You know what's really lousy about the climate here on DU?

[Chichiri]

It's pushing us to the right.

I am in favor of tuition free, or at least reduced tuition, college. I am in favor of universal health care. I am certainly in favor of investing in infrastructure, youth jobs, and clean energy. And I'm in favor of making the rich pay for most of this (in fact I don't think Bernie's plan goes far enough in this regard).

But rather than point out that real change happens incrementally, that revolution is nigh impossible and that the cost of trying is too high, which they simply won't accept because reasons, I find myself looking for reasons to say that tuition free college is a bad idea, that investing in infrastructure costs too much, that we're just not ready for single payer healthcare. Not because I really believe these things, but because the Bernie supporters are so damn infuriating that I want to take them down a peg however I possibly can. And then I find myself kinda-sorta believing these things. I find myself farther to the right than when I began.

I'm sure I'm not alone here.

This is why the Bernie supporters either need to become way more civil than they are, or they need to go. This is also why we Hillary supporters need to examine our own behavior for incivility, to keep our retaliatory impulses in check, and to work toward unity by setting an example. Democratic Underground exists to support Democrats, and there are far more Democrats in our numbers than in theirs, per capita. But if we can't be civil in the face of their civility, then we should be the ones to go.

This starts with me. I've been very combative in GDP lately, and have probably pushed Bernie supporters reflexively farther away from unity. My reasoning is that they're never going to be interested in unity anyway. But what if that's not true? What if they will respond better to simple statements of facts combined with civility and respect for their positions? I'm not sure I know how to do it at this point, but would it harm me to try?

But more to the point: if we could adopt this model of behavior, would the majority of Bernie supporters reciprocate?

I do think that they should bear the lion's share of responsibility here, and I do blame them for this breakdown in relations. It's obvious that they're focused on Hillary while we're focused on policy (although there are notable exceptions on both sides). As a result, while we're pushing them farther away from Hillary, they're pushing us farther away from the left. It may not be what they intend, but it is the inevitable result of their actions.

So for the time being, "in the face of their civility" is a moot point, and we have no reason to go anywhere.

But suppose they did clean up their act. If there's a chance of that happening, then the best way to bring it about is to set a model for behavior for them to emulate. But I don't know if we can, and I don't know if they will.

Just so I'm not misunderstood, however, this doesn't free us from the responsibility of keeping ourselves civil. Let us set an example by respecting the Bernie supporters as people, by focusing on policy and qualifications, by keeping our tone moderated, and by refusing to engage if we don't think we can do that. Let us do these things even if Bernie supporters do not reciprocate. To be sure, we should call on them to do so, but their acting like jerks should not free us to act like jerks.

And let us remember that we are all progressives, and we all want pretty much the same things, even if Bernie supporters don't acknowledge this. Let's not let our anger and our reflex reactions push us to the right. We do that, the Republicans win.

Even if it doesn't improve the climate, even if the silliness on DU continues until Hillary clinches the nomination and the admins finally clamp down, we'll be better people, and better progressives, for it.

Just a few idle thoughts for Friday Afternoon. Hope it's worth something.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

1. And, this attitude we see here is evidently similar OUT THERE!

It is hard for me to talk to someone who will sit out the election, like the way they probably did in 2010, just because they didn't get what they wanted.

I had hoped this selfish and NOT AT ALL liberal attitude was rare and limited to just a few and that Democratic Underground was not indicative of the population as a whole, but I was wrong.

It is almost as if they are using blackmail, vote for Bernie or we will make sure Trump is president.



Oh, I am a Bernie voter, by the way. But I will do what Bernie will do. We all know what that is.

[Treant]

2. I think I've moved a bit right

due to some of the things you claimed. Yeah, all that free stuff would be great, but it was never suggested as a platform before and how to pay for it (plus some consequences of having it) were never discussed.

Now that I see it analyzed, the Sanders method for these things simply won't work very well. It costs too much and comes with some massive problems in infrastructure.

So while still a fan of the concepts, I've gotten somewhat more conservative on scope and implementation. I've now moved into cautious incrementalism, in other words.

We should point out that moving a bit to the right still leaves me as firmly left. And my stance on most social issues is unchanged and still very far left.

[MattP]

3. I was leaning for Bernie now im not so sure

I said something about how one countys polls dont represent the whole state and got banned from the Bernie forum, it's hard to debate when have your fingers in your ears

[KitSileya]

38. I'm sorry that happened to you.

I don't post in that group, for obvious reasons, so I haven't banned from there. From what I've seen in this group, the hosts give people a chance unless they come here and denigrate Hillary from the very first post. Too many do, of course - the BSers consider it a "badge of courage" to be banned from the HRC group. It's more like a mark of shame, if you ask me, considering how they're the majority of the posters on the site and the HRC group is the one haven for us Hillary supporters. Here usually, people are just asked to delete their post if it's too Sanders-positive.

[TheDormouse]

4. K&R

[Stand and Fight]

5. I disagree. That's been tried time-and-time again with them.

Let me be clear -- I'm not speaking of all of Sanders supporters. Just the VERY VOCAL, VERY LOUD, and VERY RUDE portion. I won't even go as far as saying that the latter is a minority, because when I look at things here and elsewhere, they're the majority. You can see it in online supporters like The Young Turks as well. Their response is always to belittle and attack Hillary and her supporters. Our being civil and trying to discuss things with them has zero effect. Even if you try to point out the things you like about Bernie, they still accuse you of having ulterior motives.

I'm not interested in making nice with them. I've tried it and they were nothing short of vapid in their responses. It stems from Bernie Sanders as well. You've only to look at his demands for how he would endorse Hillary Clinton to see it stems from the top. This reminds me of Obama spending time trying to work with the GOP and compromise on things like healthcare reform and what did we get? Healthcare reform that's really just RomneyCare on the national level. Saying that we should essentially do the same thing with people who have accused Hillary Clinton of cheating, lying, murdering, participating in genocide, being in the pockets of Wall Street, not being a true progressive... You want to make nice with that? Not me. Nope, nope, nope.

They need to make the first move at achieving unity by showing that they've changed. How often did we post things at the start of the primary season that were complimentary about Bernie Sanders and they shouted us down. As a Black man, I am more offended than ever by them saying that they -- largely White liberals -- know better than me what's best for me. I've got more thoughts on this that I could flesh out and while I could go on and on, it really just boils down to what I've said above.

I haven't moved right at all. I don't believe that the way Bernie wants to implement those things are workable or realistic by the way. I do think they're good things that we should strive for, but before we do that, we need to do what Hillary Clinton and others have suggested -- GET A MAJORITY IN THE HOUSE AND SENATE. Until we do that, we will get no where fast.

So, no thank you...

[man of few w]

16. I remain a Liberal Democrat

I'm sure most Bernie supporters are, as well. But most of the ones I've seen on DU are more like cult members!

[Hekate]

6. Holding steady and being rational is NOT "being pushed to the right."

So hold steady and be rational. Stay grounded in the real world.

[Stand and Fight]

7. Thank you.

That's one of the problems with Democrats. Always trying to be consolidatory. There are times where you need to stand your ground and not always second guess yourself. I refuse to engage in navel gazing.

[SharonClark]

17. Democrats usually try to bring people into agreement

and not make unilateral decisions. Sometimes it works and sometimes Dems get rolled. This is a time to stand our ground.

[Stand and Fight]

20. Agreed on all points. n/t

[Her Sister]

8. I believe in HRC!!

I believe she will set up the groundwork!!! for a future Bernie to implement all we lefties have always believed in!

She will set up down the ballot. She will make the DEMS stronger. She will make so many improvements that have REAL ramifications.

This woman will do the work, the groundwork, the up-down work, the down-up work, the homework and the freaking housework!!! Not just talk! Not just crowds outside congresspeople's offices.


At this point ~ I TRUST ONLY HER!!!!

[romana]

9. Great post

Ideological purity is, ironically, a form of closed-mindedness that drives people away because it leaves no room for compromise. We're witnessing exactly how that can destroy a party from within. The current state of the GOP has many variables underlying it, but one big factor is the Tea Party element. I fear the Democrats are heading for a similar type of fracture because we have been treating each other like the enemy. I sincerely hope we can come together because we aren't really all that far apart.

[Her Sister]

10. In 2008 I voted for HRC from overseas!

I thought she would be the perfect candidate to clean up after WBush!

I thought it'd be great for Obama to come after her!!

She would prepare the ground for DEMS like Obama and someone like BS! She would makes us nice and strong! I just believe in her smarts, realism, and idealism! All of it!!

[samrock]

11. I agree totally with this post...

I can not believe the heat and fury generated over the very small differences between Bernie's beliefs and Hillary's.. I hope after all the primary's are over cooler heads will prevail and we can get on with the REAL task of keeping the white house blue. We also need to start on working to change the senate, house and as many state legislatures as well.. 2020 and a new census is not that far away..If we want to stop destructive gerrymandering we need more democratic governors and state legislatures..

[Lucinda]

12. I'm still quite solidly to the left

The overall ideas are fine, the fact that they aren't achievable in the current climate is the issue for me. We live in a representative government structure, not a Democratic vacuum, so I don't feel any need to criticize concepts, just the logic that Bernie is capable of accomplishing any of them.

The truth is the bulk of Dems supporting Bernie will shift to Hillary with no problem.
So other than debunking lies, I don't bother engaging much. Some are here to disrupt, and some are caught up in their chaos right now. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen posters come in after a really contentious race, with mea culpas about being so caught up in the moment, that they lost sight of the real opposition.

What is important is to get Hillary elected. Better to spend time making calls, and posting useful information for people out there still trying to make a choice. Love and kindness not only trump hate, but they make my life better, and healthier. I have no interest in the drama.

[Her Sister]

18. perfectly stated!

will adopt your viewpoint!

[Kaleva]

13. Many of us want to get to the same destination. The debate is what path we take.

[LisaM]

14. So many thoughtful posts here.

It's a pleasure to "know" all of you. Many good points - very civil discourse - and actual bantering of ideas! I keep finding myself in testy little battles too, in fact, I scrapped with someone a few minutes ago and I honestly don't know if the arguments they presented were real or made up (they sounded made up). There's many things we'd all like, and yes, how to get there is the big thing. But we have to deal with the system we have.

The theme millenials have is to disrupt. It's become a term of art, people actually think it's good. It's a model that started with Amazon - disrupt the book business! - followed by companies like AirBnB, Uber, the list goes on. Disrupt the taxi business! Disrupt the hotel business!

Now we have cities full of empty storefronts and no book stores, a cab business that can surge prices up to $1000 a ride for certain events, landlords evicting people to turn apartments into short term rentals....... I prefer to work towards shared goals in a more constructive way. I think the Sanders campaign epitomizes this disruption model - it's gone from him just running for office to a goal of completely disrupting the Democratic party. I'd rather strengthen it.

Kudos to the OP.

[Walk away]

15. At this point in the game, the Followers or Bernie aren't pushing....

anything except their cranky candidate up the steep path to a nomination he will never achieve! Everything else is just a bunch of losers shaking their tiny fists.

The climate at DU has always been a little crazy. The goofy jury system was bound to open the door to every kind of fringe element floating around the internet and the "Silly Season" drove the whole place into a frenzy.

I hadn't even been near DU for 8 or 9 months before the primaries. The anti-Obama faction had taken over and turned the place into a bitter cesspool. As soon as Hillary is elected, they will do it again and it will be time to leave again. There are so many more productive and interesting places to spend your time.

I'm happy to leave the place to the "Hair on Fire" crowd. They don't have to push me right, left or out. After I spike the ball for Hillary I am already gone.

[kjones]

19. I've not moved

...and if anything, I've moved further social left as Bernie has tossed social issues
out in favor of Wall St., Wall St. and Wall St. For example, the issues faced by PoC...while
I've always supported the causes, they felt distant from mine, and I was relatively
uninformed. Now, as we've all been pushed into corners by Bernie folks, I've been brought
into much closer contact and context with those causes...I've learned a lot of things
and met/talked to some interesting people because the BS crowd corralled us in the
same position.

I'd like to say that this whole "assault from the raging Left" has brought the "Obama
coalition" in tighter. Maybe we've been tempered by the blind and angry just when we
needed to be...right before the start of the general.

All in all, I'm glad we've all gone through this together...here, and in the outside world...
because it's good that we've become all that much more united!a

~To the real revolution

[Coolest Ranger]

21. It is hard for me to talk to

anyone with this attitude Bernie or Bust. I look at that type of voter as a lost cause. Those voters have disrespected me time and time again. They have accused me of racism and they have accused me of being a republican. Look, people have died for my right to vote for all of our rights to vote and your answer is to sit on your lazy ass because Bernie is not going to be the nominee? I refuse to talk to people like that

[Her Sister]

22. My sister a Republican will be voting for HRC

Told her about what's going on with BS' supporters and she just finds it childish. Thinks it makes no sense talking to people who talk like that b/c words don't make a difference at this point.

[Politicub]

24. Bernie or bust people must have nothing at stake

There's no other logical explanation that I can think of that they would support the GOP candidate, either for voting for Trump or sitting out and voting by proxy.

Must be nice to live in a world where it doesn't matter if a democrat or republican is in office. As a gay man and a person who has insurance through the ACA, it can be a matter of life or death.

[Number23]

42. The AA forum has been accused of all kinds of stuff by these people, and this is even AFTER

Skinner himself openly acknowledged that there is a problem with how black posters are treated on Democratic Underground. And one of the loudest, craziest ones doing it is AA, although I think this person is just pissed that a friend got outed for being a shit stirring, Putin loving troll.

Takes every single opportunity to shit on the forum and high five the nastiest, most hateful people here. Folks that 90% of their posts are about bravenak (who knew she was so damn interesting??!) or made the nastiest, most revolting comments about BLM last year. The disrespect you've seen is something we all have. And you can tell the ones doing the disrespecting and hating the most because they are the main ones acting as though it ain't happening at all.

[Politicub]

23. I woke up this morning to an email saying one of my posts was hidden

The complaint was I posted something on a thread that was "full of joy" and my post was critical of Bernie. Apparently he was blessed by a pigeon who came in for a closer look at his holy privilege.

[Cha]

25. LOL!

Of course it was hidden.. I hope you alerted on it if it wasn't against the TOS... IOW, if it was for nothing but disagreeing.

[Coolest Ranger]

26. Yes I agree with Cha

alert on the results so the person who alerts on it will never get to serve on a jury. The more we keep Bernie people from serving on juries the better the site will be

[Politicub]

32. How do you alert on a jury?

Never have done that before.

[Coolest Ranger]

35. In your e-mail

go to the message with the results and scroll down to the bottom. There should be a link that says alert. Click on that, a box will appear. What I usually do is leave a note like. Please look into the person who alerted on this. then I send it on.

[riversedge]

27. Actually many are pushing

the peace dove. uga uga. But it was a small little bird.

So sorry to hear you got a hide. LOTS of thin skins all around us.

[Koinos]

31. Saint Birdie Sanders

A personality cult that has gone way over the edge. Odd to see that happen to some who call themselves atheists. I guess everyone needs something to believe in.

You can't reason with people who have been carried away by their anger and other emotions.

[creon]

28. people get overheated

Human nature. It happens.
Some people get caught up in the drama, the fight of the moment, etc.

In most things that humans do, you have to cooperate. There are not very many things that do not require the cooperation of other people.
Politics and government are like that as well.

In the competition between Sanders and Clinton, one of the two will be nominated.

The winner should be gracious; the loser should be as well.
I think that it will reflect badly on whoever fails to be.

[raging moderate]

29. It's not free stuff.

Last edited Sat Mar 26, 2016, 12:30 PM - Edit history (1)

The people who are doing the actual physical work of producing the goods and services of the country deserve to have their fair share of the resulting wealth. The laborer is worthy of his hire.

Where the profits are assigned is largely a political decision, and, for the past forty years, powerful interests have deliberately accelerated the shifting of most of the profits upward, with massive government giveaways of free stuff to people who were already wealthy and deliberate punitive takeaways from the people who were already poor. This has left most working class people with fewer options in life, and reparative action is needed. The huge amounts that have been siphoned off are not sufficiently appreciated as they have largely been hidden.

During my childhood, many years ago, a smaller percentage of the wealth was assigned to the social group which included top CEOs and people who were assigned stock portfolios so large they could live off the interest. Their taxes were high enough to pay for the extra services which rich and powerful people inevitably receive from the government. Maybe we don't need to tax them nearly as heavily now as we did then, when much of the world lay in ruins from the Second World War.

Still, the richest among us could pay a little more in taxes and stop siphoning off the unprecedented percentage which they are currently sucking in. They could decide to become benevolent leaders. Leaders who care about their fellow countrymen will work to allocate adequate resources to education and public health.

The current trend will produce a system much like the horrific feudalism of the Middle Ages or the vicious capitalism of the late Nineteenth Century. "The Masque of the Red Death" is a story about a medieval castle whose inhabitants thought they could wall off the misery outside the walls. By the end of the story, they discovered they were wrong, too late. A society with many poor, struggling, sickly, injured people becomes not only a depressing place to live but actually a physically dangerous one which ruins everybody's health. But we are not too late.

We can reverse the trend which has left the United States at the bottom of the world in upward mobility. We can reduce the sharp disparities by reducing (only slightly) the payoff for winners and the punishment for losers in the economic contest. We can keep the capitalism which has been so helpful in development but regulate it as we once did. We can choose to live in a country full of healthy, well-educated, well-paid, hard-working people.

[Politicub]

33. Paragraph breaks will make your copy more legible

I'm not able to focus on it long enough to read the whole thing, but some words and phrases jumped out at me:

The masque of red death, medieval castle, childhood, second world war and sickly, well-paid people. You created modern art, and I thank you for it.

[raging moderate]

39. I guess I have read too much from Adam Smith. Or John Stuart Mill.

Or Schopenhauer.

Or Gibbon.

Difficult to maintain focus.

But highly recommended.

Revolutionary.

Although Gibbon intends to argue FOR extreme social stratification.

But it backfires, if you read all of it.

[ismnotwasm]

30. Actually there are a number of very valid communication techniques to handle this

But it would require a number of assumptions about Sanders supporters that they certainly wouldn't appreciate, and a desire to guide them through conversations. I have no such desire, which is why I rarely engage.

I think you are talking about the "polarization" that has happened between the candidates, the meme being that Sanders is very left, and Hillary is just short of, if not actually right. While this is patently false, a made-up meme, Hillary supporters are hit with this over and over again. We are liberal Democrats and real progressives we are not the ones who moved the goal posts.

I experienced something similar as a feminist that started during the Bush years that only recently has begun to change. I always considered myself to be a liberal feminist. The goal posts were moved, and I found myself labeled a radical feminist-- although my opinions hadn't changed. This left me--bemused--is the best way to describe it.

The Sanders people are not as powerful or influential as they think they are. In fact, IMO, one of the best thing that has come out of this election cycle is the influence of BLM on the electorate. BLM are not particular fans of either candidate, their goal is to have black lives front and center. We have seen what the response to this not-radical idea was.

I think Most people are not particularly political, although they "talk politics" in a cursory way. Most people are off put by too much rhetoric. And, ultimately people get bored and annoyed with high energy politics that replicate, or attempt to replicate some sort of authority. Sanders has been set up as such a authority figure. I'm not seeing that working out well for him.

[Koinos]

34. Many Sanders supporters wouldn't make very good salesmen.

Can you imagine dealing with a car salesman who berates you for not agreeing that his car is the best, who keeps telling you what is wrong with the car you currently own and like, who says only low-information buyers would buy any other car but his, and the like?

The art of politics requires civility, tact, diplomacy, compromise, listening, negotiation, empathy, and other human virtues. These are the same qualities necessary for making and maintaining long-term friendships and other relationships.

Sanders and some of his supporters seem to be afflicted with certain anti-social tendencies. To that extent, they are loners who don't play well with others.

[pandr32]

36. It is more than civility and incivility

First I will admit that not every Bernie supporter has gone off the rails. There are some that admit he most likely can't win and that they will vote for Hillary in the GE in that case, but they want to ride the process to the end first. It seems, at least here in DU, though, to be the exception to have that realistic attitude, though if they were realistic I don't see how they would be with Bernie in the first place.
There are also those that intensely hate Hillary Clinton. In fact it seems to go hand in hand with being a Bernie supporter. Bernie, himself, stokes this fire because it helps separate himself out--apart from all the rest as the single, genuine article. He is the one who has been fighting the wicked establishment as a lone voice without faltering his whole career. Not only is Hillary establishment, according to Bernie, but she also takes pay for play, and she is the one responsible for starting the quagmire in the Middle East that is going to drag us into WW III if we do not change things...now.
See that? Bush and Cheney aren't the war criminals--Hillary Clinton is.
Stories that reinforce this perception are constantly swapped with other Bernie supporters. Facebook is hard to visit, even just to scan family and friend posts because--sure as sh*t--you will get a blast in the face of Hillary hate and/or something that speaks of how there will be a magical future with wonderful Bernie. He is honest--she is not. He is good--she is bad. He is real people. She is an evil conniving witch, etc. Hillary is responsible for all our problems--here and everywhere in the world.
Now Bernie is going ahead with his lawsuit against the DNC. The DNC is evil, too. Bernie supporters intensely hate the DNC. So what if the DNC uses their money to support other Dems. The ones that will not switch to support Bernie are in the tank with evil Hillary and the evil DNC.
On and on.
Sanders is programming his supporters, not wooing them. Those big rallies? Along with the elevated and intoxicating excitement that comes from the huge crowds themselves is Bernie unchecked--spewing the same message over and over and over. Only Bernie cares about you! This is group brainwashing like in a cult (think Moonies and dancing with rattle snakes while speaking in tongues). It is reinforced in the media through the wide presence of Bernie supporters and paid trolls who make their presence known under every left-tinged political article in the comments--denouncing whatever was said against their "cause' or "revolution" and reinforcing the group think. Look at our own DU to see how it works here.
Sigh.

[Buzz cook]

37. Not hard to believe. Once Bernie claimed the ideological purity ground.

We all want unicorns to be true.

Pointing out that the boring one is a better and smarter candidate than the unicorn salesman makes it look like you're criticizing unicorns.
This is similar to Bradly vs Gore in 2000. Bradly offered an unworkable but nice sounding health care promise. When Gore pointed out it was unrealistic, Gore was criticized.

On a personal level: people are lazy, we too often fall into ready made rhetoric rather than working out our own arguments. I've seen this happen with supporters of Palestinian rights using anti-Semitic rhetoric and now with Bernie supporters using racist rhetoric. I don't believe either camp is anti Semitic or racist, it's just easier to use pre made arguments.

The same is true for many Hillary supporters, sad to say. We fall into right wing rhetoric because its easier.

One avenue of argument I don't see from my fellow Hillary supporters is agreement. Yes single payer is nice but you know who would be great to get a public option? Hillary Clinton.

And if you want to go there you could attack Sanders supporters from the left. Single payer is a half way position, a national healthcare system is the way to go. Many of Sanders positions are not truly leftist anywhere, except America.

Finally you could just not argue. Research Clinton's positions and make a positive case for them. Probably not hard to do.

[Her Sister]

40. The moment BS claimed the purity ground

piqued my curiosity immensely! and went into VETTING MODE BIG TIME!! ...and I haven't let go.
So BS' purity ground plus BS supporters attitudes together made me wanna VET him real good.
Before that I thought he was a pretty good guy like everyone else did.
Though was always going to vote for HRC!

READY FOR HRC!!!

[SaschaHM]

41. I've lurched a little right (in execution)...

due to the fact that Bernie has brought these issues to the front and we're actually considering them.

Take free college for instance. On paper, I'd be all for that. However, now that I think about the wide ranging tax increases needed to pay for such a thing, I've moved toward debt-free college instead. I'm not anti-taxing people, but I do think there is a bit of unfairness in taxing the poor to pay for middle class kids to go to college when families' that haven't been dealt such a bad hand could feasible contribute a portion and the student could pay off a small (ish) loan in the future. There's just too many disparities in the access to decent k-12 education that I as an Southern black democrat can't endorse a plan that puts considerable resources at the top when they should go towards the bottom. Everyone should be able to afford college, but everyone should also be able to get the k-12 education that prepares them for college. And since you can't tax people too much, I'd rather put more money into the latter, and work out an income/need-based (debt-free) system for the former. I'd describe myself as a pragmatic racial progressive.

[Eko]

43. I'm for Sanders for president.

But Clinton will make a fine president if Sanders looses the nomination. But, I get so pissed seeing the bull posts about Clinton like she and the DNC closed voting stations in Arizona or got Sanders supporters registration changed. Seriously, the person posting that has to have no clue of how things work, even basic things about voting and registering, and to them its the Golden Truth!. Every person I know (besides me and perhaps one other) personally who supports Sanders cant stand Clinton. The reasons they give me are either Republican talking points, easily debunked lies or that she cant be trusted because a lot of other people think that she cant be trusted. I feel like the dude watching Charlie Daniels play because he is a good musician lost in a sea of confederate flags thinking "where the fuck am I" with a sinking feeling in my stomach and a strong desire to gtfo. Ive talked to quite a few Sanders supporters on here that are cool, but it seems overwhelming quite often. All I can say is take heart, don't let others change your viewpoint because of their actions. Don't play their game because in the end all it will be is your game and how you played it.