HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » Latest Breaking News (Forum) » On lead bullets, judges r...

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 05:05 PM

On lead bullets, judges rule against environmentalists

Source: AP-Excite

By PETE YOST

WASHINGTON (AP) — A federal appeals court has ruled against environmentalists who are trying to force the Environmental Protection Agency to regulate spent lead bullets and lead shot used in hunting and shooting sports.

In a decision favorable to gun enthusiasts, the U.S. District Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit said Tuesday that environmental groups have suggested no way in which EPA could regulate spent lead bullets and shot without also regulating cartridges and shells.

The Toxic Substances Control Act exempts cartridges and shells from regulation.

The National Rifle Association and much of the pro-gun lobby intervened on the EPA's side in urging the federal appeals court to uphold the dismissal of a lawsuit by 101 environmentalist organizations.

FULL story at link.


Read more: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20141223/us-epa-spent-lead-bullets-9fef87c939.html

46 replies, 8021 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 46 replies Author Time Post
Reply On lead bullets, judges rule against environmentalists (Original post)
Omaha Steve Dec 2014 OP
Dont call me Shirley Dec 2014 #1
arcane1 Dec 2014 #2
branford Dec 2014 #3
jwirr Dec 2014 #4
Adrahil Dec 2014 #5
jwirr Dec 2014 #6
Adrahil Dec 2014 #14
duhneece Dec 2014 #35
Adrahil Dec 2014 #36
Capt.Rocky300 Dec 2014 #7
branford Dec 2014 #10
jwirr Dec 2014 #22
Capt.Rocky300 Dec 2014 #24
jwirr Dec 2014 #25
jmowreader Dec 2014 #33
NickB79 Dec 2014 #15
GGJohn Dec 2014 #26
freshwest Dec 2014 #29
freshwest Dec 2014 #28
secondvariety Dec 2014 #8
branford Dec 2014 #11
Plucketeer Dec 2014 #12
GGJohn Dec 2014 #27
secondvariety Dec 2014 #38
quadrature Dec 2014 #9
NickB79 Dec 2014 #13
quadrature Dec 2014 #17
Adrahil Dec 2014 #16
quadrature Dec 2014 #18
hack89 Dec 2014 #20
Adrahil Dec 2014 #21
NickB79 Dec 2014 #40
ileus Dec 2014 #19
AndyTiedye Dec 2014 #23
Boxerfan Dec 2014 #30
vkkv Dec 2014 #31
branford Dec 2014 #32
ileus Dec 2014 #34
Brickbat Dec 2014 #42
NickB79 Dec 2014 #44
vkkv Jan 2015 #46
benEzra Dec 2014 #37
madville Dec 2014 #39
NickB79 Dec 2014 #41
sir pball Dec 2014 #43
True Blue Door Dec 2014 #45

Response to Omaha Steve (Original post)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 05:10 PM

1. Below the post was an ad stating "join the NRA"

The irony of the many tentacled claws of these gun monsters

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Omaha Steve (Original post)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 05:15 PM

2. "The Toxic Substances Control Act exempts cartridges and shells from regulation"

 

That shouldn't surprise me.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Omaha Steve (Original post)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 05:31 PM

3. There was no way the court was going to permit the EPA to effectively institute gun control

 

by ancillary bullet control.

In any event, as the article indicates, there are already a number of fairly noncontroversial federal and state statutes and regulations that deal with lead in bullets and shot.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Omaha Steve (Original post)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 05:50 PM

4. Many hunters do not use these types of bullets anymore. At least those who care about the

environment.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to jwirr (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 06:20 PM

5. I never use lead in wilderness shooting... Only at the range.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Adrahil (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 06:25 PM

6. A lot of my friends belong to Ducks Unlimited. They understand that if they use the lead and the

ducks eat it they will be done hunting.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to jwirr (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 08:44 PM

14. Yep. I'm not a hunter, but I want to avoid the lead inadvertently getting into food supply.

 

Most deer hunters I know use steel shot as well.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Adrahil (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 24, 2014, 09:34 AM

35. And I want to keep the lead from getting into our water supply

At the shooting range, are all of the bullets picked up so they don't leach into the ground below them, then into the water tables below ground?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to duhneece (Reply #35)

Wed Dec 24, 2014, 10:36 AM

36. They are fired into artificial berms, which are broken down and cleaned every 5 years.

 

The range pays for ground water monitoring for nearby houses. No issues I know of, and the range has been there for 30+ years

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to jwirr (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 06:41 PM

7. But some still do.........

We live in an area where huge numbers of swans and geese winter and feed in the fields. Every year we lose dozens of swans and hundreds of snow geese due to lead poisoning. My wife is a wildlife rehabber and I can tell you it is an incredibly sad event to watch these magnificent creatures suffer and die.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Capt.Rocky300 (Reply #7)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 08:02 PM

10. Seek relief with your state legislature.

 

As the article indicates, some states and the federal government have imposed various restriction, and to my knowledge, they do not appear very controversial.

The case was really about the EPA and stealth gun control.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Capt.Rocky300 (Reply #7)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 10:13 PM

22. I know. I think the decision of the court is wrong because there are alternatives to lead. It would

not have stopped anyone from hunting.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to jwirr (Reply #22)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 10:27 PM

24. Agreed. But the swans are not game yet they die.................

from inadvertently and unknowingly eating unseen lead shot laying in the fields after goose hunters have been through.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Capt.Rocky300 (Reply #24)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 10:32 PM

25. That is awful. More reason they made the wrong decision.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Capt.Rocky300 (Reply #7)

Wed Dec 24, 2014, 04:16 AM

33. Here's the problem

Even though there is steel shot now, and it works well, there is so much lead shot at the bottom of every waterway, to get it all out of the ecosystem you'd have to dredge every body of water in America - which ain't happening no matter how much we'd like it to.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to jwirr (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 08:47 PM

15. Only shotgun hunters going for birds typically use non-lead ammo

And that's largely because lead ammo is illegal to use for waterfowl, given the propensity of ducks to eat lead shot from lake bottoms thinking it's grit.

Very few deer, bear, elk, or small game hunters use steel or copper ammo, as lead-based ammo is still readily available, cheap, and reliably lethal. I'd say 90% of all the non-shotgun ammo on the shelves in the large hunting stores around here is still lead.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to jwirr (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 10:53 PM

26. This hunter doesn't anymore.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to GGJohn (Reply #26)

Wed Dec 24, 2014, 12:36 AM

29. Kudos to you, GGJohn for sanity. I hiss at the court and utter profanity:



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to jwirr (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 24, 2014, 12:33 AM

28. But the NRA thinks lead is part of a wholesome diet, apparently...



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Omaha Steve (Original post)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 07:04 PM

8. Can't interfere

with their God given right to cheaply shoot the shit out living creatures.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to secondvariety (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 08:04 PM

11. And that is precisely the attitude why the EPA has no jurisdiction over cartridges and shells.

 

Heck, your tone appears that you not only want gun control, but limits on hunting.

Good luck with that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to secondvariety (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 08:26 PM

12. It's that superiority complex

 

Hafta prove their dominion over lesser creatures. Too damned cowardly to wrestle and dispatch them, one on one. Cryin' shame animals can't be armed and afforded stand your ground protection.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to secondvariety (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 10:58 PM

27. And that's exactly the type of attitude that hardens hunters against

those like you.
Anyone who shoots the shit out of wild game is doing it wrong, it should be one shot, one kill.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to GGJohn (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 24, 2014, 04:45 PM

38. "Those like you".

Lol. Like I give a shit what hunters think about me or "my type". You didn't notice I used the word "cheaply" when discussing hunting rounds.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Omaha Steve (Original post)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 07:56 PM

9. simple solution... allow use of steel bullets ...nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to quadrature (Reply #9)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 08:42 PM

13. Steel is a poor substitute for lead

The reason lead works so well is that it deforms readily on impact, and that it's greater density means it carries energy further, making lead bullets hit harder at longer range. Both translate into more humane hunting, as the animal dies faster from it's wounds. There are all-copper bullets available that do expand, and are far better than steel bullets, but are also far more expensive to shoot with.

The only hunters who use steel are those hunting waterfowl with shotguns, and they typically limit their ranges to less than 50 yards.

Even the military surplus steel-core or steel-jacketed ammo still available here still uses mostly lead in it's construction.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NickB79 (Reply #13)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 08:59 PM

17. serious hunting... a tiny fraction of bullets used ...

 

other situations would benefit from steel

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to quadrature (Reply #9)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 08:50 PM

16. Steel bullets don't work all that well.

 

They are too hard to form to the rifling well. But there are non lead alternative alloys that work.

But some weapons really NEED lead bullets. I shoot some antique guns, and they require relatively soft lead bullets.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Adrahil (Reply #16)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 09:01 PM

18. I am not against lead bullets .. I am against ...

 

the law against steel

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to quadrature (Reply #18)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 09:12 PM

20. Steel core bullets are illegal in some states, not steel bullets

Steel core bullets are sometimes classified as armor piercing.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to quadrature (Reply #18)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 09:33 PM

21. Ah I see. n/t

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to quadrature (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 26, 2014, 11:50 AM

40. Until a steel bullet sparks on a rock and starts a forest fire

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/56626213-90/steel-fire-utah-blm.html.csp

At the end of last year year's dry spring, two men fired an AK-74 assault rifle and a 9 mm handgun at wood and steel targets they set up in Burnt Canyon off Utah Lake's west shore. It was a hot windy day and the grasses were dried out, although it was still May.

The rifle's steel-jacketed 5.54x39 mm ammunition likely triggered a fire that burned more than 1,600 acres and cost $33,000 to knock down, according to Jason Curry, a fire investigator with the Utah Division of Forestry.

For years, investigators have suspected ricocheting bullet fragments ignite fires, after an impact with a hard surface converts the round's kinetic energy into searing heat. But there was little scientific basis for understanding how until now. Research forester Mark Finney decided to develop the science after gunfire was implicated in numerous Utah fires last year.

A member of the U.S. Forest Service's Missoula Fire Sciences Laboratory, Finney assembled a team that demonstrated copper and steel ammunition reliably ignite fine, dried fuels.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Omaha Steve (Original post)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 09:07 PM

19. I cast my own...

Hopefully over the next 5 days I can cast a bunch of Jig heads and a few months worth of 9mm's.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Omaha Steve (Original post)

Tue Dec 23, 2014, 10:20 PM

23. Guns Don't Kill, Bullets Do

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Omaha Steve (Original post)

Wed Dec 24, 2014, 12:40 AM

30. Common sense helps in this issue

I am a metal detectorist...
I have pulled bullets from the ground that are well over 100 years old & many large pieces of lead. They all have an oxidized coating & do not leach toxicity to nearby soil.

The danger in lead is when it is ingested or in particulate form. When a gun is fired there is a problematic residue of lead dust. Firing ranges need very heavy ventilation & I believe it is required by law. Small lead shot can be ingested by animals or humans & poisonous.

But I find larger pieces & bullets all the time that are of no danger to anyone if not disturbed or handled improperly.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Omaha Steve (Original post)

Wed Dec 24, 2014, 02:53 AM

31. Fortunately hunting license numbers have been on the decline.

 

In California, but in the U.S. in general.

From 2012.
No state typifies the evolving role of fish and wildlife agencies more than California, where there’s been a precipitous drop in hunting license sales over the last three decades and practices like trophy hunting are alien to the vast majority of the electorate. There were only 268,000 licensed hunters last year in a state with 38 million people―less than 1 percent of the state’s population.

http://blog.humanesociety.org/wayne/2012/02/ca-mountain-lion-killing.html

AND:

The number of gun deer hunting licenses sold to Wisconsin residents declined from 644, 991 in 2000 to 602,791 in 2010. This is a decline of 6.5% in ten years, despite the fact that 10 and 11 year old hunters were added for the first time in 2009 and 2010. Declines have been most stark among males age 25-44, who have (in the recent past) hunted at high rates and killed a large number of deer.

Projections of future hunters suggest that the male gun hunter population will decline more dramatically over the next ten to twenty years. We provide three future scenarios for male gun deer hunters using two different methodological approaches and making different assumptions about future participation rates and how they will vary by age and cohort. Overall, the models suggest that in 2020, the number of male gun hunters will drop to about 480,000 (compared to 549,505 in 2010). If current patterns continue, the number could drop to 400,000 or fewer by 2030.

http://www.huntersnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/APL_hunters2011_web.pdf

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to vkkv (Reply #31)

Wed Dec 24, 2014, 03:44 AM

32. Why is that "fortunate?"

 

People eat and enjoy meat, and in America, that does not appear to be demonstrably declining despite the increasing costs.

Hunting is an inexpensive way to provide organic meat to one's family for some time. It's not like the meat at the supermarket is provided by faeries, and industrial meat production is certainly not popular on DU. Although I don't hunt (not much to hunt in Manhattan!), both as a means of provision and cultural institution in many parts of the country, I and most Americans find nothing wrong with the practice, particularly since it is regulated without much controversy and hunters and licenses provide a great deal of revenue for conservation efforts.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to branford (Reply #32)

Wed Dec 24, 2014, 09:05 AM

34. Don't know about the inexpensive part...

I calculate each pound of processed wild meat to be somewhere in the range of 100 bucks.


Only thing more expensive is the fish we catch....Every fist is about 5 bucks and we never keep one. Catch 100's maybe a thousand a year never keep one.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ileus (Reply #34)

Fri Dec 26, 2014, 12:58 PM

42. $100/pound -- whaaat?

How exactly are you calculating that?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ileus (Reply #34)

Fri Dec 26, 2014, 03:06 PM

44. What are you hunting with, gold bullets?



But seriously, you can get into hunting for under $500 total (gun, ammo, scope, clothing, misc. equipment, license, etc) if you realize you don't need the newest, shiniest gadgets on the market.

A single-shot Rossi or NEF rifle, mil-surp. Mosin Nagant, or single-shot shotgun will set you back less than $200. If you step up to a pump-action shotgun, you can get a Mossberg 2-barrel combo that will allow you to hunt both waterfowl and deer for under $300. A basic 4X or 3-9X scope and a few boxes of generic softpoint ammo will set you back another $100.

And the great thing is that, once you buy the hardware, it lasts for years. The guns should last generations if well-cared for.

The butchers around here charge a couple dollars a pound for processing a deer, and if you are moderately skilled with a knife you can do the butchering in your garage or backyard. You can then turn steak into hamburger with a decent food processor if you feel like it: http://www.thekitchn.com/how-to-grind-your-own-meat-in-134272

Me? I like a more relaxed hunting experience, where I can stroll through the woods on nice days, so I hunt small game with a $100 pellet rifle from Walmart: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Ruger-Blackhawk-Elite/27678724



Amazingly accurate and surprisingly lethal on rabbits and squirrel out to 40 yards with headshots, ammo is everywhere and costs under $10/500 pellets. With a 6-mo hunting season and very generous bag limits, you can bag a lot of meat for not much money.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to branford (Reply #32)

Sat Jan 3, 2015, 03:07 PM

46. The article is about lead toxicity.

 


Less hunters, less lead toxins in the enironment.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to vkkv (Reply #31)

Wed Dec 24, 2014, 02:38 PM

37. Hunting accounts for a very, very small percentage of rounds fired annually.

Target shooters account for the overwhelming majority of the 14-20 billion rounds of ammunition sold annually, and most of that is recycled. Only about 1 in 5 gun owners is a hunter, and many/most hunters also own nonhunting guns. Also, by its nature, target shooting consumes a lot more ammunition than hunting does.

The big problem is that there are no substitutes for lead in handgun and small/intermediate-caliber rifle ammunition that aren't either banned by Federal law (copper, tungsten, steel, bronze, etc. are considered armor piercing, as are most potential lead substitutes), impractical (bismuth, aluminum, gold, silver), or toxic. Back in the 1980s, a lot of recreational target ammunition used a mild steel core, but gun control activists got that banned in 1989 and 1994, as I recall. There is also no good substitute for lead styphnate based primers (the percussion cap that initiates ignition; alternatives so far are unreliable). So a ban on lead ammunition would be a ban on most ammunition, and a functional ban on most guns.

If you want to reduce the use of lead-core ammunition in target shooting, repeal the law against "armor-piercing" non-lead ammunition, and come up with an inexpensive and abundant alloy that approximates the softness, density, and ductility of lead for those uses that require it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to vkkv (Reply #31)

Thu Dec 25, 2014, 11:32 PM

39. They will increase bag limits if hunter numbers decline

They are giving us more doe days here this year, and the buck limit is two a day. Hunters are an essential part of population control since there aren't any natural predators for adult deer here. A friend of mine archery deer hunts in Atlanta residential areas because the numbers have exploded.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to vkkv (Reply #31)

Fri Dec 26, 2014, 11:57 AM

41. As hunting declines, farmers are clearing more land for crops

Hunting gives an economic incentive for farmers to leave land fallow, benefiting wildlife.

Reduce the money hunters are putting into conservation programs, and you see forests clearcut and grasslands plowed up for corn and soy.

I get to see it every year: farmers expanding their fields every spring with chainsaws and bulldozers, and burning the brushpiles every fall

"Fortunately" indeed, if your goal is to wipe out the remaining wildlife we have

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Omaha Steve (Original post)

Fri Dec 26, 2014, 02:35 PM

43. I don't use lead bullets anymore, period. Monometals are better in every single way.

Nothing to do with environmentalism, and everything to do with squeezing every last bit of accuracy and performance from a given load.
I guess cost is an issue, but then again given what I have invested in the firearms themselves, the premium of TSX/GMX/GS-SP isn't so bad.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Omaha Steve (Original post)

Fri Dec 26, 2014, 07:30 PM

45. NRA members ate lead paint chips as kids

so lead must be safe for use in bullets.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread