Cat people - please chime in. I feel awful (** all kitties safe and healthy ** )

[Flaxbee]

This is long - if you make it to the end and have any comments, I appreciate it.

Last winter I started feeding a few ferals near our office -- by spring, only one was left (one was an old, battered male and I don't think I got to him in time to make a difference). I named the one still left Lily, and she'd stop by every day at the same time for food. I have never been able to get closer to her than 5 feet, but she'll meow at me, and knew the sound of our car, my voice, etc. and would come when she saw us arrive; or if we were late, she'd hang out in the bushes near our office until we got there.

She got pregnant before I could catch her. She had three kittens, and about six weeks ago she started bringing them around for food. I caught all four of them (Lily and babies) 5 weeks ago, and with the help of a local group, had them all spayed/neutered as appropriate, shots, etc. (kittens were one black female, one gray male, and one tabby male).

They were at the local rescue for almost 4.5 weeks because I caught them right after the clinic that cares for ferals had finished one spay/neuter cycle - so we had to wait until the next clinic rolled around mid- September.

The woman who runs the rescue said that the male kitties could probably very easily be tamed into pets, and she kept them to gentle them further and adopt them out. Hopefully they do gentle and are placed in good homes.

Lily is about 2 years old, according to vet, and she is most definitely feral. Not a spitting fighting hissing feral and she might, over time, become less so, but she isn't "standard" pet material. Our office complex is owned by a man who runs a landscaping business, and he said she could be released back at the complex and I could set up a winter shelter for her (he's a nice guy, and the place has a greenhouse, etc. -- not a bad place for a feral), a feeding station, etc.

The woman who took them in after I caught them also said little black female kitty (whom I call Ella) was a tougher nut to crack than the males, and that I needed to pick her up, too, when I got them this weekend (the girls had had 10 days to heal post-spay).

I have talked to a few people here - one has a horse farm, the other helps with a different cat rescue group - and I am pretty sure I can place Ella with someone who understands ferals and is willing to spend time with her (she's 5 months old) to get her to be a companion kitty. She's probably young enough at 5-6 months to come around with enough patience and love.

Anyway. I picked Lily (mama) and Ella (baby) up yesterday; they were both in a large cage (think medium/large dog size) with little litter box, food, water, etc. After letting Lily relax a bit back at our office (we have a garage at the office), we let her go (we were able to keep Ella in the cage). Lily took off last night and I put food out in her usual place and it was all gone this morning. Ella I kept in the cage and tucked her in last night; she was fine this morning and had eaten, done her litter business, etc.

Today (Sunday) at Lily's usual feeding time, she showed up (I was sooo happy - wasn't sure if after being gone for 5 weeks if she'd resume our routine). However, once I fed her, she wouldn't leave. I had the front door propped open because it was so nice out, and she started to meow. I'd go check on her, and she'd keep meowing. I put out a little tuna as a treat, and that wouldn't quiet her, either.

So I brought the cage with Ella in it to the front door (keeping the cage door closed) so Lily could see her; they touched noses and Lily stayed with Ella until we had to leave and I put Ella (who had been in her cage the whole time) back in the office, with food, water, litter, etc..

Lily kept meowing at me for the few minutes before we left. She misses her baby. Her baby was glad to see her.

Oh my god I feel like a monster, separating mama and baby. Please understand, Lily is feral, and Ella has a chance to be a house pet. Ella needs a home, not to be wild. But I still feel like shit.

How long will Lily mourn? My heart is breaking. I will care for Lily and feed her, but she may be lonely because there really aren't other cats at the complex. And there is no freaking way I am going to release an all black (except for one white puff of fur on her chest) 5 month old kitten to become wild, most definitely not near Halloween (I won't tell you the things I've seen).

What would you do? Am I doing the right thing?

[Paulie]

1. Lily doesn't understand the difference between getting a home or getting run over by a car

You do.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

2. Flaxbee,

Are you absolutely sure that given time Lily would not settle down enough to become a pet?

What would happen, do you think, if you put Lily back in the cage with Ella?

Are you not able to even touch Lily, at all? Surely, at this point, she can withstand some petting, right? no?

I am thinking that if she watches Ella respond to humans that maybe this will encourage her also.

[Flaxbee]

9. I have never been able to touch Lily, or even get closer than 5 feet.

She may be "first generation" feral - left to go wild as a kitten (so many dumped animals in this rural area) but she has never been someone's pet.

I've taken in over two dozen cats / found homes for most of them (and kept a few myself) and she is feral.

Mildly feral, and could become a pet - but feral.

What I was hoping is that over time, she would mellow and become an office cat I can't introduce her to our household of 5 cats for a variety of reasons - there just is no sixth cat here because my life is in complete upheaval and I'm struggling to even do this for the office kitties.

I just hadn't expected her to grieve so much for Ella. I have nowhere to work with her or Ella; I just hopefully have some time to work with Lily over the coming months ...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

10. Can you, at least, try letting Lily BACK into the cage with Ella ...

Does Lily allow you to put your hands on her?

[Flaxbee]

12. No. I have never gotten closer than 5 feet.

I can't pet her, touch her, pick her up, or even sit down on the sidewalk without having her run for some kind of cover under a car or into the bushes.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

13. I am talking about the baby, did I confuse the names? Sorry, if I did.

The mother cat went right up to the cage and touched noses with the baby, yes?

Do you think she would walk back into the cage to be with her baby?

[Flaxbee]

15. I don't know if Lily would. I just picked Ella (baby, aka LBK - little black kitty) up by the scruff

of her neck and scratched her forehead - minimum of hissing. Ella will come around, no question.

Not sure if Lily (momma) would go back in. I can maybe try later -- or if Lily is OK, perhaps I should just continue the emotional weaning, so to speak.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

16. Flaxbee, please try. Maybe the momma cat will settle down given time. Especially, if watching her

baby being handled by humans and seeing that the humans are not hurting her baby. She will maybe learn to trust humans.

Maybe you can just let your hand "lay" in the cage for some few minutes, let them smell it and touch it. Don't move it.

Just let it be ...

See what happens. Please, do try ... and keep us updated.

[kurtzapril4]

27. Well, I rescued

Every stray and feral in my neighborhood, it seems. Yes, feral cats can be tamed. It takes time and patience. At one time we had 4 feral cats (all 4 born outside to a couple of feral moms, and they themselves were feral, they were from 2-4 years old when we brought them in.)and it took a while, but eventually they became loving house cats. Three of them have since passed on, of old age, but we still have Missus, mother of one of the other cats. When we got Missus, we put her in the den, which we put a screen door on. We would both go in there and sit, and read out loud. She got used to our noises, and she could smell the other cats in the house. Dan would sit in there and work, because it's also his office. It took a year, and lots of yummy canned food, but she let me touch her one day, and it's like a switch flipped in her head. I'd say within another 3 months, she was a lap cat. So it can be done.

[Flaxbee]

28. Well, I am making progress with Ella (baby); just got her to purr :)

Gently scratched her ears and chin - I was stretched all the way inside of the cage and she was scrunched in the corner, but she let me pet her without hissing and popped a good, strong purr.

Have to go out and run errands but will do that again this evening. Small steps.

Lily, on the other hand, was still sleeping in the bed I put out for her last night when we left work around 9:30; she's probably out on her rounds but should see her this evening.

Ella (baby) needs a loving home asap; Lily will come around after a while, I think.

[politicat]

3. You know, Lily may be stray, not feral.

She sounds like she's been socialized. Ferals really don't meow for human attention. She actually sounds more like a standoffish stray who has recalled her socialization now that she's been around you for a long while and been in the shelter.

What does Lily's tail do when she's near people? Is it up or down? When she was in the cage, where was her position -- near the front, or huddled in the back? Would she rub against the bars? Before she had her kittens, how was her condition? Clean and groomed or untidy?

Ferals don't raise their tails when humans are around. They cower in the recesses of their TNR cage. They don't mark the bars of the cage. They're usually much, much much tidier and cleaner than a stray.

It's really hard to tell a standoffish stray from a feral, but some cats are introverts.

Lily will probably never be a lap cat, but if she's handling litter box and talking to people... is there any chance she can become the garage/greenhouse cat?

I agree that Ella needs her chance and should not be let out to join Lily, but Lily sounds like she's got some socialization, and that counts for a lot in her chances to redirect.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

4. I agree. I don't think Lily is full-on feral at this point.

[Flaxbee]

11. She only recently started to meow at me a few weeks before I caught her. Before that, she

hissed only. I just talked to her in a high pitched voice and she started to mimic me.

She was always huddled in the back, and the woman who had her for 4-5 weeks said she swiped at her every time she reached in to change the litter, food, newspaper lining, etc.

She's a small cat, and has always seemed clean. But she never marked the cage and always was in the back with her ears back.

Lily can certainly become the office complex cat, and I'm thinking over time she may be willing to sleep inside, especially when it gets cold.

I think there is hope for Lily; and more hope for Ella if she gets a good, loving person to look after her (I'll make sure she does, somehow).

[joeybee12]

14. I actually think she's feral...while most ferals won't meow, because Mom tells

them not to around humans, some of the ones I feed that are definietly feral will meow for food, but they never let me approach, like Lily.

[NuclearDem]

5. Cats can be very flexible with taming and becoming feral.

A cat that's spent its life indoors and as a housecat can revert to a near-feral cat within days of being left out on its own, but it just depends on the cat.

If Lily is acclimating at all to being a housecat, then that's a good sign (using a litterbox, eating at meal times, etc). Personality wise, some cats just won't be ultra-friendly lap cats, but that doesn't mean they're hopeless as house cats.

[LiberalElite]

6. I adopted a feral kitten once -

I named her Chloe. At first she hid all the time. It seemed as if I didn't have a cat at all. I just let her be and eventually she stopped hiding. She never turned into a lap cat or even a sit-next-to-you cat. She was content to stay out of hiding in the same room with me and that was good enough.

[magical thyme]

7. I would take Lily back in...

I don't think having her with her kitten will pevent the kitten from settling in, whereas Lily may decide she likes it on easy street.

She may never become a lap kitty, but that wouldn't stop her from becoming a house kitty.

[ellenrr]

8. I don't have an opinion on yr question, but - you are a good human being! thank you. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

17. she is that, our Flaxbee!!

just a wonderful human being

[Flaxbee]

21. thanks, TA

having a really tough time here for other reasons, and seeing / hearing Lily cry for her baby almost sent me over the edge yesterday. I didn't mean to snap at you earlier, I'm just at my wit's end with other things.

[Liberalynn]

18. Thank you for taking care of the feral babies.

I think you are doing the right thing. :Hug:

I have some ferals that live in my barn. I've been working with an organization trying to get them all spayed at low cost.

Down to just two more that need to be spayed but they both just had litters a few weeks ago while we were waiting for a clinic spot. The not for profit is supposed to come next week, trap the two momma's spay, and then put them back in the barn with their kittens. The six kittens will have to be spayed next spring.

You mention a black kitten with just a spot of white on it's chest. There is a 3 month old kitten here that is the same. Right now he is hiding under a quince bush out in the hedge row quite a distance from the house and barn. Must have went out on a hunting trip with his momma yesterday morning and can't figure out how to get back home. His litter mates are here but no sign of him momma, and he won't follow me home or let me get close enough to catch him to carry him home in a cat crate. He's been out there since yesterday. I took him food. Hopefully the mother cat will go back out there soon, and he will follow her home. If not the organization who spays the cats for me says they will loan me a trap tomorrow to get him back with his pals.

[Flaxbee]

22. thanks, Liberalynn

Doing the right thing isn't always emotionally the easiest thing, though. Almost broke my heart to hear Lily meowing for her baby yesterday.

Let me know if your little black kitty boy gets back where he belongs. At least he has food, courtesy of you.

Thank you too for caring for the ferals.

[Liberalynn]

25. It's true about the right thing sometimes not being emotionally easy.

Are there any not for profit groups around your area that might be able to help you find an existing colony of ferals that Lily might get accepted into so she wouldn't be alone? I know colony cats don't always accept outsiders well but last year two cats who weren't part of the existing colony that lives in my barn wintered here and the existing group let them stay without too many problems, That did change though in the spring when mating season came around, and one of the existing colony males got too full of himself and not only chased the two newbies off, but many of his own colony members.

I hope it works out for Lily and again thank you for the work you do to help her and her kitten.

The black kitten with the white spot from my group was home this morning. His mother is back now too so at some point last night she must have heard him yowling and led him back home after he spent two days out there.

[GreenPartyVoter]

19. It will be ok! *hugs* We got "adopted" by a stray who had kittens, who also had kittens, under

our dilapidated old carriage house and some of the babies turned out to be utterly feral. I think when they grew up they wound up at the dump down the road, where I suspect their fathers lived anyway.

We "raised" and gave away the ones who could be homed, and over time our neighbors caught as many of the others as they could and had them fixed. It's just a fact of life when you are trying to slow down the growth of the local cat colony.

Lily will be ok with a little time.

[Flaxbee]

20. thank you. I think most mothers have a hard time when separated from their babies

I have been able to pick Ella (baby) up a few times today. She doesn't love it, and I don't hold her for more than a minute, but I'm trying to desensitize her to being held and she's doing pretty well.

Lily is a whole different kettle of fish. I'll do my best to feed her and love her and hopefully tame her over time ... but her kitty baby I think can have a good home.

I appreciate the reassurances.

[sammytko]

23. I have a feral mom and " kitten"

The mom comes in and out of the house. The only time I try to catch her is when it's time for her flea treatment. The baby, now over a year, is not feral and has never been outside. Well except for the first few weeks of life.

I trapped them all and kept them captive in a spare room.

The feral mom knows she has it good inside the house, but still won't let me pick her up unless by accident. Kitten doesn't even attempt to go outside.

[Flaxbee]

24. Lily is asleep outside the office door now in the bed I made for her tucked into some brush-cover;

she has not cried for Ella today, so I didn't bring the cage forward to the front door.

Hoping for a gradual, gentle emotional weaning. I've told Lily that her baby is fine, well fed, warm and safe and not to worry. I hope she listened.

Unfortunately, the woman with the horse farm who said she wanted Ella hasn't contacted me (she talked to a friend of mine late last week).

Need to find a good home for Ella!

There are so many kittens out there needing good homes; I know - but if you know anyone who wants a beautiful kitty with a white puff of fur in her otherwise all black body, and who is willing to work with a semi-feral kitten, let me know.

[Ikonoklast]

26. You are going above and beyond normal duty helping those kitties.

I have done the same as you, currently trying to get a litter of four inside or they might not make the winter.