This is all getting so depressing

[LeftishBrit]

Firstly, I don't think most people, including certainly myself, quite realized HOW disastrous a Brexit might be. Until recently, I was a very lukewarm Remainer, who for example would not have taken a parliamentary candidate's EU views as a major reason to vote for or against them. I wanted to Remain because of not increasing economic dependence on less democratic countries than those of the EU, or becoming 'Bush's/ other potential Republican president's' 51st state' or empowering the UKIP types. But until I started investigating because the Referendum was approaching, I really didn't know our net gains and disadvantages from the EU and was quite shocked to discover how much we get in return for what we give. And it was not till after the Referendum that I fully realized how much we were throwing away.

It scares me to know how misinformed/ uninformed we all are. Those who rely on the tabloid press are obviously more so; but even the BBC, broadsheets, etc. have given us little information about the EU most of the time. I should have explored more - as I have about American politics for example. But I feel guilty for not knowing much more, much earlier; even though I did vote, and may even have persuaded some others to vote, to Remain.

And the whole concept of a Referendum on such complicated issues, and with so little information, is just dangerous, especially if an absolute majority vote is taken as sufficient. I used to think it was sometimes good to have a Referendum, but now I don't. The divisions created have been terrifying - most of all, the racial and xenophobic attitudes, but also regional divisions, ageism, everything. Such a Pandora's box has been opened.

And what also scares me is the real irresponsibility of most of our leaders. I didn't realize quite the extent of it. I thought that we had some bad leaders with bad plans; but not that we had so many leaders with NO plans. What should you do if you call a Referendum on a crucial issue for your country, and lose it? Run for the hills! What should you do if you agitate for a Referendum on a crucial issue for your country, and win it? Run for the hills! I despair sometimes. I really did think that there were plans, even if very bad plans, for both outcomes. It seems that there weren't.

And that's just here in the not-currently-very United Kingdom. America has Trump - even if he loses, he will have stirred up some nasty stuff. Turkey looks like going back decades in time, and ceasing to be even the imperfect democracy that it was. Terrorist outrages are everywhere - most of all, of course, in the places where they're least reported.

I despair. Will anything good ever happen again??!

I'm not usually this gloomy, but....

[Surya Gayatri]

1. ^^^AMEN to this!^^^ Substitute "Trump" for "the EU" and you're describing the US.

It scares me to know how misinformed/ uninformed we all are. Those who rely on the tabloid press are obviously more so; but even the BBC, broadsheets, etc. have given us little information about the EU most of the time.

Murdoch's RW poison of willful, manipulative ignorance has spread its way across the globe.

He and his evil empire have much to answer for.

Richard Dimbleby and Edward R. Murrow are turning in their tombs.

[BlueMTexpat]

2. Another part of the problem was that

UKIP got their "Exit" delegates into the EU Parliament after energizing their voters in the 2014 elections, which should have sent major alarm bells off then. Neither Labour nor the Conservatives spent much time educating the UK about EU benefits or even about what the EU Parliament (or the EU generally) was, so many UK citizens seemed not even to realize that they had representation there. While the Tories outspent Labour in the 2014 elections, they came in third!

Perhaps if the UK had not sent its most obstructionist and most obnoxious politicians to the EP (like today's GOP in the US Congress), they might have had more positive impact on policy towards the UK. And perhaps if the major parties had spent more time educating their constituents about EU benefits all along, the Leave vote would never have succeeded. The UK M$M functioned w/r/t this issue about as well as the US M$M has about everything, which is to say not at all. There is LOTS of blame to go around.

Ultimately, it was the voters themselves, of course. But in a representative democracy, voters SHOULD be receiving good and accurate information from their elected representatives. That was not the case generally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_2014_(United_Kingdom) Voter turnout was 35.6%.

The United Kingdom's component of the 2014 European Parliament election was held on Thursday 22 May 2014, coinciding with the 2014 local elections in England and Northern Ireland. Given the subsequent Leave vote in the 23 June 2016 referendum, it is possible that this will be the last time the UK participates in a European Parliament election.

Most of the results of the election were announced on Sunday 25 May, after voting closed throughout the 28 member states of the European Union. In total, 73 Members of the European Parliament were elected from the United Kingdom using proportional representation. England, Scotland and Wales use a closed-list party list system of PR (with the D'Hondt method), while Northern Ireland used the single transferable vote (STV).

The UK Independence Party (UKIP) came top of the poll – the first time a political party other than the Labour Party or Conservative Party has won the popular vote in a British election since the 1906 general election. It is also the first time a party other than the Labour and Conservatives won the largest number of seats in a national election since the December 1910 general election.

The Conservatives, the party at the time in governing coalition with the Liberal Democrats, were pushed into third place for the first time in a European Parliament election, the same position as Labour in the previous 2009 European Parliament election. It was also the first time since 1984 that the largest opposition party failed to win the European Parliament election.

I probably didn't help your gloomy mood much and I'm sincerely sorry about that. But in the US, the GOP has now officially nominated the least qualified, most obnoxious, and most frightening candidates ever to run for US President. While I fervently hope and believe that Hillary will ultimately prevail, even the most remote possibility that Trump could ever occupy the Oval Office makes me pretty gloomy too.

[Ford_Prefect]

3. On both continents we need to follow the money to see the sources of the dilemma.

In Britain and the US rich elites have bought their way into the political process and broadly distorted the role of the press to serve their interests to the severe disadvantage of nearly everyone else. They have bought the legislators and nominated their favorites to power.

In some cases this is a cultural attack on modern society driven by people who feel that only they should determine who benefits from civilization. In much the rest of it the damage is done to defend heinous acts like hiding the damage global warming has caused due to oil & gas extraction and unrestrained industrial activity which coincidentally provided stunning profits for the same elites who owned it all. Sometimes it is done in the pursuit and control of enormous wealth and the power that confers.

There is a process of denial in place by which the power and effectiveness of democratic government is gradually blunted to favor those who would avoid its reach and the rule of law. The results have been at times gradual like the de-funding of OSHA to reduce the number and effectiveness of safety inspections, or they have been dramatic and abrupt like political engineering of the invasion of Iraq, or the Brexit vote, or NAFTA.

If you feel threatened and powerless in the face of this onslaught welcome to the brave new world. As several have said, our democratic processes have been rigged by the elites. The seeming dissolution of Turkey's democracy into yet one more tyrannical mid-eastern state is the unfortunate outcome of the very corrupt Erdogan family and their enablers applying the golden rule: whoever has the gold makes the rules, (or at least defines their perception and application).

[BooScout]

4. I'm mad at everyone...

At Cameron and the Tories for bribing UK voters with a promise of the referendum if they voted conservative in the last election....with Labour for continuing to be in total disarray and not rising to the challenge to stand up for the remain campaign forcefully enough....with the press for not reporting on the possible repercussions prior to the vote and for the voters for just voting with their anger and prejudices rather than actually considering what a leave outcome might mean. It's an absolute total clusterfuck.