Ultranationalists march in Kiev Jan 2

[newthinking]

[stonecutter357]

1. rt

[uhnope]

3. +1

[newthinking]

12. see my response below

[sabrina 1]

8. Neo Nazis are not funny to most people. Though John McCain and sadly,

Dem Sen Murphy saw fit to pose for photos with the leader of Ukr's neo nazi, far right party before the coup.

I am hoping they had no idea who they were posing with, however neither has made any statement about those photos, despite the press reports from all over the world as to who they were supporting.

I am sure you are not laughing at the fact that the US engages with some of the world's worst characters, and has for a long time, when it suits them.

I am hoping those policies are changed before we become who we associate with.

See some of the dictatorships we support, Bahrain, Uzbekistan, Uganda, Saudi Arabia, among so many others.

I am glad however that these days these alliances are not kept secret anymore. Thanks to our access to so many other news sources.

[KoKo]

14. +1

[newthinking]

11. it's video coverage without commentary.

If that is all it takes to close your mind you might as well stick with entertainment magazine.

If calling footage itself propaganda is in vogue we truly have entered an Orwellian state of mind.

PS. I used to avoid rt or rptly as a source (there are other progressive sites reporting more in depth than the mainstream and it is not necessary to use Russian sources), but hell, the old cold warriors and red baiters here throw out so much nasty dishonest shit I figured why bother. If rt is reporting a story more in depth or that is not covered by mainstream it deserves posting, and the fact it agitates narrow minded people,some who are outright bigots, well that just adds to the satisfaction. Lol

[KoKo]

15. Good Points.....n/t

[another_liberal]

2. More like: "Fascists march in Kiev Jan. 2."

After all, that is what the members of these groups call themselves.

[truth2power]

4. newthinking...

This was posted a couple of times, here, in the past few days, once by me and once by another DUer. Still, it bears repeating.

As you will notice, information about the US Govt. support of neo-Nazis in Kiev must be suppressed, at all costs. Those who are tasked with keeping all this on the down-low must be working night and day. I feel empathy for the difficult job they must have.

Don't be discouraged if this thread sinks like a rock. Not everyone is devoid of critical thinking. Some will be unimpressed by little laughing smilies and will resolve to go poking around the internet in search of the facts.

Here's one link: https://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/10/nyt-discovers-ukraines-neo-nazis-at-war/

NYT Discovers Ukraine’s Neo-Nazis at War

August 10, 2014

Exclusive: Throughout the Ukraine crisis, the U.S. State Department and mainstream media have downplayed the role of neo-Nazis in the U.S.-backed Kiev regime, an inconvenient truth that is surfacing again as right-wing storm troopers fly neo-Nazi banners as they attack in the east, Robert Parry reports.

By Robert Parry

* * *

Wait for it...."I don't care what Robert Parry thinks." *sigh*

[zeemike]

5. Their job is not that difficult.

Takes just seconds to post the Rollie polly laughing guy...and if comments are necessary then just use the canned response provided.

[snappyturtle]

6. +1 nt

[uhnope]

7. Consortium News has already been debunked on DU--sorry

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=854333
but please keep citing your echo-chamber fake news websites

[freshwest]

9. Too many media consumers lost me with this one, rated Pants On Fire:

President Barack Obama spent "$5 billion paying Ukrainians to riot and dismantle their democratically elected government."



Facebook posts on Wednesday, March 19th, 2014 in a Facebook meme

The United States spent $5 billion on Ukraine anti-government riots

It’s a conspiracy with mainstream crossover: The United States bankrolled the bloody political uprising in Ukraine...

The Roots:

Victoria Neuland's words at a time when it garnered scant media attention:

...made clear the United States supported the protesters’ fight and spoke of how she met with Yanukovych, pressing him to end the pushback from Ukrainian security forces because it is "absolutely impermissible in a European state, in a democratic state..."

"Since Ukraine's independence in 1991, the United States has supported Ukrainians as they build democratic skills and institutions, as they promote civic participation and good governance, all of which are preconditions for Ukraine to achieve its European aspirations," she said. "We have invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic Ukraine."

The Truth:

"The insinuation that the United States incited the people of Ukraine to riot or rebel is patently false," said Nicole Thompson, a State Department spokeswoman.

Since 1992, the government has spent about $5.1 billion to support democracy-building programs in Ukraine, Thompson said, with money flowing mostly from the Department of State via U.S. Agency for International Development, as well as the departments of Defense, Energy, Agriculture and others. The United States does this with hundreds of other countries.

About $2.4 billion went to programs promoting peace and security, which could include military assistance, border security, human trafficking issues, international narcotics abatement and law enforcement interdiction, Thompson said. More money went to categories with the objectives of "governing justly and democratically" ($800 million), "investing in people" ($400 million), economic growth ($1.1 billion), and humanitarian assistance ($300 million)...

...spent over more than 20 years.

Yanukovych was elected in 2010. So any connection between the protests and the $5 billion is inaccurate.

And Obama was elected in 2008, so any connection between $5 billion and Obama also is inaccurate.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/mar/19/facebook-posts/united-states-spent-5-billion-ukraine-anti-governm/

The truth does not fit the world view being promoted by conspiracy theorists. A post that went into the Neuland hatred was alerted by a DUer who described the source material:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014787623#post10

I think those who believe in all of the spin offs to the Russia Today story that initiated this, per the article, should give the article that was linked here a good look. It has all the CT memes. And the end result is not at all pretty.

It will continue to work on a populace that maintains a willful ignorance, all the better to attack those doing the work of governments acting together in peaceful, but less public ways.

War talk, dirty laundry and rumor is exciting. They're cheap thrills that cost nothing except civil society.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024820686#post116

Parry and the rest of the paid by the word media aiming to titillate itching ears will never get out of that deep hole, they'll keep on digging as long as bucks are waved in front of their faces. Like Faux Noise, but with a twist.

[uhnope]

10. thanks. I will add "Michael Collins"

or whatever his real name is, to http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026041979

[freshwest]

17. And I've added a snarker (not you) to my list.

7. Honor other people's thoughts, wishes and words. Never interrupt another or mock or rudely mimic them. Allow each person the right to personal expression.

~ Native American Code of Ethics

No one here is 'trying.' A member can express their view on public figures and matters. Snarking is not honoring that right. If I wanted to go the low road, I'd post at a Tea Party site, it's their modus operandi. I'll see you later, and keep your cool, so you never get personal.

[newthinking]

13. nice try - the orange revolution in 2004 - pres we brought to power's wife was an American neo-con

There are so many links and so much proof it makes a person wonder how any democrat who despises the neocons and the Iraq war they lied us into would even attempt to whitewash their work in Ukraine.

I will agree that the 5 billion mentioned involves a mix of programs not necessarily targeting 'regime change'. But focusing on that figure fails to include many other parts of the effort, such as the work of the international republican institute.

Hell, in the first "maidan", yushenko (the man brought to power) was married to an American neo-con and they both were involved with neo-con institutes. The links are patently obvious to all except the mainstream media.


To understand the events in Ukraine you must first understand the "Orange Revolution", the first "maidan", and it's neo-con connections

See this link
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025459029

[KoKo]

16. Good Resource Links there....

[uhnope]

18. please spare us the CT. The neocons in Eastern Europe are Putin and his regime

oh and thanks for this awesome link http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=10108&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported

[newthinking]

20. nothing ct about the republican institute's work and Yushenko's wife's work history

This is simply factual history.

[reorg]

21. You might want to rework this post

for future purposes. First, in order to avoid the accusation of spamming, an introduction would be nice why you consider your observations relevant, if not to the OP then at least to the post you reply to.

Second, the name is 'Nuland', not Neuland, and "this" wasn't "initiated by RT" at all.

Third, when you read 'the United States spent $5 billion on Ukraine' it doesn't mean 'Obama spent ...' - even though he may be ultimately responsible for the last 5 or 6 years of government spending, which is to say presumably for more than one billion. Ms Nuland stated that the US have spent more than 5 billion 'to assist Ukraine in these and other goals', namely to: 'build democratic skills and institutions, as they promote civic participation and good governance, all of which are preconditions for Ukraine to achieve its European aspirations'. So what, you may say, aren't we role models in this regard? Don't we have a super duper democracy with all that stuff and shouldn't we share that experience with the dumb little Ukrainians who wouldn't even know what "civic participation" or 'good governance' means in the first place? Perhaps the US MUST help in this regard, since no other country is doing it? While Germany and Sweden, for instance, spend quite some money for technical cooperation with Ukraine in other fields, the strong focus for the US in Ukraine is what they file under 'Democracy, Human Rights and Governance':

'Civil society is critical for sustaining democracy in Ukraine. USAID is helping to develop the capacity of non-governmental organizations to have an impact on government policy and decision-making. Through support to Ukraine’s independent media, USAID is enhancing journalistic professionalism, ethics and monitoring capabilities ...'

It is interesting to look further into how USAID does assist in this regard:

Media Development
The U-Media Project has also made a concerted effort to conduct programming that reaches the conflict areas in Donbas, where events are presenting an increasing challenge for Ukraine’s political transition and democratic future. In the lead-up to the presidential and parliamentary elections, the U-Media Project has sought to harness the energy of EuroMaidan ...

Political Process Programs in Ukraine
The training increases the ability of parties to communicate with voters and civic groups, helps them develop issue-based platforms, and builds closer ties to citizens, while developing the skills of NGOs and activists for advocacy and engagement with political actors.

http://www.usaid.gov/where-we-work/europe-and-eurasia/ukraine/democracy-human-rights-and-governance

And then there are other, so-called non-governmental agencies spending money on programs in similar fields, such as the NED, plus private individuals and their foundations.

All of this, goes the theory, may have some kind of influence on the political direction a country takes and also on the character of 'civic participation'.

How Does a Colored Revolution Work?

The recipe is always the same. Student and youth movements lead the way with a fresh face, attracting others to join in as though it were the fashion, the cool thing to do. There's always a logo, a color, a marketing strategy. In Serbia, the group OTPOR, which led the overthrow of Slobodan Milosevic, hit the streets with t-shirts, posters and flags boasting a fist in black and white, their symbol of resistance. In Ukraine, the logo remained the same, but the color changed to orange. In Georgia, it was a rose-colored fist, and in Venezuela, instead of the closed fist, the hands are open, in black and white, to add a little variety.

Colored revolutions always occur in a nation with strategic, natural resources: gas, oil, military bases and geopolitical interests. And they also always take place in countries with socialist-leaning, anti-imperialist governments. The movements promoted by US agencies in those countries are generally anti-communist, anti-socialist, pro-capitalist and pro-imperialist.

Protests and destabilization actions are always planned around an electoral campaign and process, to raise tensions and questions of potential fraud, and to discredit the elections in the case of a loss for the opposition, which is generally the case. The same agencies are always present, funding, training and advising: USAID, NED, IRI, NDI, Freedom House, AEI and ICNC. The latter two pride themselves on the expert training and capacitation of youth movements to encourage "non violent" change. ...

http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2010/golinger060210.html

[reorg]

22. You must have confused your bookmarks

since the thread behind your link debunks something else, the false claim that a 'rebel commander' said he 'knew' they had Buks when in fact he said the exact opposite.

Here is a short description of what Bandera stands for from another source:

Historian Karel Berkhoff, among others, has shown that Bandera, his deputies, and the Nazis shared a key obsession, namely the notion that the Jews in Ukraine were behind Communism and Stalinist imperialism and must be destroyed. “The Jews of the Soviet Union,” read a Banderist statement, “are the most loyal supporters of the Bolshevik Regime and the vanguard of Muscovite imperialism in the Ukraine.” When the Germans invaded the USSR in June 1941 and captured the East Galician capital of Lvov, Bandera’s lieutenants issued a declaration of independence in his name. They further promised to work closely with Hitler, then helped to launch a pogrom that killed four thousand Lvov Jews in a few days, using weapons ranging from guns to metal poles. “We will lay your heads at Hitler’s feet,” a Banderist pamphlet proclaimed to Ukrainian Jews.

The Germans intended to keep Ukraine for themselves. They arrested Bandera for his intransigence on the issue of independence, but released him in 1944 when it appeared that his popularity with Ukrainians might help stem the Soviet advance. But whatever their disappointment with the Germans, the Banderists never disagreed with their Jewish policy in Ukraine, which eventually killed over 1.5 million Ukrainian Jews.

http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/122778

[uhnope]

23. get a clue. It plainly scoffs at the fake news site's founder

Consortium News makes RT look reputable

http://louisproyect.org/2014/08/09/robert-parry-up-to-his-old-tricks/

and

http://louisproyect.org/2014/07/20/robert-parrys-folly/

Like Walter Duranty who justified Stalin’s policies to NY Times readers in the 1930s, we see Parry, Seymour Hersh and Robert Fisk using journalistic tricks of the trade to make Putin seem like an innocent victim of a worldwide conspiracy involving the CIA, NATO, George Soros-type NGO’s, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, NY Times op-ed writers, and other miscreants bent on… Bent on what exactly?

[reorg]

26. If by "it" you mean the false Reuters report

which was discussed in the thread you linked to, I fail to see the connection.

So, in another attempt to deflect from the OP you now cite "louisproyect.org", whoever that is. I've searched this site for articles on Bandera fascism in Ukraine, which the owner seems keen to belittle, and stumbled across this hilarious tidbit in an article on Stephen F. Cohen:

Ever since the crisis in the Ukraine broke out, Stephen F. Cohen has been campaigning on behalf of a Kremlin that he warns is being unfairly demonized by the West as part of an effort to start a new Cold War. Some of his arguments can only be described as ludicrous. For example: “That the Ukraine crisis was instigated by the West’s attempt, last November, to smuggle the former Soviet republic into NATO.” In fact, despite the millions of words to this effect from the pro-Putin left, this is what the new foreign minister stated on March 29th: ...

http://louisproyect.org/category/fascism/page/2/

Never mind what the new foreign minister stated at the time, I wonder whether it was to spite the "pro-Putin" left - or maybe "Louis Proyect"? - when the Ukrainian parliament finally decided to take the predicted course ...

The Parliament, firmly controlled by a pro-Western majority, voted overwhelmingly, 303 to 8, to rescind a policy of “nonalignment” and to instead pursue closer military and strategic ties with the West. ...

The revised law, which was a priority of President Petro O. Poroshenko, requires Ukraine to “deepen cooperation with NATO in order to achieve the criteria required for membership in this organization.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/24/world/europe/ukraine-parliament-nato-vote.html

[newthinking]

19. what is even more frightening - read up on links to maha ravi

Last edited Mon Jan 5, 2015, 04:39 PM - Edit history (1)

And other religious features of the movements, some semi-messianic, rising out of this mess.

What is going on in Ukraine right now is incredibly important, but information is being muted by a combination of fascist control of the media there and the geopolitical interest that do not want bad press to get out.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_neopaganism

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/when-tryzub-meets-swastika-846.html

[uhnope]

24. pretty funny that any Putin defender would complain about something else "semi-messianic"

Do Some Russians Think Vladimir Putin Is God?
At a controversial lecture in Moscow on Sunday, Dmitry Enteo, a well-known radical Russian Orthodox activist, wondered whether the Russian president was divine

http://www.vocativ.com/world/russia/people-think-putin-is-a-god/

[newthinking]

25. swoosh...

Sorry. In effective deflection. I don't think in "narrow minded red-baiting" terms.

I am sure the person I was REPLYING to (not you), can make their own assessment.

[uhnope]

27. the usual avoidance. Here's more about the semi-messianic Putin worship

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017235745

Then there's this:

Top Kremlin aide says Putin is God's gift to Russia

http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/07/08/idINIndia-58163920110708

Watch the girls singing the song about wanting a man like Putin. Look at the religious-like meetings to praise Dear Leader.