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Metaphorical

(1,603 posts)
Fri Jul 1, 2022, 01:35 AM Jul 2022

The Coming Uncivil War

Twenty five years ago, I predicted that the United States will have become two or more countries by 2040. Today, I'm convinced that it will happen sooner than that.

The Supreme Court is systematically dismantling the progressive agenda and making no excuses about it. Gerrymandering is next up in the queue, which will be followed by every red state locking in draconian maps. Civil rights of all sorts will soon follow. Should, by some miracle, the House and Senate stay in Democratic hands in 2022, you will see defeated Republicans refusing to accept the results of even seemingly clear elections. If Republicans do manage to take the House and Senate, you'll see kangaroo courts attempting to impeach and remove Biden and Harris within days of being sworn in. By 2024, it will not matter whether Trump is running or not - the coup will have been successful.

Most people in the US think about Civil War in the context of the American Civil War of 1861-1865, with states breaking away from the Union, creating a separate country, fielding armies with uniforms, guns, and cannons. What most people (especially those unfamiliar with history) do not understand is how anomalous that war really was, that it was a reflection of 19th century social and warfare conventions.

I believe that we are actually in an Uncivil War, denoted by coup attempts, increasing polarization, authoritarianism vs democratic structures, fundamentalism, and radicalism. It becomes feasible when one party no longer has any interest in following any rules but its own, and who actively subvert the rule of law in favor of the rule of might (in this case, financial, rather than physical, might). The problem that Democrats face ultimately is that almost by definition are the Party of Law - they have to follow the rules, even when those rules are being turned against them, or they lose any real authority that they may have.

My expectation is that, as the Republicans continue into overreach territory, their actions are going to be seen as unpalatable to a larger and larger cross-section of the electorate. There will be a counter-backlash, and when that happens, they will lack the numbers to keep hold of the government. At that point, I think at that point that you'll see a formal break and secession, more than likely starting with Texas.

I've heard (and made) a number of arguments about why individual secession is likely to fail. Secession is illegal, of course, but there's a paradox there - once you have seceded, you are no longer a part of the political structure. In places like Texas, there is a heavy US military presence, but the question comes down to whether the commanding officers for enough bases can be subverted - the right bribes to the right generals could very easily pay off handsomely. Texas is purple, but the Texas political structure is quite red. Yes, Texas would lose key companies and people if they chose to secede, but Texas would also take with it Louisianna, Oklahoma, Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, Kansas, possibly Arkansas and Missouri, and perhaps even as far north as Ohio, West Virginia, North Carolina, Virginia, Indiana, Iowa, Wyoming, and North and South Dakota. Collectively, these states account for about 42 percent of the population, but they also separate East from West.

Would a plebiscite of the people vote to secede in each state? Not likely. Would the far right, gerrymandered to hell legislatures? In a heartbeat. In some cases like Virginia, you might even see Northern Virginia break off from Virginia even as West Virginia gets reabsorbed. In this scenario, you end up with resistances, red and blue, forming in their respective states. This doesn't become North against South. It becomes fifty individual battle zones. It becomes clumps of states banding together because the federal authority has been deliberately compromised. and ultimately, it will end up devastating the rural zones even as control devolves from the states to cities along the various highway corridors. This is what "civil" war looks like today.

Such a war would be fought with both flying and tank-like drones, with "liberated" artillery, and with stealth attacks on civilian targets. It might look vaguely like what's happening in Ukraine, but the Russians and the Ukranians are battling with twenty year old technology. It might even go nuclear. In the end, the war won't end with a bang but with a whimper, as war weary states that haven't been bombed into the stone age establish a new, very raw peace.

I hope this nightmare scenarios doesn't happen, but I'm becoming increasingly pessimistic.





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regnaD kciN

(26,044 posts)
1. You're working on the assumption that it will be the red states that secede...
Fri Jul 1, 2022, 01:52 AM
Jul 2022

I would argue that, the way things are going, the right-wing will have sufficiently gerrymandered and rigged the system enough that, from 2024 on out, they'll have an unshakable grip on federal power, control of all three branches of government that can't be overcome by elections. At that point, blue states are going to have to decide whether to submit to a permanent Christofascism or secede. How do you see that playing out?

Actually, it's considerably worse than that. We may talk about red and blue states but, as the maps Republicans like to draw up show, even the bluest states are predominantly red geographically. I live on the west coast, where we're supposedly deep blue, but that really comes down to only the cities of Seattle/Tacoma, Portland, Eugene, San Francisco/Oakland/Berkeley, and Los Angeles. Everywhere else is "purple" suburbs or "red" rural areas...and the latter is where most of the guns are. If we were to secede, it would really only be a handful of isolated urban areas that would separate, and they'd be surrounded by MAGA loyalists.

You describe your "nightmare scenario" as the U.S. splitting into two or more countries by 2040. I'd say that's the optimistic scenario. More possible, to me, is something like the neighbor-killing-neighbor genocide of Rwanda or the Balkans in the 1990s. Except that U.N. or N.A.T.O. forces won't be around to intervene. And, if current trends continue, the "other side" will have all the weapons.

wnylib

(21,487 posts)
3. Neighbor against neighbor is the more likely scenario.
Fri Jul 1, 2022, 03:17 AM
Jul 2022

Open fighting would not be by region.

The polarization is more like rural vs. urban than region vs. region. Rural areas will try to overtake cities. It will be unsafe for people to be in the wrong place for their politics. Deliveries of food, medicines, and other supplies will be difficult.

I hope that it never comes to that because any war is horrific, but a neighbor to neighbor civil war is the worst.

Metaphorical

(1,603 posts)
5. Yes and no
Fri Jul 1, 2022, 04:11 AM
Jul 2022

The rural areas are dying. They are emptying out. People are leaving some of the largest cities, but they are not going to rural areas - they are going to suburbs of smaller cities.

Metaphorical

(1,603 posts)
4. I think we came very close to your first scenario in 2020
Fri Jul 1, 2022, 04:07 AM
Jul 2022

The Covid compacts that appeared in the West and Northeast illustrated that regions were willing to buck the Federal government when it was not in their best interest. This to me is indicative that the glue that holds the country together is finally disintegrating.

I'm actually not that concerned about the right-wing militia types in and of themselves. Keep in mind that behind all of this are deep (mostly corporate) pockets. What they want is the ability to run their businesses with impunity, without paying taxes or being subject to federal oversight. Nazi Germany started out much the same way. The big corporations in Germany (and in the UK and the US doing business in Germany) did not want the oversight of government, and they bankrolled Hitler after his prison term. At the time, his army consisted primarily of Brown Shirts - basically largely rural soldiers and thugs who were poorly trained and lacked any real discipline. With the sponsorship of German banks, industrial corporations, weapons manufacturers and oil refiners, Hitler disbanded the Brown Shirts (and in many cases "disappeared" them when they got too unruly) and then took the most sociopathic and turned them into the SS.

What I see happening here is that you're going to see the rise of corporate security forces, especially once social order begins to degrade and people become hungry. These forces will be militarized, with drones, modern arsenals, and quasi-military training. The most troublesome of the gun nuts will be disappeared. These forces may use the deep rural areas for recruiting, but they will be headquartered in urban centers.

Corporations do not like to admit it, but they cannot exist without stable governments, because without stable governments they do not have a market for their goods and services. I think there is a possibility of Balkanization, but I don't think it's that likely: the Balkan states fell apart primarily because, outside of Tito, they had been primarily separate (and fairly antagonistic) states that had previous been part of the collapse of Ottoman empire in the late 19th and early 20th century (Byron was killed in Balkan fighting in the 1850s - it goes WAY back). The US has long had large regional "nations" that have dictated politics for a long term (see Colin Woodward).

As to the handful of blue and the sea of red: What's notable about the red areas is that they are relatively empty. For instance, in Washington State, 4.3 million people live in the greater Puget Sound area, while the entire state has only 7.1 million people, meaning that there are only 2.8 million people spread out over 80% of the State's lands, with most of the rest in Spokane and Walla Walla. Seattle and environs continues to grow at a rate of 200,000 people a year, while the rest of the state is losing about 80,000 people a year. This is true all up and down the I5 Corridor from Vancouver, BC to San Diego.

Will the West secede? i think if the country becomes too inhospitable, it's a very real possibility. The West Coast is a de facto Pacific Rim Country, and its influence extends throughout the lower Inland West to New Mexico, Nevada, Colorado and Southern Idaho (and increasingly Montana). Additionally, the Rockies, Cascades and Sierra Nevada ranges are actually a fairly formidable set of natural barriers. Utah's still an exception, but the growth of the SLC area is changing the population dynamics there as well.

Ultimately, if a new country was formed from key Western States, I think one of the primary considerations would be to reduce the degree to which land "votes". Right now, it's getting ridiculous - Wyoming has two votes in the Senate while having a population about 1/30th that of California.

wnylib

(21,487 posts)
9. In post WWI Germany, there were many militias.
Fri Jul 1, 2022, 08:01 AM
Jul 2022

They were not just undisciplined, rural thugs. They were battle experienced soldiers. When the Kaiser abdicated and a new government was being formed, the nation was in chaos. The militias were "law and order" agencies that many people welcomed.

Most of them disbanded in the 1920s as the nation, with its new government, stabilized socially and financially. Hitler and his followers remained as a militia because he had political ambition driving him. The conservative industrialists in Germany, like the Thyssens, backed Hitler because they disliked the liberal government.

UK and US corporations supported Hitler because there was money to make in rearming Germany, and because the monied people behind those corporations were authoritarian. There was also economic opportunity in breaking up the old European empires and opening up new markets through war initiated by an angry, industrialized nation.

The purpose of the Senate composition is to balance power between states with sparse and heavy populations. The House gives representation by numbers.



3Hotdogs

(12,391 posts)
6. Given my age, I will be a permanent, under ground resident of New Jersey when that happens.
Fri Jul 1, 2022, 07:01 AM
Jul 2022

And I agree that it will in one form or another.

3Hotdogs

(12,391 posts)
7. In your list of states, you forgot Nebraska, Utah, Idaho, Indiana and New Hampshire.
Fri Jul 1, 2022, 07:09 AM
Jul 2022

Most of the people in those states don't think too good either. Alls they need is 33 states to call a Constitutional Convention and they don't have to fire a shot.

But then Charles Koch and the other right wing billionaires have to figure out how to control the assholes he allowed to take over.

 

Dysfunctional

(452 posts)
8. More chance of the US and other countries breaking up due to climate change.
Fri Jul 1, 2022, 07:48 AM
Jul 2022

Fighting over agricultural land and water.

Brenda

(1,060 posts)
10. Absolutely Correct!
Fri Jul 1, 2022, 08:40 AM
Jul 2022

People are already experiencing chaos by climate change wreaking havoc on multiple fronts. They will be moving in huge numbers to where there is water and affordable housing/jobs. (Away from the west and coastlines.)

Lots of "Blue" people are already moving into "Red" areas. The whole damn country is a purple drought/flood ridden mess!

Metaphorical

(1,603 posts)
11. Climate change is a stressor
Fri Jul 1, 2022, 09:29 AM
Jul 2022

but its impact on US migration patterns to date is minimal. THAT changes in the 2050 range, as much of the Southeast and inland Southwest becomes uninhabitable.

Brenda

(1,060 posts)
12. Wow, I totally disagree.
Fri Jul 1, 2022, 09:35 AM
Jul 2022

You need to read The Uninhabitable Earth. The lakes and aquifers are drying up at an accelerated rate out west and the great migration will happen way before 2050, like in 5-10 years, tops.

In the short term the inland Southeast and Upper Midwest is exactly where people will be moving to.

Climate change is not a stressor...it's the other way around. It is the root cause of every problem we face right now.

duckworth969

(600 posts)
13. your essay is well-written, here are my reflections...
Fri Jul 1, 2022, 12:28 PM
Jul 2022

First, I agree that secession is possible. One state at a time, beginning with Texas, seems plausible. But more likely the secessionist tendencies of many states in the South will cause them to join in, i.e. Mississippi and the like. I am much less sure that the number of states that choose secession is as high as you posit. Situation is far too complex to predict how the dominoes will fall. Much will depend on how swiftly the Union reacts to states moving to secede.

Second, I think the Repub state legislatures are poised to move quickly if they need to, on any legislative front. It remains to be seen how regional and national economic pressures play out in their decision making in the heat of the moment.

Finally, I think it’s time for the country to divide into autonomous regions. We are too large and diverse to continue as one nation. Dividing up amicably is of course desirable. But power splits of the size we are discussing are rarely bloodless. One of my biggest concerns is that foreign actors getting a major foothold in the situation could turn our land into a battlefield for scores of years.

So, yeah, it’s a mess. And at the moment, it’s all so wearying, I can’t think or see a path forward.

Response to Metaphorical (Original post)

lees1975

(3,861 posts)
15. I don't think that kind of fracture would last very long.
Fri Jul 1, 2022, 09:49 PM
Jul 2022

Russia and China would move in a heartbeat, and divide up the spoils like they've been wanting to do since World War 2.

Celerity

(43,413 posts)
16. Blue State secession is more likely than Red State secession IMHO.
Fri Jul 8, 2022, 05:59 AM
Jul 2022

The Supreme Court will likely make a huge play to roll back most civil rights gained since Brown v Board, including Brown itself.

The also may well declare foetal personhood from conception, which instantly bans all abortions nationwide, perhaps even those that save the life of the mother (the most radical of forced birthers take that position, that if the foetus can live, then the mother should die, given a truly either/or choice). Many of the Blue States will not obey.

If the Rethugs win back both chambers of Congress in 2022, retain them in 2024, and also take back the POTUS in 2024, the probability for kinetic civil war is vastly increased.

If the now tripartite (Judicial, Legislative, Executive) empowered Rethugs try to nationalise the christofascism via laws mandating all 50 states come to heel (and the RWNJ-captured SCOTUS backs them up), the nation comes to fork in the road with 2 main options:

1. The Rethugs can try and make the Blue States bend the knee and obey all the new christofash laws via multivariate injections of force, which will lead to kinetic violence and secessionist movements running riot (justly so IMHO, btw) in many of the Blue States.

2. The Rethugs do not invoke force and the Blue States do not move under the christofash whip hand, they do not comply, which then instantly opens the door to Red States doing the same with federal laws/regs THEY disagree with. Chaos ensues again.

For bonus accelerationist possible factors to the above, I offer these two:

1. The Rethugs win the Senate back in 2022 (or anytime in the future whilst there is a Dem POTUS) and then, if and when a SCOTUS opening occurs, they never again give a Democratic President's nominee a vote, ever, unless they get to chose the nominee (who will be a christofascist of course).

2. A much more explosive and immediate impact possibility, one that will, almost for sure lead to secessionist attempts by the Blue States. In 2024 the Dem POTUS candidate wins the Electoral College, BUT enough States who have Rethug control (yet voted for the Dem) override the popular vote and send their official slate of Electors containing Rethug electors only.

The SCOTUS backs this up, the election is then tossed into the Rethug controlled House and Rethug controlled Senate, who proceed to elect, respectively, the Rethug POTUS (via the House delegations voting, all 50 states get one vote, and we have no chance from stopping the Rethugs from having at least 26 delegations under control, which is the minimum needed for the win, our last hope to pull them to 25 was Florida in 2020, but we actually lost seats, and the now tied States do not pull the 26 number down even if we miraculously some where to win them) and VPOTUS (via the Senate's vote).

If THAT (number 2, right above) happens, dog help the Union come 2025.

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