No, homophobia has no place in MY conception of masculinity.

[Bonobo]

I recognize that I shame the same issues and struggles with other men whatever their sexual preference may be and I think that can be seen quite clearly here in our group.

A more interesting question to me is: Why is that a topic for discussion in "History of Feminism"?

is the juxtaposition of masculinity and its cultural permutations so central to the concept of Feminism? Or is it just popcorn fodder?

Perhaps, dare I suggest, that the continued obsession with issues like that may not, in fact, be all that helpful or healthy?

[Warren DeMontague]

1. Not at all.

I think that some men running very old, outdated scripts in their heads may have once thought it does.

But then, some other people running very old, outdated scripts in their heads may not realize how much the world has changed since, say, 1974.

[Major Nikon]

9. Another outdated script...

[Behind the Aegis]

2. I don't see how it could.

Here's what I see and how I feel, this is just another example of discrimination against one group of people being HIJACKED by another group. Does misogyny and anti-female sexism have a part in homophobia? It sure does, but the fact remains the targets are HOMOSEXUALS and the sex of said group doesn't really matter, though it should be noted most anti-GLBT crimes are against gay MEN. If some asshole is beating me down is it because of anti-female feelings? Could be, but what is for damn sure is the beating is happening because I am GAY! Also, the very premise excludes lesbians on some level. Just like the right wing, there are those on the left who basically see it as "homosexuals and lesbians", with the latter being 'less offensive' than the former.

BTW, a small point, but it really chaps my ass, it is not sexual preference, it is sexual orientation. I know it sounds overly PC, but it does mean two different things to me and many GLBT persons. You all know my sexual orientation, but I doubt anyone here knows my sexual preference(s).

[Bonobo]

4. Sorry. I actually wrote orientation first.

Then I had a brain fart and stopped writing and someone in my head said "No, dummy, it's not orientation, it's "preference"! I was trying to use the correct term, but failed. Sorry.

[Warren DeMontague]

5. Excellent points.

As always.

[lumberjack_jeff]

3. Because their world view desperately needs the legitimacy...

... conferred by people who suffer actual oppression.

[sibelian]

6. ... hence homophobia being "a special kind of misogyny".

What sort of person is jealous of another's oppression?

[lumberjack_jeff]

7. +1 n/t

[Bonobo]

8. Victim Envy. nt

[sibelian]

10. It's *weird*.

One day one of them will explain to me how it isn't revoltingly homophobic. "all those times you got beat up for being gay were really all about MEEEEEE" - it's foul.

There's a thread on discussionist right now where old-timer iverglas (no longer a DU res) refers to the conditions faced by black people and gay people as "slights". The inverted commas are hers.

I'm like: do I actually have to go through all this? So when were women chemically castrated? Or banned from adopting kids? Or getting married? Or rounded up and put in concentration camps? When was being female illegal? Where are the organisations organising reparative therapy for being a woman, trying to convert them into being men? Where are the women being hanged for being female? Where are the people blaming tornadoes on women? Where was the church wandering around claiming "God Hates Women?" And they think all this has something to do with misogyny?! NO. It's a failure of society to understand MEN.

And I know exactly what the response will be, which is some lame gibberish about there are women in these categories too, all of which get there through processes that have nothing to do with being female and are explicable in totally incidental ways.

The only thing making me angrier than these people is the idiotic gay people (mostly far too young to have any direct emotional experience of how properly socially accepted homophobia used to actually operate) who buy into this crap.