This message was self-deleted by its author

[Doctor_J]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Doctor_J) on Fri Sep 13, 2013, 09:28 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Aristus]

1. No age limit. None.

Last edited Thu Sep 12, 2013, 06:03 PM - Edit history (1)

Sexy is sexy.

I had a patient once whose wife was in her late 70's. She was just breathtakingly beautiful. Astonishingly so. I didn't find her sexually attractive, because I don't think in those terms when dealing with patients or their family members. But I saw incredible beauty.

OTOH, I've got a raging crush on Helen Mirren. She could give lessons in sexy to women 1/3 her age...

On edit: That's UPPER age limit.

I've said in other posts that for me, any women younger than me is really too young. I feel creepy finding myself attracted to women younger than about 35. I'm 44.

[Denninmi]

7. Yeah, me too.

For me, about 40 would be the lower limit. Obviously 18 is the lower legal limit.

[Kali]

2. how old is the pedophile?

the age spread makes a difference too

[In_The_Wind]

3. Old enough that you wouldn't be mistaken for her father.

[Warren DeMontague]

4. Let's put it this way: When I was 12, I found 12 year old girls attractive.

Now my lower limit seems to be 30, in most cases*

I think if everyone is a consenting adult, age differences, while externally weird to some folks, are not that big deal and no one else's business. Also, obviously, as people get older larger age spreads don't matter. For instance, 60-50 is not as jarring as 30-20, etc.

...I think if you're the guy who is 50 and is constantly going to clubs to hit on 20 year old women, no amount of online rationalizing will remove the air of creep from your deal.


* Yes. I admit it, I find Emily Ratajowski attractive, and she's like 22 or 23. So sue me.

[Doctor_J]

5. That about sums it up, I guess

Beauty is beauty, be it Helen Mirren or Diane Lane Amanda Seyfried or anyone in between.

I don't know anyone in my age group who hits on 20 year olds in bars or anywhere else. One has had a few dalliances with his undergrad students though. That's creepy regardless of how it started.

[Warren DeMontague]

6. Helen Mirren is gorgeous.

She was gorgeous when she was younger, too.

[Doctor_J]

8. And she seems to have done it naturally

Mercedes Ruehl is another 60ish hottie, with terrific head of hair and latino features.



But rumor has it the body is refurbished.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

10. A friend of mine worked as an assistant to her on some movie or tv show....

Her quote to me was "She could teach you boys a thing or two"

[Doctor_J]

12. i would pay handsomely for those lessons

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

9. I guess I feel lucky I'm generally attracted to older women

The most I will ever say about a teenage girl is that "She's going to grow up to be a very attractive woman".

Aside from a girlfriend who was 18 when I was 27 (and yeah, I knew her when she was 17 and we would have hooked up then, but I steered clear of that situation) I've never really had the issue.

[lumberjack_jeff]

11. Consulting the expert

[Warren DeMontague]

14. And yet,

you responded to the OP.

Look, even stupid questions can get answered. Seriously, WTF.

[bettyellen]

23. because it's a creepy fucking OP worthy of an MRA site or 4chan? Derp.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. My 1st response contained the word "creep". So would you categorize this statement as "creepy", too?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125525338#post1

I would.

Where was the cavalcade of outrage? That's some sick shit. And yet, there was silence.

[bettyellen]

25. at 1 am on a Tuesday- the OP was even sicker shit (because it is a real thing) and got few responses

that's indicative of exactly nothing.

[Warren DeMontague]

26. zzzzzzzzzzzzz

every single damn person who responded here said "adults".

[bettyellen]

28. it was the OP itself - that no one said "ewww creepy" and ignored the creepiness was the issue.

Looking the other way at creepiness is creepy too. Too many men don't get that part.
Flew right over your head, eh?

[Warren DeMontague]

29. And no one said "ewww creepy" to a post advocating the sexual mutilation of teenage boys, either.

Which proves something real egregious, obviously.

[bettyellen]

30. only one person responded, doubt anyone took the castration remark seriously, and

it looks like people were creeped out and didn;t want to engage. No one joined in as if it was okay, did they?
I think it was a fucked up reaction to a very fucked up situation described in the OP.

The statement about oogling young girls- what do you think that was about? Something that is actually a serious issue for many women as opposed to - guys getting castrated by women. Which is incredibly fucking rare.
So, you could get real about it, and admit that thread was creepy and that kind of creepiness is way too common and overlooked- even at DU. Or you could go piss and moan about castration instead, as an excuse to look the other way. Which is a shitty and gutless way to go- but at least you won;t piss off the bros -right?

[Warren DeMontague]

31. There was no "statement about oogling young girls" in the OP. I gave the OP the benefit of the doubt

that he meant adult interactions, albeit those of the may-december sort.

Yes, "oogling" young girls is creepy. Adults who are "attracted" to people under 18 have a serious fucking mental problem. These things go without saying, as does the idea that committing mass acts of sexual mutilation on teenage boys is a bad idea.

I'm personally done churning the outrage butter with this thread, though. I've said all I need to say.

I have no doubt that it will provide at least a couple months' supply, so you can thank the OP for that.

[Sissyk]

37. Here you go!

At Fri Sep 13, 2013, 08:40 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

My 1st response contained the word "creep". So would you categorize this statement as "creepy", too?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=10049

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Calling out a Duer not in a debate by linking to an old post, rather than engaging with the person he is having the conversation with is uncalled for, all the more so given the fact he's defending an OP asking about being attracted to underage girls. How can defending that stuff by okay on DU?

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Sep 13, 2013, 08:47 PM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Wheeeeee! Somebody's pissed at the Men's group. Again. That poster isn't the OP the alerter is upset about, maybe they should 'engage' with the person who posted it instead of Warren D, who as far as I've seen hasn't defended anything. Try harder.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: just calm down everyone....
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Stay out of groups that you don't agree with. This is a bogus alert just to try to get Warren knocked out of it. Not hard to figure out who alerted either. Leave.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Warren DeMontague]

38. Like I said, outrage butter.

Churn, Churn, Churn!

[seabeyond]

15. well, this OP didnt pass the "not creepy" part. i mean... how early can one lust over a little girl.

really? no touching. just lust... leer??? at a child.

some men say, once she hits puberty, free game. you have heard that one, i am sure. well, some girls hit it at ten. so i guess at ten, lusting/leering at a girl is .... ya know, ok. as long as you are not touching.

[Warren DeMontague]

16. Mission accomplished!

So since you've established that the asking of the question is fuel for another round, maybe you can point out which of the answers (besides yours) actually say any of that shit in your reply?

[seabeyond]

17. i am so beyond disgusted. and that NONE of you MEN had the guts to just shut it the fuck down....

[Warren DeMontague]

19. Like I said, mission accomplished.

And if no one had responded, that would have been another outrage, right?

It's a win-win. See, I know how this shit works, particularly with the way crap gets deliberately misrepresented.

I'm no longer a host of this group, in case you haven't been paying attention. I got sick of exactly this sort of bullshit game-playing. So it's not my problem.

[Warren DeMontague]

18. So how do you feel about this post? Do you agree with it? Is it "okay on a progressive board"?

would you categorize a statement like this as "creepy"?


http://www.democraticunderground.com/125525338#post1

[Warren DeMontague]

20. Do I need to go find the cricket noise now?

Or should I have lunch first.

[opiate69]

32. Damn.. that's a long lunch..

[Warren DeMontague]

21. You're well on your way to the next step in the process, which is to make up a bunch of egregious

things that no one has actually said, and then pretend that those are the responses to the (pretty clearly trolling, IMHO) question.

However, if someone asks a question "Is it okay to chop peoples' heads off" and everyone who answers says "fuck no" it's pretty disingenuous to pretend that somehow that is a mass apologia for head-chopping.

[pnwmom]

22. Pedophilic is pre-adolescent. But it's creepy when she's under 18 if you're more

than five years older.

[Xithras]

27. Attractive or sexually attractive? Nobody should lust after a child.

There's a difference between finding someone attractive (you think they're pretty) and finding someone sexually attractive (they turn you on sexually). I recognized that some of my daughters friends were attractive when they were 15-16, but there was no sexual attraction. They were pretty, and that was it. Nowadays I consider some of my now-20 year old daughters friends to be sexually attractive, and I had countless young college students in my lectures over the years who I considered to be sexually attractive, but they were all adults. Young adults, but still adults.

If you're lusting after kids, it's ALWAYS creepy. When you're talking about adults, creepiness is more a matter of behavior than thoughts. There's nothing wrong with recognizing that a young woman is sexually attractive, but there is something VERY wrong with communicating that attraction in a way she dislikes. Most 20 year old women don't want to be hit on by 45 year old men. Appreciating beauty is one thing, but when it devolves into flirting, leering, or catcalls, you've crossed the border into Creepytown.

And never forget the "Man Law". My dad taught me this when I was a teenager. If you want to know the minimum age that you can flirt with without being "creepy", follow this rule: Divide your age in half, rounding down if needed, and add 7.

In other words, if you're 13, you shouldn't be hitting on girls under 13.

At 16, your minimum is 15.

If you're 20, your bottom age is 17.

If you're 30, leave them alone if they're under 22.

If you're 60, you can flirt with 37 year olds.

Anything under that and you're opening yourself up to accusations of pervyness. While love knows no age boundaries, young women on the street don't like it when little old men try to pick them up.

[Doctor_J]

33. Yeah, that seems like a decent rule of thumb.

I am old and monogamous and have been as such for decades (monogamous, not old). In fact I have dropped a couple of friends due to their cheating on their wives, who were also friends. I also knew a HS teacher/coach who was a serial dater of his former students. He would usually wait until they were 2 years removed from HS to date them (around 20-21). He was still doing this well into his 40's. I thought that was pretty, er, unseemly, and talked to each of my daughters about him when they were attending that HS. So it's not my style, but being somewhat of a keep-to-myself person (actually quite straight-laced in my own life - liberal when it comes to other's lives) I figured, well, it's his thing, and everyone is of the age of consent, so...?

I didn't anticipate the onslaught from the other group, and can't fathom what this has to do with MRA, but like I say I am pretty open-minded wrt what other do with their private lives.

Apparently I have opened myself up to accusations of perviness just by bring up the subject of May-December lust (or March-October). C'est la guerre

[Warren DeMontague]

34. Okay, so since you're here, you should understand that asking that question in ANY form

leaves the door open to accusations of creepiness.

I mean, the shitstorm was entirely predictable- right up to the combination of yowling outrage over remonstrations that people should have made to you but didn't, or didn't quickly enough, along with the flagrant just making shit up out of whole cloth and then pretending as if they were things people actually said in response... (an old favorite)

but that said, we have concepts like "consenting adults" for a reason, as much as some love to pretend that any adult who does stuff that pisses them off or they don't agree with, deserves to be treated like a child with no agency who can't possibly consent.

You would do well to make it extra clear in the future when you're asking these sorts of questions, that you're clearly talking about consenting adults and not trying to justify or make some sideways argument for child abuse.

[Doctor_J]

35. Thanks

I was absolutely NOT making any argument, implied or otherwise, for child abuse. I was thinking more of the Seinfeld-Soshana situation - creepy? Lucky bastard? Good for him, not my thing? What about Michael & Catherine? Murphy Jones and Emma?

Sorry, members of HoF and Feminists. I was not condoning and would not condone or suggest pedophilia. I was mostly just wondering aloud on a pretty free-thinking site what are the bounds of acceptable/normal physical relationships. I am a lifelong feminist, husband of feminist, father of feminists. Apologies for the crude approach to what I intended to be a discussion point for seasoned, sane, healthy men. If you would like the OP deleted to clear out the stench, say the word and it will be gone.

[Warren DeMontague]

36. If you dont self delete, it will be a topic for probably 3+ months.

If you do self-delete it, you might be able to cut that down to two.

Piece of advice? If you do, make sure you copy the EXACT text of the OP into a reply first, so no one can later on try to act like it said something specific that it did not.


Not that anyone here would ever do such a thing