I need DU help to solve a (possible fraud) mystery

[dixiegrrrrl]

We go to the grocery store once a week, same day of week. get a load of groceries, spend about 140.00.
Pay with debit card, get a few bucks back. Regular as clockwork.

Come home, and I enter the receipt amount into the $$$ program on the computer, same day so I won't forget/lose receipt, whatever.
Bank statement comes middle of month, I balance the account.

This time I happened to notice a grocery store debit, on the same day, for TWO withdrawals. One was in amount I had entered, the other, 150.00, no receipt for.
I know for a fact it wasn't our shopping.

called the store, mentioned possible fraud, they instantly checked their till records, and said that sale was not in their records. Hmmm..

called the bank, told them...store,dates, no record at store.

They said to come in, and immediately said they would re-issue new card, and put the amount back into our account. ( good local bank).
So problem correctly solved.

except...WHO took the 150.00? How did it end up being on our statement when it did not show on the store totals?
the bank seemed not all that surprised, they had instant response, and they are not talking. Which I can understand for obvious reasons, that they don't wanna share security info.

But...any dear DU Sherlocks....who got the money, and how?....

[Haggard Celine]

1. People have these machines nowadays

that can read your card while just walking past you in the store. I wouldn’t doubt if it wasn’t a situation like that.

[dixiegrrrrl]

3. UPDATED TO CONFIRM

It was the newer chip type that is supposed to eliminate card reader hacks...no slimming type card.

[bucolic_frolic]

4. Somewhere I read advice not to have debit cards

Put everything on a credit card. The CC company backs you up and no one can debit your account without your knowledge.

[dixiegrrrrl]

5. Assuming they somehow got the number

the debit charge showed as the store sale, but the store sez their records show NO sale for that amount, for that number, for that day.

So how did the debit charge end up on the bank statement...that tis the mystery.

[bucolic_frolic]

7. So the origin of the false charges are outside the store

in electronic banking somewhere. Hmmm. I would be visiting the bank and changing account numbers, debit card numbers, passwords, etc. The bank may not know and/or may not tell. And I do recall that the article I read said to keep bank accounts hooked up to debit cards small, and not linked to other accounts. Easier said than done today, I know.

There have been cases where accounts were emptied by fraudulent debit card charges. My bank told me to login to my account every day. As if there's nothing else to do.

[dixiegrrrrl]

15. FDIC deals with damages/refunds

I refuse to bank online, so that is one problem prevented.
We always use cash or debit in town, credit cards only at reputable online places.

If it happens again, me and the bank manager are gonna be meeting, for sure.

I worry about people like my 86 y/o neighbor who has all her bills paid online thru A big bank. She's a widow and never handled a lot of the money decisions.
Wondering how many times this has happened to others.

It could be something as simple as a data entry goof....sez the optimist in me.

[stopdiggin]

6. but how is the charge 'spoofed' to the grocery store

account? And, as the poster asks, who is the bank sending $150 to? (if not the store - then isn't somebody a little bit interested in what account the money is flowing into?)

[dixiegrrrrl]

14. the bank was very tight lipped.

I can see why, tho. Who wants customers talking about their debit cards being ripped off?



the one saving grace was...is....local community in a small town, so it is easy to get problems fixed in the community.

still, a mystery as to WHO and HOW...

[dixiegrrrrl]

19. You just made me think

who IS the bank sending $150 to?

The store simply sends the receipt totals to the bank, then collects the money owed for the card charges. It's automatic,computerized.

I'm thinking maybe the store chain might be getting hacked. too many reports like mine to the bank for the same date/area would be showing up at the bank's end. The bank obviously has to be talking with the store about the reports, alerting them.

I guess a smart hacker could be adding the fake charge into the computer code that goes to the bank, the bank
pays it, the hacker can change the amount that goes back to the store, so both places see the same amount going
in and out, and the fake amount disappears into another account somewhere.
We don't know if a few grand didn't show up in hundreds of account statements, all for the same date, most weren't caught perhaps.
Has to be a lot of money involved in a lot of hacks in a lot of places tho. Otherwise not worth it.

A hacker could be hitting one place, then moving on to another store in the chain, It would take some time for all the stores to realize the problem.

[Irish_Dem]

8. Similar thing happened to me, and took a while to figure out the scam.

Same situation. I think what happened is that the customer ahead of me paid with a gift card or debit card with hardly any money on it. Leaving a balance on the credit card machine. Somehow I ended up paying for that person's order.

It was a busy day at the store, new clerk, and the guy ahead of me was distracting her as he paid. He quickly left the store after he paid.

That is my theory. I suppose it could be some sort of scam by store employees. But I think it was the customer ahead of me who pulled the scam.

[dixiegrrrrl]

12. You made me remember...

Ages ago at the Dollar Store, the tab showed I owed 15.00 for a quilt, I had not made that purchase. Had to go thru the whole "find your manager...wait wait" etc but she disappeared into her office and it turns out she was reviewing video of that checkout.
Turned out to be cashier error, somehow.

[Irish_Dem]

17. $150 is a big error in your recent situation.

But yes possible.

[dixiegrrrrl]

13. Hmmmm....that's a possibility.

Meth has moved into our lil southern village. Lots of small robberies, thefts now. and gunfire, esp. weekends.
Lots of new cashiers, b/c Covid.

[Irish_Dem]

18. Yes exactly. Lots of new, young, inexperienced cashiers.

If a crook wants to run a scam in a store or restaurant, now is the time to do it.

[Tomconroy]

9. Should be reported to the police. It may be happening to others.

[Corgigal]

10. I'm also unsure,

on how it was done. However , the grocery store needs to investigate the checkout person and pull tapes if they have it above the check out station.

You, for next week, if they are still at the store..do not use that worker.

[stopdiggin]

20. but the charge is showing up as the grocery store

that means the bank is sending (or thinks they are sending) $150 to that account. Please explain how you think the cashier is going to be able to pocket that 150 - or somehow divert it to another account that they control?

(I think people are equating this to the old stories about wait staff, or hospitality workers running bogus charges on a card. But that only works if the business owner is in on the scam - and is willing to divvy up the proceeds - otherwise those bogus charges are just going straight in to the bar/hotel/ski lodge account. No help to the waitress or cashier at all.)

[Laura PourMeADrink]

22. Thought OP said there were two $150 charges?, one valid

one not... Both at grocery store X. Both debited to OPs accts.

That means:
1) cashier out of balance since they didn't give out that $150 in cash,

or 2) the cashier pocketed the $150 since they weren't out of balance.

Or 3) The second $150 never went into the cashiers totals thus not creating an out of balance situation. In that case the grocery store overall should be out of balance with the bank.

No one likely to pursue a small amount like that. So just written off. My guess is a glitch in the machine software that duplicated $150 transaction.

[stopdiggin]

23. the grocery store did not show

any ring up for $150. Did show a transaction for the correct amount of OP's purchase (but not 150). I can see the scenario that you describe - but this situation (the erroneous $150 charge) seems to have nothing to do with what went on at the cash register.

wait staff and cashiers take a lot of heat for this stuff - and as I point to in my post, cash transactions might be one thing, but a debit card (or credit card) transaction is going directly into the 'business' account - and there's very little in the way of 'creative cash' that a cashier can pull, without the connivance of the people actually doing the books for that operation.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

24. Ya not sure what "till records are". If just the cashier records

Then my options 1&2 are not possible, you're right. Doesn't say whether the store overall was oob. But if it wasn't somebody was. Still think it was likely a software glitch that duplicated the transax. And the bank would be out the $150 since they had to give it back to OP.

It'd be easy for the bank to check to see where the other side of the transax was. If there was no offsetting credit, like to a hacker it's a software glitch. But like I said, amount not big enough for them to worry about. Big of course to us but not to them unless it's rampant.

POS terminals are funky for sure.

[stopdiggin]

25. and you and I BOTH agree

doesn't sound like either the store or the bank are really devoting a great deal of time (or effort) to this mistake. Just another day at the office - and 'price of doing business.' Ho hum.

I'm also perfectly willing to go along with a 'glitch' (and the fact that they happen w/ POS systems). But - the bank credited that transaction to somebody's account - that fact is clear. Grocery store says "we didn't get it." Uh huh. That right? How many minutes did your 'assistant manager' spend on that?

[Fla Dem]

11. I'm not surprised. A few months ago I received notice

From a local bank thanking me for opening 2 new accounts. I didn’t. I received bank cards for each account. There were no funds in the account and it wasn’t a bank I have ever used. But it scared the heck out of me. I couldn’t understand what the scam was. They had my address and ss#, but no funds. What was the point.

Went to the local branch and they were not even concerned. Said thing like this happen all the time. Anyway they cancelled both accounts and gave me documents verifying that both accounts were closed.

I’m glad you were able to be reimbursed, but it certainly does make you concerned.

[dixiegrrrrl]

16. off topic...

I'm hearing disney might have DeSantis over hot coals on his attempted attack on Disney.
You hear anything about that?

[Fla Dem]

21. Yes, this was done as a angry reaction with no thought. Here's a thread I found very informative.

Very long twitter thread. I've only posted the 1st 2, but goes to 32.

Link to tweet

Link to tweet