On lead bullets, judges rule against environmentalists
Source: AP-Excite
By PETE YOST
WASHINGTON (AP) A federal appeals court has ruled against environmentalists who are trying to force the Environmental Protection Agency to regulate spent lead bullets and lead shot used in hunting and shooting sports.
In a decision favorable to gun enthusiasts, the U.S. District Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit said Tuesday that environmental groups have suggested no way in which EPA could regulate spent lead bullets and shot without also regulating cartridges and shells.
The Toxic Substances Control Act exempts cartridges and shells from regulation.
The National Rifle Association and much of the pro-gun lobby intervened on the EPA's side in urging the federal appeals court to uphold the dismissal of a lawsuit by 101 environmentalist organizations.
FULL story at link.
Read more: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20141223/us-epa-spent-lead-bullets-9fef87c939.html
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)The irony of the many tentacled claws of these gun monsters
arcane1
(38,613 posts)That shouldn't surprise me.
branford
(4,462 posts)by ancillary bullet control.
In any event, as the article indicates, there are already a number of fairly noncontroversial federal and state statutes and regulations that deal with lead in bullets and shot.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)environment.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)jwirr
(39,215 posts)ducks eat it they will be done hunting.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Most deer hunters I know use steel shot as well.
duhneece
(4,117 posts)At the shooting range, are all of the bullets picked up so they don't leach into the ground below them, then into the water tables below ground?
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)The range pays for ground water monitoring for nearby houses. No issues I know of, and the range has been there for 30+ years
Capt.Rocky300
(1,005 posts)We live in an area where huge numbers of swans and geese winter and feed in the fields. Every year we lose dozens of swans and hundreds of snow geese due to lead poisoning. My wife is a wildlife rehabber and I can tell you it is an incredibly sad event to watch these magnificent creatures suffer and die.
branford
(4,462 posts)As the article indicates, some states and the federal government have imposed various restriction, and to my knowledge, they do not appear very controversial.
The case was really about the EPA and stealth gun control.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)not have stopped anyone from hunting.
Capt.Rocky300
(1,005 posts)from inadvertently and unknowingly eating unseen lead shot laying in the fields after goose hunters have been through.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)jmowreader
(50,562 posts)Even though there is steel shot now, and it works well, there is so much lead shot at the bottom of every waterway, to get it all out of the ecosystem you'd have to dredge every body of water in America - which ain't happening no matter how much we'd like it to.
NickB79
(19,258 posts)And that's largely because lead ammo is illegal to use for waterfowl, given the propensity of ducks to eat lead shot from lake bottoms thinking it's grit.
Very few deer, bear, elk, or small game hunters use steel or copper ammo, as lead-based ammo is still readily available, cheap, and reliably lethal. I'd say 90% of all the non-shotgun ammo on the shelves in the large hunting stores around here is still lead.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)secondvariety
(1,245 posts)with their God given right to cheaply shoot the shit out living creatures.
branford
(4,462 posts)Heck, your tone appears that you not only want gun control, but limits on hunting.
Good luck with that.
Plucketeer
(12,882 posts)Hafta prove their dominion over lesser creatures. Too damned cowardly to wrestle and dispatch them, one on one. Cryin' shame animals can't be armed and afforded stand your ground protection.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)those like you.
Anyone who shoots the shit out of wild game is doing it wrong, it should be one shot, one kill.
secondvariety
(1,245 posts)Lol. Like I give a shit what hunters think about me or "my type". You didn't notice I used the word "cheaply" when discussing hunting rounds.
quadrature
(2,049 posts)NickB79
(19,258 posts)The reason lead works so well is that it deforms readily on impact, and that it's greater density means it carries energy further, making lead bullets hit harder at longer range. Both translate into more humane hunting, as the animal dies faster from it's wounds. There are all-copper bullets available that do expand, and are far better than steel bullets, but are also far more expensive to shoot with.
The only hunters who use steel are those hunting waterfowl with shotguns, and they typically limit their ranges to less than 50 yards.
Even the military surplus steel-core or steel-jacketed ammo still available here still uses mostly lead in it's construction.
quadrature
(2,049 posts)other situations would benefit from steel
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)They are too hard to form to the rifling well. But there are non lead alternative alloys that work.
But some weapons really NEED lead bullets. I shoot some antique guns, and they require relatively soft lead bullets.
quadrature
(2,049 posts)the law against steel
hack89
(39,171 posts)Steel core bullets are sometimes classified as armor piercing.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)NickB79
(19,258 posts)The rifle's steel-jacketed 5.54x39 mm ammunition likely triggered a fire that burned more than 1,600 acres and cost $33,000 to knock down, according to Jason Curry, a fire investigator with the Utah Division of Forestry.
For years, investigators have suspected ricocheting bullet fragments ignite fires, after an impact with a hard surface converts the round's kinetic energy into searing heat. But there was little scientific basis for understanding how until now. Research forester Mark Finney decided to develop the science after gunfire was implicated in numerous Utah fires last year.
A member of the U.S. Forest Service's Missoula Fire Sciences Laboratory, Finney assembled a team that demonstrated copper and steel ammunition reliably ignite fine, dried fuels.
ileus
(15,396 posts)Hopefully over the next 5 days I can cast a bunch of Jig heads and a few months worth of 9mm's.
AndyTiedye
(23,500 posts)Boxerfan
(2,533 posts)I am a metal detectorist...
I have pulled bullets from the ground that are well over 100 years old & many large pieces of lead. They all have an oxidized coating & do not leach toxicity to nearby soil.
The danger in lead is when it is ingested or in particulate form. When a gun is fired there is a problematic residue of lead dust. Firing ranges need very heavy ventilation & I believe it is required by law. Small lead shot can be ingested by animals or humans & poisonous.
But I find larger pieces & bullets all the time that are of no danger to anyone if not disturbed or handled improperly.
vkkv
(3,384 posts)In California, but in the U.S. in general.
From 2012.
No state typifies the evolving role of fish and wildlife agencies more than California, where theres been a precipitous drop in hunting license sales over the last three decades and practices like trophy hunting are alien to the vast majority of the electorate. There were only 268,000 licensed hunters last year in a state with 38 million people―less than 1 percent of the states population.
http://blog.humanesociety.org/wayne/2012/02/ca-mountain-lion-killing.html
AND:
The number of gun deer hunting licenses sold to Wisconsin residents declined from 644, 991 in 2000 to 602,791 in 2010. This is a decline of 6.5% in ten years, despite the fact that 10 and 11 year old hunters were added for the first time in 2009 and 2010. Declines have been most stark among males age 25-44, who have (in the recent past) hunted at high rates and killed a large number of deer.
Projections of future hunters suggest that the male gun hunter population will decline more dramatically over the next ten to twenty years. We provide three future scenarios for male gun deer hunters using two different methodological approaches and making different assumptions about future participation rates and how they will vary by age and cohort. Overall, the models suggest that in 2020, the number of male gun hunters will drop to about 480,000 (compared to 549,505 in 2010). If current patterns continue, the number could drop to 400,000 or fewer by 2030.
http://www.huntersnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/APL_hunters2011_web.pdf
branford
(4,462 posts)People eat and enjoy meat, and in America, that does not appear to be demonstrably declining despite the increasing costs.
Hunting is an inexpensive way to provide organic meat to one's family for some time. It's not like the meat at the supermarket is provided by faeries, and industrial meat production is certainly not popular on DU. Although I don't hunt (not much to hunt in Manhattan!), both as a means of provision and cultural institution in many parts of the country, I and most Americans find nothing wrong with the practice, particularly since it is regulated without much controversy and hunters and licenses provide a great deal of revenue for conservation efforts.
ileus
(15,396 posts)I calculate each pound of processed wild meat to be somewhere in the range of 100 bucks.
Only thing more expensive is the fish we catch....Every fist is about 5 bucks and we never keep one. Catch 100's maybe a thousand a year never keep one.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)How exactly are you calculating that?
NickB79
(19,258 posts)But seriously, you can get into hunting for under $500 total (gun, ammo, scope, clothing, misc. equipment, license, etc) if you realize you don't need the newest, shiniest gadgets on the market.
A single-shot Rossi or NEF rifle, mil-surp. Mosin Nagant, or single-shot shotgun will set you back less than $200. If you step up to a pump-action shotgun, you can get a Mossberg 2-barrel combo that will allow you to hunt both waterfowl and deer for under $300. A basic 4X or 3-9X scope and a few boxes of generic softpoint ammo will set you back another $100.
And the great thing is that, once you buy the hardware, it lasts for years. The guns should last generations if well-cared for.
The butchers around here charge a couple dollars a pound for processing a deer, and if you are moderately skilled with a knife you can do the butchering in your garage or backyard. You can then turn steak into hamburger with a decent food processor if you feel like it: http://www.thekitchn.com/how-to-grind-your-own-meat-in-134272
Me? I like a more relaxed hunting experience, where I can stroll through the woods on nice days, so I hunt small game with a $100 pellet rifle from Walmart: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Ruger-Blackhawk-Elite/27678724
Amazingly accurate and surprisingly lethal on rabbits and squirrel out to 40 yards with headshots, ammo is everywhere and costs under $10/500 pellets. With a 6-mo hunting season and very generous bag limits, you can bag a lot of meat for not much money.
vkkv
(3,384 posts)Less hunters, less lead toxins in the enironment.
benEzra
(12,148 posts)Target shooters account for the overwhelming majority of the 14-20 billion rounds of ammunition sold annually, and most of that is recycled. Only about 1 in 5 gun owners is a hunter, and many/most hunters also own nonhunting guns. Also, by its nature, target shooting consumes a lot more ammunition than hunting does.
The big problem is that there are no substitutes for lead in handgun and small/intermediate-caliber rifle ammunition that aren't either banned by Federal law (copper, tungsten, steel, bronze, etc. are considered armor piercing, as are most potential lead substitutes), impractical (bismuth, aluminum, gold, silver), or toxic. Back in the 1980s, a lot of recreational target ammunition used a mild steel core, but gun control activists got that banned in 1989 and 1994, as I recall. There is also no good substitute for lead styphnate based primers (the percussion cap that initiates ignition; alternatives so far are unreliable). So a ban on lead ammunition would be a ban on most ammunition, and a functional ban on most guns.
If you want to reduce the use of lead-core ammunition in target shooting, repeal the law against "armor-piercing" non-lead ammunition, and come up with an inexpensive and abundant alloy that approximates the softness, density, and ductility of lead for those uses that require it.
madville
(7,412 posts)They are giving us more doe days here this year, and the buck limit is two a day. Hunters are an essential part of population control since there aren't any natural predators for adult deer here. A friend of mine archery deer hunts in Atlanta residential areas because the numbers have exploded.
NickB79
(19,258 posts)Hunting gives an economic incentive for farmers to leave land fallow, benefiting wildlife.
Reduce the money hunters are putting into conservation programs, and you see forests clearcut and grasslands plowed up for corn and soy.
I get to see it every year: farmers expanding their fields every spring with chainsaws and bulldozers, and burning the brushpiles every fall
"Fortunately" indeed, if your goal is to wipe out the remaining wildlife we have
sir pball
(4,758 posts)Nothing to do with environmentalism, and everything to do with squeezing every last bit of accuracy and performance from a given load.
I guess cost is an issue, but then again given what I have invested in the firearms themselves, the premium of TSX/GMX/GS-SP isn't so bad.
True Blue Door
(2,969 posts)so lead must be safe for use in bullets.