Hillary Clinton
Related: About this forumWhen Sanders talks about polls showing him beating Trump, he's leaving one an important fact:
Those polls right now don't mean diddly squat. Sanders has been treated with kid gloves thus far. He hasn't had to withstand the right wing ONSLAUGHT that will come if he were to win our nomination. We would hear TAXES TAXES TAXES SOCIALIST SOCIALIST SOCIALIST COMMUNIST COMMUNIST COMMUNIST day and night and night and day iin thousands of ads and it would be a BLOODBATH.
I like Bernie, but his plans are VAGUE, and MUCH of his support is built on frustration and big virtually undeliverable promises like free tuition which sound good but have little to no chance of passing.
Hillary is much more grounded in reality and supremely qualified. She has already been attacked by the right wing machine for years, is still standing strong, is battle tested (unlike Sanders), and will take Trump to the woodshed in the general election.
Firebrand Gary
(5,044 posts)It's not uncommon for Hillary to say that the republicans have been coming at her for 25 years, people are beginning to understand what that means.
riversedge
(70,204 posts)evades anyway)
LannyDeVaney
(1,033 posts)it's so obvious, it doesn't even need to be addressed further.
jmowreader
(50,557 posts)Like you said, he evades those anyway.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... from the WAPO and other sources (even giving an hourly count at the frequency of the number of critical articles).
Well ... they ain't seen nothin' yet! Stand by. More to come. It will get more intense.
That's politics ... Not a conspiracy ... just politics.
pandr32
(11,581 posts)Sanders supporters want their candidate to be given the red carpet treatment after the rest of us begin to see the light and "feel the bern" I guess. They don't even know their candidate very well--he has kept much out of the public eye all along--a perk if you are under the radar, but now he is receiving national attention and people are beginning to see what is stashed in his closet. There are still years of blank pages from his life story.
Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)I have indeed noticed that Hillary's policy positions are much more comprehensive than Bernie's. And in Foreign Policy, his cred is almost non-existent.
brer cat
(24,561 posts)waltben
(31 posts)Haven't you noticed how they change from day to day depending on how the vote weather vane turns. Lately she can't even remember things very well - but she's had problems with that before too.
spooky3
(34,444 posts)Her Sister
(6,444 posts)Cha
(297,185 posts)perseverance will carry her to the White House.
pandr32
(11,581 posts)DemonGoddess
(4,640 posts)is a mild description of just what the Republicans would do to him. I also happen to think Trumpler will now focus most of his nastiness in that direction for a time, because of the rallies. Given that he is not shy to say the most appalling things already directed at his own party, he's going to be worse pointing that vileness at someone outside of his party.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Able to vote in the DNC primary, in polls the same is resulting with Republicans are selecting Sanders. Not for one minute are the same people going to remain Democrats in the GE, they will not vote for Sanders in the GE. It is not a good poll.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)ONE WEEK before the 2012 election, many pollsters had Romney beating Obama comfortably. Polling before the two nominees stand aside of each other on a debate stage is a waste of time. Sanders is particularly vulnerable to world events. The Sanders crowd has worked hard to unfairly frame Hillary as a war hawk. In reality, Sanders has the opposite problem. If a San Bernadino-type attack happens with Sanders as our nominee, the political center of this country will run away from Sanders in a stampede to the Right side of the room. That's how tenuously risky a Sanders nomination would be.
mark67
(196 posts)I have great respect for Sanders and his message. If he gets the nomination I'll vote for him in the general.
But Trump will crush him: I saw photos on MSNBC of Sanders and Trump side by side and it looks like Mr. Magoo vs. THe Master of the Universe. Trump-Hillary photos: seasoned pro vs. crazy man with bad hair. The American people, God Bless Us, vote based on these types of factors. Witness the last 20 years.
My older uncle is a huge Sanders supporter, but rather than being convincing comes off as angry and belligerent and conspiracy laden concerning the Clinton's. Younger college students I talk to in class in the university who support Bernie sound incredibly hopeful but incredibly naïve, perfect grist for Trump's steamroller onslaught if Bernie gets the nomination. This is completely understandable: as they would have been between 5-7 yo during the 2000 election.
Also, crowd turnout can mean a lot or it can mean nothing. Witness the 2004 election. Kerry: huge, record breaking turnouts. W.: private events with planted questions and monitored admittance to keep out protestors. We all know how that one turned out.
Clinton is a flawed candidate. I question her ties to Wall Street. But she is seasoned, she is a pro, and I'm confident that after 20 years of putting up with sh*t from the right that if she is elected, the gloves will come off. Unlike Trump, she has nothing to prove. She's been around power and politics for two decades. She has my vote tomorrow.
TxDemChem
(1,918 posts)I've read his policy proposals and looked at the documents he's referenced for them. I don't think they are vague. They are listed on his website if anyone wants to take a look. HEC is more battleground tested against the right wing, but some people despise her so much, I'm afraid they will sit out the GE.
Cha
(297,185 posts)stump speech a lot. It's quite noticeable.
Her Sister
(6,444 posts)Clinton Most Admired Woman for Record 20th Time
http://www.gallup.com/poll/187922/clinton-admired-woman-record-20th-time.aspx
"Americans again name Hillary Clinton and President Barack Obama the woman and man living anywhere in the world they admire most. Both win by wide margins over the next-closest finishers, Malala Yousafzai for women and Pope Francis and Donald Trump for men."
cannondale
(96 posts)Once people find out he's a Democratic Socialist they'll stop going to his rallies and stop voting for him in polls. No wonder he's hidden this fact for decades.
Edit: I think Hillary would be a good POTUS, bit come on folks. I find the "He hasn't bee vetted" stuff to be a bit hilarious. And Bernie has given far more specifics regarding his plans than Hillary. Do you really think people taking polls and attending rallies didn't realize he was a Democratic Socialist?
jomin41
(559 posts)Hillary is a terrible campaigner. Bernie draws a lot of people and new people.
Hillary has a ton of baggage. Bernie has been consistent and principled all his life.
Trump will use her huge unfavorables against her.
Bernie will beat trump.
Hillary will lose to trump. It will be a disaster.
The rest is bullshit.
Cha
(297,185 posts)No worries though.. because BS is not going to get a chance to be beaten by trump.
Hillary will prevail.
Her Sister
(6,444 posts)Trump!!!! anyone!?
Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)And you are in the Hillary Group. You have to go peddle your wares elsewhere.
Her Sister
(6,444 posts)until they're not!!
artyteacher
(598 posts)He hasn't been vetted yet.
LittleGirl
(8,287 posts)Her Sister
(6,444 posts)so please take your whatever with you.
Hillary Clinton Group!!
book_worm
(15,951 posts)HRC voters say that they will vote for Sanders.
cannondale
(96 posts)Many Clinton voters say they won't vote for Sanders.
Or maybe we're really talking about 1,000 people on either side. It's silly to think that people who place their favorite (HRC or Sanders) don't have the other D candidate WELL above any Republican.
Of COURSE Sanders fans will vote for HRC. Did you think they wanted someone like Trump in office? That's absurd. Anecdotal evidence goes both ways.
Her Sister
(6,444 posts)taken last couple months.
Response to RBInMaine (Original post)
Her Sister This message was self-deleted by its author.
Gothmog
(145,168 posts)Polls do lie when such poling is based on bad data and premise. Nate Silver and other are clear that these polls are worthless in part because Sanders had not been vetted. Clinton has been vetted for two decades but the GOP and the press have not paid any attention to Sanders and so these polls are meaningless. Dana Milbank has some good comments on general election match up polls https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/democrats-would-be-insane-to-nominate-bernie-sanders/2016/01/26/0590e624-c472-11e5-a4aa-f25866ba0dc6_story.html?hpid=hp_opinions-for-wide-side_opinion-card-a%3Ahomepage%2Fstory
Watching Sanders at Monday nights Democratic presidential forum in Des Moines, I imagined how Trump or another Republican nominee would disembowel the relatively unknown Vermonter.
The first questioner from the audience asked Sanders to explain why he embraces the socialist label and requested that Sanders define it so that it doesnt concern the rest of us citizens.
Sanders, explaining that much of what he proposes is happening in Scandinavia and Germany (a concept that itself alarms Americans who dont want to be like socialized Europe), answered vaguely: Creating a government that works for all of us, not just a handful of people on the top thats my definition of democratic socialism.
But thats not how Republicans will define socialism and theyll have the dictionary on their side. Theyll portray Sanders as one who wants the government to own and control major industries and the means of production and distribution of goods. Theyll say he wants to take away private property. That wouldnt be fair, but it would be easy. Socialists dont win national elections in the United States .
Sanders on Monday night also admitted he would seek massive tax increases one of the biggest tax hikes in history, as moderator Chris Cuomo put it to expand Medicare to all. Sanders, this time making a comparison with Britain and France, allowed that hypothetically, youre going to pay $5,000 more in taxes, and declared, W e will raise taxes, yes we will. He said this would be offset by lower health-insurance premiums and protested that its demagogic to say, oh, youre paying more in taxes.
Well, yes and Trump is a demagogue.
Sanders also made clear he would be happy to identify Democrats as the party of big government and of wealth redistribution. When Cuomo said Sanders seemed to be saying he would grow government bigger than ever, Sanders didnt quarrel, saying, P eople want to criticize me, okay, and F ine, if thats the criticism, I accept it.
Sanders accepts it, but are Democrats ready to accept ownership of socialism, massive tax increases and a dramatic expansion of government? If so, they will lose.
Match up polls are worthless because the candidates have not been fully vetted. Sanders is very vulnerable to negative ads
Her Sister
(6,444 posts)what do you get!? nothing good.
I remember that town-hall with Chris Cuomo, until then he had avoided mentioning that taxes would have to be raised on the middle class. But in that moment, was totally on the spot. Had to answer, not only was he asked the question but also the fact that it was in front of an audience.
LisaM
(27,806 posts)About half the people I know who support him have never ID'd themselves as Democrats. They voted Democratic for the most part over the years, but don't consider themselves Democrats, have never joined the party to my knowledge, often vote for third-party candidates (even one who was supporting Ron Paul at one point), etc. Any Sanders nomination would really be occasioned by the independent vote. I certainly hope Hillary is the nominee, but I am not taking anything for granted at this point. Bernie's Oppo Army is out there, quite willing to damage a Democratic candidate if necessary.
kstewart33
(6,551 posts)And there goes the Supreme Court, Obamacare and so much of the progress we've made for gay rights and civil rights.
NONE of Bernie's platform has any chance of passing because of simple math. A historically high Republican majority in the House (58 seats) and a strong Republican majority in the Senate because of the 60 vote rule.
Her Sister
(6,444 posts)These are more recent and still (shhhh shhhh Bernie has not been vetted yet by republicans shhhh shhhh, don't tell anyone)
http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-general-election-trump-vs-clinton
http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-general-election-trump-vs-sanders
radical noodle
(8,000 posts)for Democratic Socialism to a majority of the country, he cannot avoid the charge of Communist sympathizer, which will hurt his chances tremendously. Most people don't yet know about the Castro thing, but it hurts him greatly here in Florida. It will hurt him everywhere when the Republicans run it 24/7 on everyone's TV.
LisaM
(27,806 posts)Will it be Teflon Bernie, or is it going to have a serious effect? I noticed he pretty much got the hell out of Dodge shortly afterward that debate.
radical noodle
(8,000 posts)because they don't really know anything about Castro. Think of all the retirees in Florida who well remember the Cuban Missile Crisis, not to mention the Cuban Americans here who fled when he came to power and who still hate him to this day. Most retirees here didn't like Sanders anyway, and this just reinforces it.
SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)It would be a bloodbath.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)people from the Venezuelan community in Florida today, and it sounds like BS was never even a consideration for them because of what "socialism" has wrought in Venezuela. So, I agree with you, they haven't laid a glove on BS yet, but when they do, he'll be lucky to keep his seat in the Senate.