made into an art form and by doing this we weaken world peace. We should expect more from our government.
Russia is essentially the first country to put their hand up and say enough when our shadow institutions tried to compromise it.
It is a shame it was not a country a little more modernized that did this. But it eventually was going to happen.
truth2power
(8,219 posts)regarding the events in Ukraine has no relation to what's really going on there.
I believe you understand what happened, as do I, because I've been following it since the beginning, this past spring.
Your statement sums it up pretty well: "Russia is no ideal country, but this is all of our own making. We have embraced a foreign and economic policy of "end justifies the means" and have crossed many bounderies, created wars on lies, allied with really bad guys, taken down even democratic governments at a whim of our interest".
"...allied with really bad guys" - Would that be the neo-Nazi junta in Kiev whose hero was a Nazi collaborator during WWII? The US is even willing to support a bunch of Nazis if serves the "National interest". how pathetic.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)As I thought, it's all the West's fault. Forget that Putin has been actively bullying former Soviet states for years now. It's somehow all our fault. Gotcha.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,234 posts)As Russia troops and tanks make an apparent bid to open the land route to annexed Crimea, discontent is growing in the motherland about the obvious but oft-denied war in Ukraine.
MOSCOW, Russia – Where U.S. President Barack Obama and German Chancellor Angela Merkel have failed to make Russian President Vladimir Putin acknowledge his ever-more-overt invasion of Ukraine and think about pulling back, Valentina Melnikova, the head of Russia’s famous Soldiers’ Mothers Committee, might just have a chance.
Early Thursday morning, Melnikova started getting phone calls from Russian army bosses. All of them, from the deputy defense minister to the paratrooper division commanders, wanted to meet with the great matriarch of the Russian military. She had accused the entire high command, along with Commander-in-Chief Vladimir Putin of invading Ukraine and of committing a crime against Russian citizens by sending Russian soldiers to "the bloody battlefields" without declaring the war, without signing legal papers with the servicemen, without letting Russian mothers know where exactly their drafted sons ended up dying.
The day before, Russian servicemen were fighting shoulder to shoulder with pro-Russian separatists in Novoazovsk, a strategic port city on the Russian border. By taking over Novoazovsk, the separatists cleared the way for more servicemen to pour into Ukraine. “According to our expert analyses,” said Melnikova – and few organizations have better information than hers – “ there are over 10,000 Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine today."
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/28/russian-moms-denounce-putin-s-not-so-secret-ukraine-invasion.html#
The good news here is that even inside Russia's tightly controlled media environment, they seem to be waking up, and asking some very good questions. And let's be honest, the "alternative websphere" you speak of, doesn't handle reality very well.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)there are Russian citizen volunteers that organize.
Every male in Russia has served in the military. A 2 year (I believe( stint is required. So they have a lot of people who have had formal training. I suspect it is the volunteers that Kiev keeps saying are official Russian military.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,316 posts)Russian 'volunteers' who are getting killed 'while carrying out duties', getting medals, and whose wounding and death rates mean the Russian military hospitals in the area are 'overflowing'? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28949582
Your posts are jokes. Russia is sending troops and tanks into Ukraine. Just open your eyes.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)As was noted in an article I posted on GD recently:
Over the last two days, the self-defense forces say they have captured a lot of military hardware. This has reportedly helped them get 2 tank battalions, 3 multiple launcher rocket system batteries, 2 self-propelled howitzer batteries, 3 cannon battalions of various calibers and 8 mortar batteries. All the new subunits have joined the newly formed fighting force, the rebels said.
Three infantry brigades will be organized from the existing detachments of self-defense militia, the document reads. A new volunteer regiment has also been formed consisting of miners from the Donbass region and soldiers and officers from the Ukrainian army, who have opted to side with the People’s Republic of Donetsk.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025435869#post105
muriel_volestrangler
(101,316 posts)The point is that it's a model that the Ukrainian army doesn't have. Just the Russian army. Your posts continue to be jokes.
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)another_liberal
(8,821 posts)(sigh)
VanGoghRocks
(621 posts)Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)But there's always room for redemption. So while you're here, a couple of questions:
1. Would you admit there is in fact documentable evidence of pro-Russian demonstrators shooting at pro-Ukrainian demonstrators during the May 2nd riots in Odessa?
2. Would you admit you have no evidence that the Ukrainian military is summarily executing captured pro-Russian separatists?
You never answered those questions posed to you before. I'm giving you that chance again.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I cannot understand why so many here want to defend obvious Russian lies.
Even if you don'y approve of the Kyiv government, at least be honest and admit that the Russians are actively intervening. The evidence is becoming overwhelming.
VanGoghRocks
(621 posts)around gets mighty challenging.
No one argues that because the putschistas are relying upon western armaments and aid, that NATO or the U.S. have invaded (although a few instances of Western European fascists and neo-Nazis serving with the pustchistas have been well documented). Same goes here: the presence of Russian-made armaments is not evidence of Russian Federation involvement, save as grist for the propagandists' mills.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)Despite the fact that Russian combat troops and combat vehicles have crossed the border and are in active combat against Ukrainian forces?
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Russia has been denying that they are providing arms to the rebels. So if they have arms that only Russia normally has, what does that say?
Someone is pushing propaganda here.... have a look in the mirror.
VanGoghRocks
(621 posts)very carefully America's decline into well-deserved senescence, since its decadence and utter cruelty to its own citizens and citizens of the world notwithstanding, America still possesses a nuclear arsenal that can destroy all life on the planet many times over.
They're going head to head with that crackpot Russophobe Brzezinski and the fate of homo sapiens lies in the balance.
Is that what you mean by being 'in the tank for Putin'?
IronGate
(2,186 posts)
You seriously are in the tank for Russia and now China.
You want Russia and China to manage the decline of America?
You think America will start a nuclear war?
Are you thinking at all?
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)At best, Russia's relation to China in a firm alliance would approximate that of England to the United States. Russia is actually a fairly small country, in terms of population and economic heft. China's long-term goals include reclaiming the areas north of the Amur and across the Ussuri, taken by the Czars not so long ago. Economic dominion, and eventual colonization in the classic sense, is the Chinese plan for Siberia....
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)The Ukrainian government?
Give me a break, friend.
VanGoghRocks
(621 posts)Brzezinski-sourced NYTimes article = same difference.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,316 posts)It's the BBC, interviewing an analyst from the International Institute for Strategic Studies.
reorg
(3,317 posts)Last edited Fri Aug 29, 2014, 12:13 PM - Edit history (2)
Proof:
https://www.iiss.org/en/regions/ukraine/pro-russia-separatist-tank-variant-supports-russian-source-4c62
Video footage:
Oops, account deleted due to repeated copyright violations ...
On edit:
The original poster (to a VK account https://vk.com/video52833839_169580736) has uploaded the video now in HD:
complained about the Copyright violation and noted that the column passed through Sverdlovsk on 20 August.
The tank does look like the Russian model described.
http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/412267-war-in-ukraine-t-64-vs-t-72-an-hypothetical-fight/
Apparently the Russians have thousands of them, the majority in storage. Perhaps not a big problem to divert some and sell them for scrap in Ukraine.
candelista
(1,986 posts)I see it spelled "Whoops" a lot. But a whoop (and a holler) is different from an oop. 
reorg
(3,317 posts)it's only written differently: ups!
No whoop, here, though.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)You link to anti-Semite hate sites and then lambast someone else?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025435869#post71
Talk about hypocrisy, along with your buddy there.
truth2power
(8,219 posts)I've seen people who refuse to buy into the demonization of Putin labeled "pootlickers". Isn't that cute?
What that says to me is that someone is terrified that something other than the official narrative will gain traction. They're working too hard, I think.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Russian laws have insulted their life style, so they demand we fight a third World War to assuage their wounded pride.
I, for one, am not ready to get on that particular bandwagon.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)You seriously believe gay people are 'demanding we fight a third world war to assuage their wounded pride'?
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Do you think "gay people" are the ones who are pushing for hostilities?
If that is the case, they have a great deal of support from our Military/Industrial Complex, big energy corporations and (last but not least) the greedheads running Wall Street. There is, after all, a good deal to steal once Ukraine is under firm control.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)No one will fail to understand what your words mean:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014881926#post185
It is a personal hatred of Russia on the part of some . . .
Russian laws have insulted their life style, so they demand we fight a third World War to assuage their wounded pride.
I, for one, am not ready to get on that particular bandwagon.
A. L.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Don't try to tell me what I meant. You do not speak for me.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)People who do will know just what meant to say:
It is a personal hatred of Russia on the part of some . . .
Russian laws have insulted their life style, so they demand we fight a third World War to assuage their wounded pride.
I, for one, am not ready to get on that particular bandwagon.
A. L.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014881926#post185
That is a flat statement laws establishing persecution of gay people are no more than 'insult to their life-style', and that gay people are pressing for WWIII to 'assuage their wounded pride'....
IronGate
(2,186 posts)What will it take for you to finally pull your head out of the sand and admit that Putin has illegally invaded the Ukraine? Russian troops occupying Kiev?
No, probably not, judging by your constant defense of Moscow, you'll find some excuse to justify the occupation.
7962
(11,841 posts)Will you admit it when Russian jets "volunteer" to attack Ukraine?
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)I will ask if I can bring my tank or artillery with me on vacation
OnlinePoker
(5,719 posts)Along with their voluntary tanks, APCs and artillery.
EX500rider
(10,847 posts)But now experts at the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) in London have told the BBC that they have identified a Russian tank in a separatist column in eastern Ukraine that they say could only have come from across the border in Russia.
This variant, distinguished by the prominent Kontakt-5 Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) arrangement - the boxes on the turret front - is commonly referred to by Western sources as the T-72BM.
It is operated by the Russian Army in large numbers, but crucially it is not known to have been exported or operated outside of Russia.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28961080
Tarheel_Dem
(31,234 posts)my ass! 
tabasco
(22,974 posts)HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Bookmarked!
truth2power
(8,219 posts)well, just because.
On the other hand, any nonsense distributed by a US Government toady is to be accepted at face-value. Geez!
Bosonic
(3,746 posts)MOSCOW, Aug 28 (Reuters) - A member of President Vladimir Putin's advisory council on human rights, Ella Polyakova, said on Thursday she believed Russia was carrying out an invasion of Ukraine.
"When masses of people, under commanders' orders, on tanks, APCs and with the use of heavy weapons, (are) on the territory of another country, cross the border, I consider this an invasion," Polyakova told Reuters.
http://www.trust.org/item/20140828104231-bpele/?source=shtw
pampango
(24,692 posts)"When masses of people, under commanders' orders, on tanks, APCs with the use of heavy weapons, (are) on the territory of another country, cross the border, I consider this an invasion," Polyakova told Reuters.
Russian markets dived as fears grew that the country was escalating its role in the conflict, a move that could provoke the U.S. and European Union to impose further sanctions on Russian businesses and individuals. Russia's MICEX index dropped nearly two per cent on Thursday, and major Russian banks VTB and Sberbank dropped more than four per cent.
The new southeastern front raised fears that the separatists are seeking to create a land link between Russia and Crimea. If successful, it could give them or Russia control over the entire Sea of Azov and the gas and mineral riches that energy experts believe it contains. Ukraine already has lost roughly half its coastline, several major ports and significant Black Sea mineral rights in March when Russia annexed Crimea.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russian-troops-have-entered-ukraine-ukraine-president-says-1.2749066
As it stands now there is no land access from Russia to Crimea. If Russia annexes the southeast coast of Ukraine there would be a continuous stretch of land connecting Russia and Crimea. Crimea would be much easier to reach from and integrate into Russia. Novoazovsk is the city on the coast that tanks have entered. Mariupol is probably next.
Map of SE Ukraine and previous separatist areas. ........................................................................... Helpful map provided by the Canadian government.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28951319 ........................................http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/hey-russia-canadas-government-made-this-helpful-map-for-you--xJ1_cu0c7e
Bosonic
(3,746 posts)https://twitter.com/USUN/status/504987963026321408
VanGoghRocks
(621 posts)irrelevance when it failed to protect Iraq from Bush's war crimes back in 2003 (and failed to levy any meaningful sanctions against the crimianl U.S. regime thereafter).
And the Russian Federation has VETO POWER on the Security Council. (Not to mention de facto veto power on the ground in Ukraine.)
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)support its fascist government.
Why are you here?
VanGoghRocks
(621 posts)displaying your ignorance for the entire world to see and laugh hysterically at, sonny boy?
Come back after you've read Paxton's Anatomy of Fascism and when you can explain how a multi-party parliamentary system of government (the Russian Federation's Duma) is actually fascism.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Its dictator assassinates and imprisons his critics, closes down human rights agencies and newspapers, scapegoats GLBT citizens and encourages bigotry and violence against them, etc.
Putin's counterpart in North Korea holds elections too.
VanGoghRocks
(621 posts)IronGate
(2,186 posts)when you're confronted with facts, you quit the game.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)IronGate
(2,186 posts)Tarheel_Dem
(31,234 posts)
pampango
(24,692 posts)Fascist movements shared certain common features, including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation, and it asserts that stronger nations have the right to expand their territory by displacing weaker nations.
Fascism borrowed theories and terminology from socialism but replaced socialism's focus on class conflict with a focus on conflict between nations and races. Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky to secure national self-sufficiency and independence through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.
The Nazis said that homosexuality was degenerate, effeminate, perverted, and undermined masculinity because it did not produce children.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
Veneration of the state (Mother Russia) - check
devotion to a strong leader - check
emphasis on ultranationalism and militarism - check
politcal violence, war and imperialism - check
strong nations (Russia) have a right to expand their territory by displacing weaker nations (Ukraine) - check
focus on conflict between nations (Russia vs. US/EU) and races (ethnic Russian in Ukraine) - check
protectionist and interventionist economic policies - check
homosexuality is forbidden by the state - check.
VanGoghRocks
(621 posts)the U.S.A.
Surely you're not saying the U.S.A. is 'fascist'?
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)Yet you don't hesitate in a blink of an eye to call them fascist.
Which is it sir? Is it one or another?
IronGate
(2,186 posts)You seem to approve of this latest Russian invasion, you seem to cheer on Moscow's lackeys against the sovereign country of Ukraine.
Why is that?
VanGoghRocks
(621 posts)mercenaries folded in) are great when it comes to shelling residential areas where non-combatants live. Oh yeah, and burning women and children to death as they did in Odessa.
But Ukrainian forces SUCK when it comes to battling armed and organized Russian Slavs. (See their recent retreat in complete and utter disarray in the southeast before the separatists' advances).
What will be truly, grimly comic will be watching the West utterly and completely abandon its clueless proxies and stooges in Kiev as soon as their utter LOSER-DOM becomes self-evident. (Probably within a week to 10 days, I'm guessing.)
The irony is that, had Kiev spurned Brzezinski's, Brennan's and Biden's (the Killer B's) pillow talk and gone with Lavrov's 'federalism' proposal from June, the Banderite fascists and neo-Nazis could have had 90% of what they wanted. Now they will be lucky to wind up with a rump state, if that. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of fascist and neo-Nazi thugs.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)ultranationalist pro- Putin nonsense will convince anyone who isn't a member of Russia's fascist right.
We, unlike you, generally abhor fascism and wars of aggression.
VanGoghRocks
(621 posts)several close family members during the Nazi's Siege of Leningrad, i.e., real fascism, as opposed to your ignorant slur.)
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)warmongers and bigots.
This is not debated outside the fascist right in Russia.
VanGoghRocks
(621 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)when we see one. We can also spot those who share that thug's ideology.
Cayenne
(480 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)wars of aggression--like Putin and Bush--belong in prison.
Russia invaded Ukraine and took over several cities. So yes there will be tragic fighting there and I am sure there have been war crimes committed by the Ukrainians as well as Russians.
But nothing on the scale of what Putin did to the Chechens.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Whether or not you call him fascist doesn't matter. He is now a dictator. One who is popular in his country, perhaps, and with others, though I have no idea why. He advocates political conformity, will not tolerate political dissent, embraces the church as a means of establishing moral authority, is homophobic, calls on ethnic and nationalistic feelings to justify his actions and solidify his support, and is a practiced liar.
I doubt he cares about his dead relatives. The man is KGB and has ice in his veins. He will use whatever techniques work, regardless of their origins.
VanGoghRocks
(621 posts)in the Duma. Because all fascists are tolerant of the Communist Party.
Hint: Go back to school, sonny boy, and come back here after you've done some learning.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Much of Putin's strategy involves harkening back to the glory days of the Soviet Union. His "tolerance" of the Communists serves that purpose.You're not REALLY arguing that Putin tolerates political dissent are you? He allows token opposition, but anything that represents a real threat is crushed like a bug.
I guess you have a picture of ole Vlad up on the wall, eh?
VanGoghRocks
(621 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I said in my original reply to you he was popular in his own country. That is, of course, part of his strategy.
Many political strongmen have enjoyed immense popularity while crushing minorities and opposition. That's how they come to power. I'm sure that I don't need to list people in history who have taken a similar path. Not for a savvy person like yourself.
That doesn't change the facts about what he actually does though. A popular dictator is still a dictator.
VanGoghRocks
(621 posts)'popular legitimacy' and 'dictatorship,' don't you think?
Fascists as a general rule jail and kill Communists. Fascists don't 'tolerate' Communists. But you persist in calling Putin a 'fascist' or a 'dictator,' if it brings you some sort of emotional satisfaction. I really couldn't care less.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I think the tyranny of a majority is STILL a tyranny.
I don't usually use the term fascist in regards to Putin because people like you will start to argue meaningless semantics. I think the term applies in its broadest use meaning, but if it twists your knickers, then fine. I don't care. The guy is a brutal thug however you slice it, and what you call him doesn't change that.
VanGoghRocks
(621 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Or are you saying that Russians like brutal leaders?
Or something else?
You seem to be talking in circles now.
VanGoghRocks
(621 posts)than twice as popular to his people as Obama is to his.
So who has more legitimacy? I mean can one even really speak of a 'brutal dictator' when said person has an 88% domestic approval rating? I suppose one can, in that the remaining 12% might perceive said person as a 'brutal dictator.' But it does seem to be stretching linguistic ingenuity to its limits.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)Worship of force, of decisiveness, is one of the keys to the popularity of fascism and fascist leaders. A lack of popularity, for a fascist dictator, represents a public judgement he is not very good at it, that he has chosen too wide a spectrum as targets for brutal ostracization, or that he has led the people into defeat or ridicule, or even that he has not been quite brutal enough.
4Q2u2
(1,406 posts)Their leaders have 100% approval ratings. I guess they are that much better than Putin.
You are going to hang your hat on approval ratings.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/01/joseph-stalin-more-popular-in-russia-now_n_2791776.html
http://rbth.com/society/2013/03/04/half_of_russians_remain_positive_about_stalin_23503.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2331709/Russias-favourite-leader-revealed-Leonid-Brezhnev-established-political-repression-awarded-military-honours-didnt-deserve.html
Ya those Russians sure picked a lot of winners.
Hey, but if you cannot trust a former KGB all-star like Putin who can you trust.
VanGoghRocks
(621 posts)Banderites of western Ukraine who still long for the glory days of the SS Galician Diviision.
Yup, those Ukrainians sure know how to pick winners.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)To what ends will you go to to justify or excuse Pooty's now blatant invasion of the sovereign country of Ukraine?
Especially here on a liberal/progressive site?
Are you sure you're in the right place?
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)Sicko.
Anyone who knows history knows that Stalin's fight against Hitler had absolutely nothing to do with altruism and everything about control of Europe for themselves.
When you had the two most brutal men of the 20th Century head off face to face, brutal things were bound to happen. And did they ever.
4Q2u2
(1,406 posts)Stalin did nothing to defeat Hitler. The Russian People sacrificed and endured the hardship of the War to win. Stalin had his own machine guns pointing at his troops to kill them if they retreated.
You were talking about approval ratings but could not answer my post, just deflect with weak sauce, for I never made one mention of Ukrainian Glory days.
Speaking of Glory days, did not someone else already point out to you about Putin is stuck in the same mind set that you accuse others of, trying to recreate the Glory that was the USSR.
I hope you have a good chiropractor to undo all those twist you have done to your positions.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)By the way, a large portion of the Soviet army in World War II were Ukrainians. And in return for their service, Stalin persecuted them.
4Q2u2
(1,406 posts)Shinning through. His Idol worship blinds him to the facts. That is why Putin can do no wrong.
Response to 4Q2u2 (Reply #222)
Post removed
4Q2u2
(1,406 posts)Most of his friends and General Officers were put to death.
I think you should turn your head the other way. I do not think you can hear so well out of that ear.
VanGoghRocks
(621 posts)with Eisenhower after Ike became U.S. President. (IIRC, Zhukov sent Ike a set of golf clubs as a birthday present one year.)
Zhukov, victor at Stalingrad, gave ultimate credit to Stalin AFTER STALIN HAD DIED!
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)Un-fucking-believable.
I'd really like to say two little words to you on behalf of my deceased grandparents, both of whom were persecuted greatly under Stalin, but I already had a post hidden yesterday and I'd prefer not to do it again.
Defending Stalin. Jeez a whiz.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)Mail Message
On Fri Aug 29, 2014, 08:32 AM an alert was sent on the following post:
Bwa-ha-ha. You completely ignore Marshall Zhukov's post-mortem appreciation of
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=883136
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Accusing DU members of being "Banderite losers"
This is a personal attack and should be hidden
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Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)Does that make Rush Limbaugh a good guy?
Argumentum ad populum.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)take a poll of surrounding countries, former Soviet bloc countries on Pooty's popularity and see just how well love he really is outside of Russia.
NickB79
(19,243 posts)Upon his arrival to London, he continued to support the Russian oligarch in exile, Boris Berezovsky, in his media campaign against the Russian government.[1]
In the UK, Litvinenko became a journalist for a Chechen separatist site, Chechenpress. Litvinenko wrote two books, Blowing up Russia: Terror from within and Lubyanka Criminal Group, where he accused the Russian secret services of staging Russian apartment bombings and other terrorism acts to bring Vladimir Putin to power.
On 1 November 2006, Litvinenko suddenly fell ill and was hospitalized. He died three weeks later, becoming the first confirmed victim of lethal polonium-210-induced acute radiation syndrome.[2] According to doctors, "Litvinenko's murder represents an ominous landmark: the beginning of an era of nuclear terrorism".[3][4][5]
And lest we not forget what Putin did to his last political challenger: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/28/us-russia-yukos-idUSKBN0FW0TP20140728
Khodorkovsky, who used to be Russia's richest man, was arrested at gunpoint in 2003 and convicted of theft and tax evasion in 2005. Yukos, once worth $40 billion, was broken up and nationalized, with most assets handed to Rosneft (ROSN.MM), an energy giant run by an ally of Putin.
After 10 years in jail, Putin pardoned Khodorkovsky in December and he now lives in Switzerland.
We know exactly how Putin and his cronies treat REAL dissent inside their midst.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)face of the Earth. The US is ruled lock stock and barrel by the the 1 and less than 1 percent oligarchs. Russia is also rule by oligarchs but not nearly like this country.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)They had uprooted the separatists from their primary operations center in Sloviansk back in July, and retook several other key towns as well.
Then shortly thereafter, on July 17th, pro-Russian separatists recklessly shot MH17 out of the sky. (And yes, all logical signs point to pro-Russian separatists as the culprits.) Whatever remaining shred of sympathy and support for the separatists vanished apart from Russian state media and its parrots.
Following that, the "People's Government" in "Novorossiya" started desperately shuffling its leadership.
Then, just in the past couple of weeks, there has been a magical, out of the blue pushback from the separatists. This seems to have coincided with increasing reports of incursions by the Russian regular army. Do you really see this as a great coincidence? It's as if Moscow knew they were losing the proxy war with its reckless and inept separatist tools, so they figured it was time to bring the pros in.
Oh yeah, one more thing: Five.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)on folks like you falling for Ukraines lies so he could move into the South and establish another supply line after being faced by 17 or so Ukrainian Nazis. Now all the mineral rights along the Sea of Azov will belong to Russia. Course, you could send Biden in again with a bunch of promises. The Candy Man should have taken the Federation course and none of this would be happening.Now he is approximately redundant and due for being removed from office.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)I mean, if he doesn't care about previous treaties regarding Ukrainian sovereignty.....
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)Nuland started selling Kagan cookies in Kiev. This changed everything.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)Please expound. You're not making any sense.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)as a 3rd party interloper with assigned or inferred rights in said treaty? When the US dropped into Ukraine as a 3rd party agent provocateur they violated the agency contract post completion. No time to explain contract law or international contracts to you.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)......you clearly remain ignorant of what was agreed upon in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, or even who its parties were and what the respective promises were.
The parties to the Budapest Memorandum were Ukraine, Russia, US and the UK. What Ukraine agreed to do was to disgorge itself of the nuclear arsenal left within its borders from the old Soviet days. In return, Russia, the US and the UK would all agree to respect the sovereignty and independence of Ukraine within its existing borders, and to refrain from force or threats of force against Ukraine. As part of the agreement, Russia was allowed to keep its existing bases for its Black Sea naval fleet in Crimea but that did not extend to Crimea proper, which was to remain in Ukraine's hands.
Now, first, you have to convince me that the United States did anything to interfere with Ukraine's sovereignty, that it was somehow behind the regime change that occurred after Yanukovych left the country. Someone handing out cookies does not prove this. Sorry.
Furthermore, even if handing out cookies by a US official was somehow a violation of the Budapest Memorandum, it would not have extinguished Russia's obligations under the treaty. Russia would still have to abide by its terms. Sending in troops into Crimea, and then annexing Crimea into the Russian Federation, clearly violates the terms of the Budapest Memorandum.
Get it now? Good. Now get back to class. Prof's talking about the Rule against Perpetuities and I don't think you want to be distracted for that one.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)involvement with Ukraine in an attempt to overthrow the government was de facto interference with the sovereignty of Ukraine. Are you crazy? No one had any obligations to do anything under treaty after the Maidan Nezalezhnosti incidents. With treaties no longer being in force, Putin had every right to annex Crimea to protect its interests. Rule against Perpetuities? Is someone leaving DU again? Monroe would laugh at you.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)You know how stupid that sounds?
Under that analogy, then the US has every right to annex Mexico to protect it's interests, right?
freshwest
(53,661 posts)
IronGate
(2,186 posts)According to the poster, it would be well within our right to do so to protect our interests.
BTW, love your sigline pics, especially the one of the cat.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)Not even Russia claims the agreement has been abrogated, but merely that the departure of Crimea from Ukraine resulted from internal political processes, not any use of force by Russia or anyone else.
The idea that a revolution in a country ends treaty obligations has no foundation whatever in international law; a revolutionary government may repudiate a previous regime's signature, but even that may not be recognized as relieving it of treaty obligations by other signatories. Similarly, a government may declare it is no longer bound by assurances given a previous regime, and this also may not be recognized as relieving it of obligations by anyone else.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)Again, assume only for the sake of argument that US somehow did violate Ukraine's sovereignty in violation of the Budapest Memorandum (which, I'll repeat, there is no evidence whatsoever that the US ever did). How does that extinguish Russia's obligations?
Ukraine disarming its nuclear arsenal was supposed to be a benefit to surrounding countries and to the major powers that were signatories to the treaty (that being the US, UK and Russia). Now, are you familiar with the legal concept of consideration? Essentially you have to give a little to get a little. It's a promise for a promise.
Arguably, and realistically speaking, a Ukraine without nuclear weapons would be considerably weaker than a Ukraine with nuclear weapons. So in exchange for disarming and weakening itself, Ukraine would want some guarantees from the other major powers. And those guarantees would be that Ukraine is not attacked or invaded or disrupted by those major military powers.
Ultimately and as per the treaty, Ukraine did disarm its nuclear arsenal. Therefore, its performance was done. Over. Complete. It owed nothing more to the US, UK or Russia other than to remain nuclear free.
However, the same couldn't be said for the US, UK and Russia.....since Ukraine had now disarmed itself, they all independently and separately had to refrain from violating Ukraine's sovereignty. And if one did violate Ukraine's sovereignty, it didn't extinguish the duties of the other two to continue to respect it. Because think about it--if somehow the US did violate Ukraine's sovereignty, how would it be fair to Ukraine to say that the UK and Russia can now invade?
Again, you're making no logical sense whatsoever.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,316 posts)You are the one supporting an illegal invasion, here.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)invasion for me to the set the tone for a counter-attack. If you come to my house and knock over my fountain and slit my tires, I will come for you in the Swordfish methodology. Count on it.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,316 posts)When a Ukrainian is in their own capital, it is not an invasion. It's especially not an invasion by Americans.
"If you come to my house and knock over my fountain and slit my tires, I will come for you in the Swordfish methodology. Count on it."
I have no idea what this is a reference to. A Steven Segal film? Experimental poetry? A line for one spy to recognise another in a WW2 movie?
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)operatives were there all the time. Did they have tanks and sidearms? No. Did they have words and enticements? Yes. Your definition of an invasion is too pure for me. This is a new world and the definition of an invasion has changed. And the invaders are not always the military.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)the scary thing here is that you actually believe this bullshit.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)Your comments have the air of the pro se pleadings which brighten a court clerk's day, and are passed around at lunch in episodes of 'can you top this?'
"If you have four apples and seven pencils, how many pancakes fit on the roof? Purple! Because aliens don't wear hats!"
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)That's asinine.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)as an undermining agent, then, yes, that would constitute an invasion.
in·va·sion noun \in-ˈvā-zhən\
Definition of INVASION
1
: an act of invading; especially : incursion of an army for conquest or plunder
2
: the incoming or spread of something usually hurtful
See invasion defined for English-language learners »
See invasion defined for kids »
Examples of INVASION
The enemy launched an invasion.
The people live under a constant threat of invasion.
The town is gearing up for the annual tourist invasion.
protecting the house from insect invasion
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)On the other hand, the definition you provide matches precisely what Russia is doing at present in Ukraine: 'incursion of an army for conquest'....
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)This is reaching absurd levels.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)of Putin's misdeeds in Ukraine.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)
IronGate
(2,186 posts)I have this sudden urge for a glass of milk and some cookies.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)all that was done there to overthrow the government.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)Suuuuuure it is.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)No, seriously.
Which was what?
I've been asking that question for over six months now....exactly how exactly did the US effectuate an overthrow of the Ukrainian government?
No one's given me an actual fact based answer. No one's even shown there was an actual coup.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)5 billions dollars inciting the Ukrainian revolt against Yanukovych, which ultimately led to the election of Petro Poroshenko. Her efforts were done so that the US would have a willing puppet in Kiev. This led to Russia annexing Ukraine and will eventually lead to Russia absorbing major parts of Ukraine. I don't believe you didn't know this. Had Yanukovych, a crook himself, had stayed Ukraine would still own Crimea and have not had so many deaths in Odessa and other places.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)one where she said "fuck Europe" pretty much cemented her activities. DD it yourself; I real work to do; I'm not rich like you.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)It's your conspiracy theory, not mine. The burden of proof to prove it is on you, not me.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)Ukraine was given about five billions in various aid over the entire span of its independence, roughly a quarter century.
The much-ballyhooed telephone conversation is nothing but the expression of a preferred outcome to a fluid situation; it establishes nothing regarding direction or agency.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)IronGate
(2,186 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)newthinking
(3,982 posts)She was in the Bush admin and worked for Right wing "Think Tanks" (the kind we all hate here).
It is interesting how history is quickly forgotten: The problems with the Orange Revolution and Yushenko were well documented even on DU.
Of course, after 65 Million dollars were spent via a coalition of Neo-cons, the Republican institute, and George Soros,
Yushenko ended up being unpopular and was defeated 4 years later.
Interestingly, one of the things that lost him the Presidency only 15 months later was his turn toward the same brand of extreme nationalism. He elevated Stephen Bandera, (a very controversial figure who is revered by extreme factions that Europe and others warned were tied to Social Nationalist Fascist groups) to "Hero" status.
http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2010/feb/24/a-fascist-hero-in-democratic-kiev/
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)The undertaking referenced is the Budapest Memorandum, in which Ukraine agreed to give up nuclear weapons in its possession, in exchange for promises force would never be used against its territory, with Russia, the United States, and England signing as guarantors.
Not even Russia claims the agreement has been abrogated, but merely that the departure of Crimea from Ukraine resulted from internal political processes, not any use of force by Russia or anyone else.
The idea that a revolution in a country ends treaty obligations has no foundation whatever in international law; a revolutionary government may repudiate a previous regime's signature, but even that may not be recognized as relieving it of treaty obligations by other signatories. Similarly, a government may declare it is no longer bound by assurances given a previous regime, and this also may not be recognized as relieving it of obligations by anyone else.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)
Xolodno
(6,395 posts)Make Putin out to be crazy enough (and probably is) to order a full scale invasion, so when he heads back to Kiev, everyone has to accept the current offer of peace (which has been around for awhile now)....or be deposed by a Russian invasion.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/08/ukraine-cites-russia-support-peace-plan-2014826235310596936.html
CNN had the headline this morning "Ukraine: This is a full scale invasion!".
Ummm...if it was, Kiev would be under fire from missiles and Russia's air-force. While tanks, APC, etc. would be already on their way to take the city.
VanGoghRocks
(621 posts)already be at the Polish border
WTF do these pro-Banderite fools have for breakfast, is what I want to know. I want some of what they're smoking.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)is puke worthy on a progressive website.
Enjoy your stay.
meMeMEEEE
(40 posts)you two sound like Tomik and Bellgarde
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)abject hysteria on this board regarding Ukraine.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)from a certain few here also.
nilesobek
(1,423 posts)Pat Robertson was on tee vee this morning calling for squadrons of American fighter and bomber jets to defend Kiev.
Earlier, in another thread, a pro-Kiev poster said the US was invulnerable to ballistic missile attack.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)that Russia is right next to Ukraine and the US is 4864 miles away?
IronGate
(2,186 posts)Xolodno
(6,395 posts)...Pre-Invasion Iraq.
The media knows how to do its job. Both sides of the media have been exaggerating (and out right fibbing) with the "terrorists" and "fascists" moniker.
This whole thing is about mainly one thing...and ironically the same thing it was about Iraq. Energy. And who is going to help Ukraine develop those gas wells and transport it (much like Iraq in where Halliburton and other US companies got most of the contracts to develop the oil resources....where the real money was).
Since Bush, the US has poured money into NGO's to install a US friendly (note...I didn't say western) government. And almost had it with Yushchenko (only thing Russia was capable of doing to keep Ukraine in their influence at that point was a failed assassination attempt). But then Tymoshenko and Yushchenko got into a power struggle allowing Yanukovych to take the lead, who was friendly to Russia.
....and that should have been it. Russia won that round due to the US backed group infighting and falling apart. But...apparently, someone convinced the Obama administration it was still possible to install a friendly Ukrainian government. However, this time around Putin doesn't have to rely on the FSB completely to do his work.
Its pretty obvious, much like the War in Georgia, Putin was expecting this. Took Crimea without firing a shot and is now assisting and fomenting enough unrest in the East (where all the gas deposits are). US media would have you believe the separatists were on their death bed....all the while I was reading on BBC news that the hardest part of the war was just beginning.
And US media has been calling Putin crazy....guess what, he just played the crazy card. If Poroshenko can't get the other leaders in Kiev onboard to accepting the peace agreement (because Putin is obviously nuts)....then Putin is going to continue this in to the winter when it really starts to hurt, time and patience is on his side. Field Marshal Mikhail Kutuzov would be proud.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)people to think he was doing one thing but actually doing another. He does't have Major Putin's smile though. Putin planned on taking out the entire southern coastline while he was doing Crimea, but he had to wait to see if the US was going to keep supporting that moron Petro,who should have stuck to making caramel turtles. I would like to go to Moscow some day. I went to Russia (St. Petersburg) once many years ago when my niece adopted a newborn baby. She did that twice, but I didn't go for the second one. The people were very nice and everything was real organized. Americans are not allowed to adopt Russian babies any more. Anyway, thanks for your post. I agree with everything you said that I understand.
EX500rider
(10,847 posts)Trains ran on time did they?
VanGoghRocks
(621 posts)IronGate
(2,186 posts)IronGate
(2,186 posts)but their Fire Service is certainly not well organized, compared to western Fire Services, they are at least 20-30 years behind.
VanGoghRocks
(621 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)As you're pointing out, if there was even half of "a full scale invasion" (god, the insane rhetoric) the whole of Ukraine would be occupied in a week. What would come next would be very bad for everyone, including Russia in countless ways - economic disaster and the inevitable insurgency. Another reason why the idea is ridiculous. But the Western media have so far transported every ridiculous trope out of Kiev, including the labeling of a third of the Ukrainian population as "terrorists."
So if we're lucky, this is a face-saving move prior to the ceasefire. It's not like there aren't enough rabid maniacs a la Tyanybuk and Tymoshenko on Poroshenko's right for him to pacify.
Of course, this is also true:
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)like Rapunzel.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/03/25/in-latest-wiretapping-leak-yulia-tymosh
I know you're kidding, but plenty of people forget this stuff.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)woman. She's the kind that was doing experiments on children at Buchenwald.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,316 posts)A spokesman for the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) has told reporters: "The credibility of the Russian Federation's concern for the humanitarian situation in eastern Ukraine is zero, given that the Russian Federation is behind the violence that is eroding that humanitarian situation."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28966679
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)That is simply priceless....
"It's all lies, lies against my boys!"
muriel_volestrangler
(101,316 posts)and yet there are some desperate to lap it up when a right-winger like Putin uses it.
reorg
(3,317 posts)Speculation was growing last night that American mercenaries had been deployed to Donetsk after videos emerged of unidentified armed men in the streets of the eastern Ukrainian city.
At least two videos published on YouTube earlier this week show burly, heavily armed soldiers with no insignia in the city, which has been gripped by pro-Moscow protests.
In one of the videos onlookers can be heard shouting 'Blackwater! Blackwater!' as the armed men, who wear no insignia, jog through the streets.
Bild cites sources who report that on April 29, Germany's Federal Intelligence Service (BND) informed the Angela Merkel government about Academi commandos' involvement in Kiev's military operations in eastern Ukraine. Spiegel adds that "the information originates from U.S. intelligence services and was presented during a meeting chaired by the Chancellor's Office chief Peter Altmaier (CDU). At the meeting were present the president of the intelligence agencies and the Federal Criminal Office, as well as the intelligence coordinator of the Chancellor's Office and senior Ministry officials."
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-11/400-blackwater-mercs-deployed-ukraine-against-separatists-german-press-reports
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)The Kremlin disinformation mill worked hard yesterday getting the “US mercenaries in Ukraine!” story out on its own state-controlled networks and sites of fellow travelers abroad — but in fact, it was recycling a story that had failed to gain traction a month ago and the second telling of the story didn’t stand up to scrutiny, either. In early March the “Blackwater” story surfaced on conspiracy sites from infowars.com to dailypaul.com; today it ended up on Daily Kos, which claimed a pedigree for the story going back to Phantom Report sourced from politikus.ru and only then ostensibly “being picked up” by RT.com and Daily Mail.
But politikus.ru links to another site, argumenty.ru with the “Blackwater” claim in a story by Aleksandr Grigoryev. In this likely original version dated 3 March, there were a “thousand” mercenaries in the western part of Ukraine, of which “300? were “from Greystone,” and had arrived by a chartered plane from London. The source for the story was “former SBU agents,” i.e. from the Ukrainian Ministry of State Security who also claimed there were Syrian and Chechen fighters now in Ukraine. Grigoryev’s stories generally hew to the Kremlin line, and he has filed dubious reports blaming the CIA for the Westgate Mall terrorist attack in Kenya; accusing Jordan of a likely provocation with chemical weapons in Syria and claiming Russian soldiers were fighting in Syria. Then a month ago, the Daily Mail published a lurid story: “At least two videos published on YouTube earlier this week show burly, heavily armed soldiers with no insignia in the city, which has been gripped by pro-Moscow protests” — and embedded a video from “alexk” which has since disappeared, but which has been uploaded by a number of other users, the earliest apparently this one 3 March:
The story was presented differently today again by RIA Novosti as a source “in Ukrainian law-enforcement,” implying someone currently employed. Once again, the story was extremely thin and followed a predictable trajectory — and 150 soldiers were gained — or actually lost — along the way. Russian blogger Alexander Vinokurov wrote on his Facebook that he was watching the 21:00 pm news on Channel 1 yesterday and saw the story about “the American mercenaries from Blackwater sent to Donetsk,” sourced to state news agency RIA Novosti — an outlet that recently was brought under tighter control in the reorganized Rossiya Segodnya state media empire. RIA Novosti had the story already posted on its site at 21:00; Channel 1 had it by 21:06 and then others within the hour. “How do you like that speed?” joked Vinokurov. “Even if it wasn’t there, it was already there.” Russian commentators of course noted that there was no longer any “Blackwater” as such, as the company was reorganized and renamed Academi.
Later in the day, as the story picked up steam, the Russian Foreign Ministry posted a notice about it on its Facebook page and embellished it with the detail that there were “150? such soldiers — a detail that was not in RIA Novosti’s original 7 April report (but remember, a month ago, there were originally 300 such mercenaries in argumenti.ru):
“According to available information,internal troop divisions in the national guard of Ukraine with participation of fighters of the unlawful armed formation Right Sector are drawing toward the south-eastern districts of Ukraine, including Donetsk. Their task is the forcible suppression of protests of residents of the South-East of the country against the policy of the current Kiev authorities. Particular alarm is caused by the fact that about 150 American specialists from Greystone, a private military organization, dressed in the uniform of Sokol division fighters, have been brought into this operation.”
What happened to 150 American mercenaries? Did they get lost? Perhaps having absorbed the point that there was no longer any “Blackwater,” the Foreign Minister made sure to switch to “Greystone” — which was formerly a corporate unit of Blackwater but now a standalone business. But they felt they had better add in some number.
Zerohedge.com, a site that frequently breaks Kremlin news in English dutifully picked it up.
But remember — the current RIA Novosti source was “a source in the Ukrainian law-enforcement agencies” — not the Russian government — and perhaps that was designed to make it seem more convincing. Only Channel 1 supplied unclear footage with its brief account of “mercenaries from the private USA military company Blackwater” dressed in the “uinform of the Ukrainian Interior Ministry Sokol spetsnaz” fighters; others did not supply any pictures or video of these supposed troops; the picture put with the Evromaiden2014 story was in fact one used for at least 7 years showing Blackwater personnel posing and the other videos existed before this fresh “Blackwater” claim today. In short, the story follows the pattern we’ve seen so many times before with stories emanating from Russia — an uncheckable kernel of a story with an anonymous source, embellishment throughout the day, synapse jumps to the pro-Kremlin networks and tabloids, and pretty soon even credible outlets are covering it.
http://www.interpretermag.com/russia-this-week-communist-wins-mayoral-elections-in-novosibirsk/
( link is to an omnibus page, scroll down a bit past halfway to find it )
reorg
(3,317 posts)The German intelligence service informed the German government, referring to information they had received from American intelligence services. No German official has denied the substance or the truth of these reports.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ausland/laut-zeitungsbericht-amerikanische-soeldner-sollen-in-ostukraine-kaempfen-12933968.html
Spiegel article
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)The report boils down to 'we heard people are saying this', and it has no confirmation whatsoever.
Nor, you will note, has it shown any durability: these people have vanished like the morning dew. It has been four or five months since they were supposedly in the fore-front brutalizing demonstrators, and that in an area which has for most of that time been in the hands of people who would have some interest in demonstrating their presence. But nothing has been said. The whole thing is nothing but a tale ventured, to see if some mileage could be got out of conjuring up a bogey-man, and dropped as soon as it was obvious it had no air in it.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,316 posts)They are not part of the US government. They are not using US government equipment. They are not controlled by the US government. They are not on leave from the US government.
reorg
(3,317 posts)We have privatised the military! Can't be held accountable for their actions no more!
The boots on the ground, trained by the US military but now free from constrictions can rape, torture and kill while employer and agent don't know about nothing. If we even know who they are!
... It also enables the Americans, in particular, to wage wars by proxy and without the kind of congressional and media oversight to which conventional deployments are subject.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/dec/10/politics.iraq
muriel_volestrangler
(101,316 posts)then there is no hope for you.
reorg
(3,317 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,316 posts)of some retired US soldiers signing up with Blackwater/etc. and the company sending a few to fight Ukraine, paid for by the Ukrainian government. You are pretending that this means US government interference is on the same level as Russian.
I really never believed I'd have to argue against someone on DU who is making excuses for a right wing leader like Putin invading another country. The world is turned upside down.
reorg
(3,317 posts)are probably a private enterprise, organised by who knows what kind of patriotic organisation while the Russian government only provides moral support and the military might encourage young soldiers to take a leave and embellish their resumés with volunteering for their independent minded brothers in east Ukraine.
While you are wondering about why one might consider the motivation of the other side, does it not strike you as strange that so many on DU are valiantly arguing in favor of what they supposedly oppose at home? A neo-Liberal government starts a massive privatisation campaign, one of the richest guys in the country becomes president, the shale deposits in east Ukraine are already sold off to Shell and BP, sounds like a Libertarian paradise. And the US is supposed to end up with yet another military base near the Russian border. O, the vast mineral resources a future US government will be able to conquer there! All in the name of the fight against Russian "imperialism", LOL!
muriel_volestrangler
(101,316 posts)for such "private enterprise" opportunities. It's well known that Putin doesn't mind other groups being armed with deadly weapons that cost millions of dollars. He's that kind of a libertarian.
'Probably'? You are inventing an alternative reality that would look a bit far fetched in a James Bond movie, and claiming it is the 'probable' reality? Your posts are getting more and more absurd.
"does it not strike you as strange that so many on DU are valiantly arguing in favor of what they supposedly oppose at home?"
Yes, it does, and that's my point - everyone was against the US invasion of Iraq, but here we find people like you making ridiculous excuses for Putin's invasion of Ukraine.
reorg
(3,317 posts)Those who are killing civilians daily are the Ukrainian military and Nazi militias.
And what is the lie Putin made up to justify it -- the still not investigated shootings in Kiev after a consensus was reached? The massacre in Odessa? The recruitment of Nazis into the "National Guard"?
Two of the Russian leaders in the revolt, Borodai and Girkin, are closely connected with circles that according to several sources represent about 10 percent of the Russian electorate. Borodai participated in the coup against Gorbachev, like Alexander Prochanow, supposedly the main propagandist of the "National Front". Vaguely described sometimes as "ultra-nationalist" and fascist or as remnants of the old Communist nomenklatura, or both, they are neither left nor right wingers in traditional terms. While they don't speak for Putin, they are not fringe elements either, well established and visible in the media. The Putin advisor Sergei Glaziev who ran for president against Putin in 2004 is counted among them. No doubt they have good connections in the military and the intelligence service. I don't see why they would not have access to considerable financial resources, too.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)Buddy boy, I'm still in the Military and I answer to the US Govt., not some mercenary outfit.
You have no fucking clue of what you allege.
reorg
(3,317 posts)I am well aware that a large number of posters here are in the military, it explains the patriotic fervor.
Nowhere did I allege that you or even the majority of US forces are already privatised. It is a dream of Libertarians that they were, though.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)
Canada and Russia are now at war:
Canada tweets snarky 'Not Russia' map (BBC)
This is Russia. This is "not Russia".
That's the message the Canadian Nato delegation tweeted, in map form, to Russian soldiers "who keep getting lost and 'accidentally' entering Ukraine".
"Geography can be tough," it notes snarkily.
On Tuesday Ukraine released video of Russian paratroopers it says it captured within its eastern border. In response, Russian military sources said the men had crossed an unmarked portion of the border "by accident".
More at link:
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-28961152
to eppur_se_muova:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025458541
Russian attempts to return fire to the Canadians was rather weak, IMO.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,316 posts)More than 100 Russian soldiers were killed in eastern Ukraine in a single battle in August while helping separatists fight Ukrainian troops, two members of the Russian presidential human rights council are quoted by Reuters as saying.
The council is an advisory body with no legal powers and is described as having an uneasy relationship with the Kremlin.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28966679
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)whole lot...uneasier.
reorg
(3,317 posts)http://globalvoicesonline.org/2014/08/27/russia-ukraine-body-bags-war-secret/
Interestingly, the "two members of the Russian presidential human rights council" have previously worked as a tag team for reports in foreign media such as Deutsche Welle: Crime reportedly flourishes in Russian army and are outspoken members of the Russian opposition.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)That report dates to 26 August, and by 'just admitted' indicates new arrivals.
The report of a hundred dead dates to an incident two weeks back:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/28/us-ukraine-crisis-russia-casualties-excl-idUSKBN0GS20320140828
More than 100 Russian soldiers were killed in eastern Ukraine in a single battle this month while helping pro-Russian separatists fight Ukrainian troops, two members of the Russian presidential human rights council said on Thursday, citing accounts from eyewitnesses and relatives of the dead.
Ella Polyakova and Sergei Krivenko, both members of the council - an advisory body with no legal powers and an uneasy relationship with the Kremlin - said around 300 people were wounded in the same incident on Aug. 13 near the town of Snizhnye, when a column of trucks they were driving, full of ammunition, was hit by a sustained volley of Grad missiles.
"A column of Russian soldiers was attacked by Grad rockets and more than 100 people died. It all happened in the city of Snizhnye in Donetsk province," Krivenko told Reuters.
reorg
(3,317 posts)may bolster the claim by the self-defense forces that they are supported by a number of Russian volunteers and soldiers on leave. A proxy war, as it has been described, not a "Russian invasion".
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)Russia sent four squadrons of fighters, two of bombers, and a tank regiment plus infantry for local security, to China in the late thirties to fight Japanese; all personnel were officially described as volunteers, in no way formed units of the Russian armed forces, and there was a money out one pocket to another bit of book-keeping to pretend the Chinese purchased the equipment, and claims that anyway, the aircrew were there only to train Chinese. Japan not wanting war with Russia much more than Russia did with Japan, did not treat this as grounds for more than strenuous protest, even though the Russian units were quite effective, and some of their personnel captured. No one was fooled, everyone involved, and all informed un-lookers, understood Russia had sent a sizeable ready-made air force to assist China, and did so because it wanted Japan kept busy away from Siberia and the Maritime Provinces.
It is simply a fact that Russia is now sending formed units of Russian soldiery, with their equipment, into Ukraine. You are free to whinge that this is not 'an invasion' because Russia could surely move several divisions under air cover into Ukraine, rather than something which seems in total about the equivalent of a brigade at present. But that does not mean it is not an act of the Russian government, not a deployment of Russian soldiers and equipment under Russian orders into combat with Ukraine's armed forces. The paper-work does not impress me, and it does not alter the essence of the matter. Russia is waging a war against Ukraine, a low intensity war, but a war all the same, and its purpose in waging this is the seizure of territory from a neighboring state --- in short, an act of imperialist aggression. It is intended to pay, with full control of oil and gas in the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov which otherwise would benefit Ukraine, and it is viewed as the first essential step to reconstituting the old Russian land empire, or at least as much of this as can practicably be snarfled up in the present day.
Russia has as much right to try this as anyone else has to employ violence for their own aggrandizement, certainly. The problem I have, and a number of other people have as well, is with people who pretend that Russia is not engaged in imperialist aggression, who couch defense of Russia's aggression in Ukraine in terms of resistance to aggression against Russia, and who give every evidence of believing the shabbiest and most threadbare of lies Russia tells about its actions and purposes, all the while insisting everyone who disagrees is duped by propaganda. I could have some respect for someone who made a case on straight realpolitik grounds, and stated straight out their preferred outcome was that Russia achieve its goals, take as much of Ukraine as it thought best for its interests, and reconstituted its old empire. I could respect someone who viewed the thing as a clash between two imperialisms over who would have the sole exploitation of Ukraine, and preferred it to be Russia who became sole exploiter of Ukraine. But I cannot have the slightest respect for the sort of cant which makes up the overwhelming bulk of the commentary made in support of Russian imperialism here.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
