How do we advance men's liberation without making women feel like their rights are being infringed?

[Zalatix]

How can men speak about the injustices that they face without alienating women?

Or is this even possible?

[lumberjack_jeff]

1. There are two feminist schools of thought

a) "we're about equality.... for me."
b) "we're about advocacy for women."

I find the latter more honest, but it requires a "no" answer to your latter question.

After beating myself up about your first question for a long time, I finally asked myself why I cared, and realized that I probably shouldn't. Like Obama negotiating with congress, I shouldn't propose my starting position in a way that it already represents compromise with the other party.

Women will aggressively advocate for themselves. Men should aggressively advocate for themselves. All is right with the world.

[Deep13]

2. Liberation from what exactly (not sarcastic)?

The burden of the assumptions that real men are fearless, unfailing providers, tough and all that macho crap?

[Zalatix]

3. Yes, that.

But, in general, freedom from arbitrary gender roles.

It's a sign of immaturity in a society when, for instance, people still look at men who stay home and take care of their kids as "odd". News stories about this still keep popping up. We haven't done our job until no one cares who stays home and watches the kids, as long as someone does it and does it right.

[Behind the Aegis]

4. Do you not see those as burdens?

Personally, I do. Just as there are assumptions that "real" women are delicate, sweet, kind, petite, etc., the ones about men can be just as destructive. Even if something is stated as a "positive," it doesn't mean it is so.

How often do men ignore pain and going to a doctor because it would be seen as "unmanly?" These male stereotypes have real consequences.

[lumberjack_jeff]

5. Absolutely right.

Men encounter a very strict set of social expectations, often enshrined in law.

[Deep13]

7. Sure I do.

People think I'm unmanly because I have an anxiety disorder.

[redqueen]

6. This is the reason I posted that Tough Guise clip.

I had hoped it would start this line of discussion.

[mistertrickster]

73. I'm glad you posted here.

It frankly steamed me off when you posted the following in response to a London survey on rape victims and their responsibility:

redqueen
7. I doubt the results would be much different among DUers. nt

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11391727#post7

REALLY. And you posted it in "the safe space" Feminism Group so that one couldn't even challenge you on it.

I posted a poll asking people if a women did any of the things mentioned in the London study, would she then be responsible for her rape?

SIXTY RESPONSES AND ALL OF THEM SAID NO.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002280672

You stand corrected, and you're welcome.

[redqueen]

77. Do you remember the Elephant Man rape story which was posted in DU?

It was noteworthy IMO because in that thread, a DUer said that we should hold off on speculating about the case (when do we ever do that?) because there was skepticism about her claims, and then went on to share the basis of that skepticism (her age and the fact that she knew the victim).

Do you recall that? And how many people challenged her statements? And how many others defended her and her statements?

And how many posted that we should really be more concerned about the men, anyway?

It was that discussion that was the basis for my observation that the results wouldn't be much different here.


Sorry but you cannot compare the results. These Havens' questions were part of a much longer survey, and they were anonymous. Your survey was not anonymous, and they were not all clear and absolute "no" votes, either.

[mistertrickster]

78. Irrelevant. You stereotyped the whole website.

I don't care what ONE poster said (from Jamaica no less).

I quantified the evidence and you were not only wrong, you were out of line.

[redqueen]

80. I didn't stereotype anything.

I made an observation based on the response to those comments about that story.

You didn't quantify anything. Like I said, you cannot compare an anonymous survey with one that is held in a forum where regular members will be seeing the public responses.

Furthermore you misrepresented the results, because as I stated, there were some less than solid "no" votes.

[mistertrickster]

86. How many were unequivocal no votes

and how many were qualified no votes?

And more importantly does that match the London study?

Answer: the DU community is far, far more supportive of women who've been raped than the general population.

That's like so freakin' obvious to everyone except the folks who feel it works to their benefit to say otherwise . . .

[redqueen]

89. Did I not explain clearly enough about being triggered?

Do you think it somehow works to my benefit to feel that this place is too risky to visit?

Do you know what PTSD is? Do you give even half a shit about nuance? Empathy? Honest communication? (That would be the kind *without* spin and axe-grinding.)

Why are you grinding this axe, anyway? Do you feel it's incumbent upon you to provide a male counterpoint to the mythical axe-grinding feminist that others are so fond of grinding their particular axes against?

[mistertrickster]

91. Being "triggered"?

Are you kidding me?

"I didn't mean to hit her officer but she wouldn't stop crying . . . "

You mean triggered like that?

*****

As for why I'm grinding this axe, I feel it's pretty shitty to come to a Website like this one that hosts you and encourages you and then to turn around and tell people that they are all in need of your enlightenment.

That's what's steaming me off.

[redqueen]

92. Why do you persist in the spinning?

When did I allege that everyone needed my enlightenment? Do you think that I'm operating under the delusion that I'm the only feminist here?

WTF? Seriously.. WTFingF?

Just google rape ptsd trigger and read. I'm done attempting to have a discussion with you because I don't perceive that you're interested in having a serious conversation in good faith.

[mistertrickster]

93. You claim that your words don't mean what they mean.

But I'm the one with the "good faith" problem. I don't see that.

As far as PTSD goes, yes, I know what it is. My SON has it from serving in Iraq, but oddly that kind of PTSD doesn't seem to be on anybody's radar over in the Feminist group.

[redqueen]

94. "oddly that kind of PSTD doesn't seem to be on anybody's radar over in the Feminist group."

What on earth would make you think that?

And if you're familiar with triggers why did you feign ignorance before?

You are so very clearly not interested in an honest discussion.

[bemildred]

14. Anything which compels you to be what your are not is a burden.

Anything which compels you to reject what you are is a burden. All stereotypes are wrong, the question is how wrong? If they are not too wrong, they can sometimes be useful as heuristics, rules of thumb, otherwise they just provide the illusion of thought without any useful content.

[seabeyond]

8. i really try not to come in this forum, but this post is really about us.

and i think this is so important to say.

feminists, me, i am a mom with two sons. i have a husband i love very much. a father, two brothers and 5 nephews. two nephews i am close with and are dependent on me as the mom figure. all of these men and boys are very special and i love them, care for them and want the best for them.

as a feminist, why would their interests NOT be the highest priority for me. they are no less and they are not loved less, than myself, or the few nieces i have in my life.

what is healthy and balanced, grounded, authentic for men, well only enhance a womans life. and the same works the other way.

allowing each individual to have the control over their own empowerment is beneficial to all.

it is only when we try to make one less, that things become imbalanced and issues arise.

in the many gender issue threads i have been in, my sole purpose is the health for all. the best for all. because ultimately that creates a win win win. win for me (woman). win for you (man). and win for us (society). i hope one never finds in my post that i have ever deviated from that goal. it is the goal i hear from most all feminist. i think the message is often ignored or contaminated to continue a battle between the two genders. i think it is ignored to create feminists as the evil of all evils. i cannot imagine any feminist being successful without the belief that we all must be equal.

raising two boys and spending a lifetime with mostly boys and men, i see a lot of issues with the male gender (as i see a lot with the female gender). i address them often, because without those healed and recognized, women dont have much of a chance, either. it benefits us all.

now, i will try to stay out of your guys business, again, lol. but, it is something i feel so strongly about. this issue is my top priority in my RL today. and i couldnt let it go unsaid. and i was not hearing it from others.

[bemildred]

12. +1. nt

[tech_smythe]

50. +1

If there was a stereotype about feminists I wish I could push it would be you.
strong, independent, mindful of both sides.

I love reading your posts

[mistertrickster]

74. OMGOD! SHE VIOLATED OUR SAFE SPACE!

Unlike you folks, we're not going to have a shit-conniption over it.

[Warren DeMontague]

95. "2319! We have a code 2319!"

[seabeyond]

99. grinnin

you have such a knack for this....

[Warren DeMontague]

104. It's one of a long list of skills I have that are completely un-marketable

I'm really good on trivia night, too.

[seabeyond]

100. lol

i went away for a moment and you seem to have gotten all kinds of activity in this thread. i kept checking to make sure i was in the right forum, lol lol. ah well.

[seabeyond]

98. was i respectful? that is my intent. thank you. i am glad you are fine with you.

and you also recognize there are quite a few men in our forum right now, and a man host, so we dont have so much of a problem with it, either.... isnt that great? i think so

[mistertrickster]

101. I believe you.

There's no problem posting at the Fem Group as long as you agree entirely with the most radical positions.

Any man who thinks exactly like you and redqueen and iverglas will be embraced as a true believer. Anyone who disagrees in the smallest degree is a troll who must be silenced.

See for instance 8 or 12 recent posts of women who support feminism, but in their words, "don't feel welcome."

You know, Stalin permitted free speech too . . . as long as it was speech he agreed with.

[seabeyond]

102. i am sorry you feel that way. nt

[bemildred]

9. I disagree that there is any intrinsic conflict of interest between men and women,

Or men's rights and women's rights.

[mistertrickster]

75. Actually, I agree with that. nt

[bemildred]

105. Cool.

We are all in this together, nothing much to lose by acting like it.

There are lots of issues in law and social expectations, but they are arbitrary. We can do what we like, so why not work together and change the system? Men aren't going to get far without women on board, & vice versa.

[petronius]

10. As a man, I don't feel alienated when women speak of inequalities they face unless

it's couched as "You are..." or "Men are..."; i.e., broad-brush attack-type language. But that's not alienation from the topic as much as from the speaker.

I'd also say that responding to a discussion of injustices faced by women with a men's counter-example ("Yes, but..." language) is not likely to lead to productive conversation.

Avoiding those two structures is nearly all that's necessary, IMO, to speak of real injustices faced by men.


More generally, I can not recall ever feeling alienated, as a man, by women speaking of injustice or expecting their rights and I've never felt that my rights would be diminished as a consequence. So if a man (and I really don't mean this as a reference to the OP or any DUers) is having the problem of alienating women or causing them to feel infringed on, I'd wonder if he doesn't need to reconsider what exactly he's perceiving as injustices against himself or us...

[bemildred]

11. Well said. nt

[Zalatix]

13. Actually, what happens more often is the reverse

Soon as a man talks about injustices faced by men, he gets told, by women and men alike, that there is no such thing as injustice against males, or the whole "but women are oppressed, too". (As if he didn't know that already.)

[lumberjack_jeff]

15. Yes and no.

When someone complains about their lot in life being made arbitrarily difficult by law or society, I'm a good listener and often a good advocate.

When someone talks about equality, I'm going to try to evaluate the claim ("yes but&quot . Equality is a math expression; you can't appraise the situation without considering both sides of the equation. Thus, when someone says "pay is unequal, women make X% of what men do", it is not only relevant but logically mandatory to observe that men work more hours in more dangerous jobs with more experience with more unemployment and are willing to negotiate for the best deal.

All too often, this results in accusations of threadjacking, when it's really not, it's evaluating the claim.

But the worst alienating conversation tactic is "men think...".

Setting aside issues of fairness and equity, this is what has happened to you in the last 40 years.


Men graduating from high school will be paid less than their grandfathers.

[stevenleser]

27. Unfortunately, that happens a lot, even here on DU

Specifically "You are..." or "Men are..."; i.e., broad-brush attack-type language.

For instance: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=153612

"Then came reliable birth control and women gained a greater sense of confidence. The penis essentially lost some power. That fact has not escaped men and they continue to cling to the idea that there is uncontrollable, inevitable power and superiority vested in the penis. "
----------------------------------------

[Warren DeMontague]

28. I think sometimes it's better to just let the axe grinders get whatever it is out of their system.

It's completely bugfuck insane, and goes against anything resembling reality--- (men are against birth control? Didn't a man INVENT the birth control pill?) but I think at this point there is a group deliberately trying to provoke a reaction.

Then, alert on the response, and when a jury doesn't perform to their specifications, they can use that as more proof of the 'rampant sexism on DU'. Rinse. Repeat.

If someone said anything remotely like that 'bout women, of course, we'd have 2 full weeks of shit-throwing temper tantrums in H/M over it.

[mistertrickster]

82. And may God save the poor SOB who rises to take the bait

on their "safe site" groups page.

The most scurrilous charges can be leveled against the ENTIRE D_U_ COMMUNITY, and if you respond to defend yourself, it's a violation of their SOP and you're an asshole forever.

[Warren DeMontague]

96. Er... You go in, if you must

I'll wait outside.

[mistertrickster]

97. Note to self -- you can't get in a bar fight

if you don't go to a bar.

Thanks for that.

[Warren DeMontague]

29. Phallophobia.

Seriously, without getting too psychoanalytical about it-- there seems to be an awful lot of simple fear and loathing of the disembodied penis, the evil penis-as-oppressor, the great penile conspiracy, etc. etc. It would be funny, from a surrealist perspective, if it wasn't also a little sad. Andrea Dworkin, the great patryn saint of the 2nd Wavers, literally believed she was being pursued by giant invisible penii by the end of her sad, mentally ill life.

If I were to run around constantly ranting about the evil great toothed vaginas in the world and how they were conspiring to oppress me and bite my dingus off, people would say... "okay, er, vagina dentata-guy... therapy might be warranted".. But similar gibberish about the nefarious plotting phallus conspiracy goes by with nary a raised eyebrow.

Interestingly enough, it doesn't seem on the whole to be Lesbian women who have these, er, issues.... but rather hetero women of a certain demographic who, while being wired for attraction to men, have simultaneously been fed a whole bunch of Womens Studies' gibberish about the evil of the penis. So it's a love/hate dynamic, and I think like HAL in 2001: A Space Odyssey, the conflicting programming instructions cause all sorts of fucking havoc.

[stevenleser]

30. Did you check my responses to that?

And in the last response to me, the poster said in effect "OK, what should I be saying".

Unbelievable.

[Warren DeMontague]

31. I did. I haven't had time to read the whole subthread, yet... but as I'm sure you're aware

those threads are pretty much designed to be logic traps- there's no way you can respond to them without being accused of doing exactly what the thread implies.

So, fuck it. Not gonna play.

[mistertrickster]

79. Okay, I'm laughing my ass off right now.

Phallophobia!

That's freaking hilarious . . .

[mistertrickster]

76. What's even worse is when the hosts of the Feminist Group talk about DU

and how it's no better than anywhere else (re-women's rights).

WTF, are you kidding me?

[redqueen]

81. Look, if I personally, literally said, verbatim "no better than anywhere else"

which I do not concede that I did, but it's not impossible... I hope that you will understand that I was badly triggered by that "hey let's all calm down because she's probably lying" shit that was so sickeningly cheered and backed up by many people here.

I know very well that it's better than many other sites.

[mistertrickster]

83. Wow, your almost apology is almost accepted. nt

[redqueen]

84. Why should I apologize for something that for all I know

you've misquoted?

[mistertrickster]

85. See below--

redqueen
7. I doubt the results would be much different among DUers. nt

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11391727#post7

Maybe it's unfair of me to use your exact words as evidence. (sarcasm)

[redqueen]

87. You didn't, though. You added your spin.

Maybe you should consider dealing with what people actually say instead of what you want to see and get defensive about.

My words: "I doubt the results would be much different among DUers."

Your spin: "... the hosts of the Feminist Group talk about DU and how it's no better than anywhere else (re-women's rights)."

I trust you are able to discern the difference between those two statements. I even added some emphasis to highlight the words that should make it easy to figure out.

[mistertrickster]

90. Okay, you might be right.

Let's see what others think.

Making it into its own OP . . .

[Warren DeMontague]

16. Duct Tape.

I dunno, seemed like a manly answer.

[Taverner]

17. Speak of specific issues like custody rights

I know on this issue, almost all of DU would agree

[Warren DeMontague]

18. I'm not sure men need to be "liberated", but I also don't think we need to apologize for being men.

Maybe that's what we need to be liberated from; the mistaken idea that there's something inherently wrong, or defective, with men or the majority of men.

[ElboRuum]

19. I think they do.

All people should be free to choose what role they wish to take in life and to do so without being stigmatized by a society with preconceived notions of which roles are theirs, whatever the criteria society my base that assignation upon. Men need liberation in that they are severely restricted in the roles that they can assume and still avoid social stigma.

Moreover, men who do assume traditional roles by choice in such an environment shouldn't be looked upon as defective.

There is nothing wrong with men except the perception thereof.

[Warren DeMontague]

20. I agree. I think we're actually saying pretty much the same thing

just in different words.

[lumberjack_jeff]

22. My initial reaction was the same as yours.

But I now think that "liberation" was exactly the right word. Ironically, my initial reaction to the word is the product of a cultural expectation of men. Exactly the kind of liberation that ElboRoom is talking about.

[Warren DeMontague]

21. First off, we need to understand that there are SOME women who will never be happy with men, period.

It doesn't matter... man is a clearly misogynist a-hole, yeah, he's a clearly misogynist a-hole. He tries to be nice, he's the dreaded, loathsome "nice guy". He voices an opinion, he must be repeatedly shown how he is is simply wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. If he doesn't say anything, he's passive-aggressively resisting improvement. If he's a hippie new agey guy, there's something horribly wrong with that. Basically, it doesn't fucking matter what he does, it's gonna be the wrong thing, and there will be lengthy diatribes full of authoritative-sounding gibberish on various feminist blogs explaining exactly why no matter what this poor fuck does, he's doing it wrong.

Particularly if he's attracted to women, because that in and of itself is the #1 violation of everything that is good and decent in the universe. There is simply no way for a man to acceptably be attracted to women, to find women attractive, and certainly not to express that harmful hurtful objectificatin' attitude of entitlement.

Of course, legend has it that there are a breed of mythically perfect men out there, lurking in the storied regions of the anecdotal tales of certain internet posters. These men are never actually seen or heard from directly, but tales are told far and wide of their incredibly unattainable status as the few, the proud, the maybe 6 testicle-laden humans on the planet who are actually getting it right. They are invariably endlessly supportive and agreeable to every last axiom and tenet of Feminist dogma, they NEVER look at porn, and they provide perfect sexual satisfaction to their mates even though their mates aren't really that into sex and sex is way too important in our society anyway and who needs sex since we went without it for 10 years but OUR SEX LIFE IS GREAT!

But for the purposes of our study here, men are always wrong and simply need to stop trying not to be wrong, or they need to try harder not to be wrong, but either way whatever they do it will still be wrong.

[lumberjack_jeff]

23. It is important for us individually to figure out what we want to be liberated from

It's useful for men collectively to discuss ways to do that.

For purposes of the OP, for good or ill, it doesn't matter what women think. You don't need anyone's approval to seek a fulfilling life for yourself and to advocate the same for your sons and grandsons.

For me a big liberating first step was acknowledging that attraction is powerful leverage to get me to subordinate my interests. Feminine disapproval is something we are hard wired to avoid.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. the way I read the OP, it was asking in terms of womens' feelings, so that was where I framed it

from.

My own personal belief is that it's best for me: as a man, as a human, as a bipedal carbon-based life form--- to try to live as authentically as possible, to remain true to who I am, to avoid artifice and pretense.

I was never someone much given to worrying about what other people thought-- that's one of the reasons I was always drawn to the West Coast; people are much less up in each others' business than, say, on the East Coast IMHO-- so I suppose it's not as much of an issue for me as it might be for some people.

[Warren DeMontague]

26. It seems to be axiomatic in certain corners of the Blogosphere: The Dude Is Always Wrong™

Even when we have to grit our teeth and admit, grudgingly, that every word coming out of The Dude's Dooodely mouth is, technically, ideologically unimpeachable, that it has sailed through every Dworkin-MacKinnon-Male Gaze-Patriarchy Blamin'-Heteronormative Gender Bias Challengin' hoop with flying Feministe cred credentials... That if it was something that, say, came from the wise heads of the Smith College Womens Department, we would be out right fucking now nailing it to Frathouse Doors like we were Martyn Luthyr....

The fact that said words came out of a dread dooodely mouth means we must immediately (we must!!) begin a rigorous examination of what, exactly, is wrong, and why do we consider something that has the taint of dude-mouth on it to be reflexively right..

Yes, while we grudgingly agree with the gibberish said dude has spouted back to us, after hearing our own, and we admire his ability to absorb the fonts of our wisdom (except he's a doodely doood so remember to take 'admire' with yon graine of salt) there MUST be something wrong with what he said- and him- and even US! for not more immediately and forcefully challenging the right of a dooodely dude to be anything so closely resembling 'right'.

Remember, dooodely dudes are never more wrong than when they're 'right'. But they're wrong when they're wrong, too. They're just pretty much wrong all the time.

[ZombieHorde]

25. What issue did you have in mind? nt

[MineralMan]

32. Not with bad humor in GD. That doesn't work, I'm certain.

[Zalatix]

33. That thread wasn't an attack on anyone.

Simple as that.

[MineralMan]

34. And it was hidden by a jury. Simple as that.

I was surprised by the jury's ruling, but it was misogynistic flamebait, only thinly disguised as humor.

[Zalatix]

35. What attack was made against women? Can you show any?

How were women attacked?

[MineralMan]

36. Stereotyping. Very transparent.

Your joke was almost pure stereotyping. Much like the OP in this thread. That is seen as an attack by many people, including me. I wasn't the one who alerted, though, and nobody who had commented in the thread could be on the jury. Some random DUers made the decision. It's worth thinking about, I think.

[Zalatix]

37. But what about women did I attack? I was making fun of societal rules.

What women's rights did I attack? What trait of women did I attack? I attacked... what, exactly?

Nothing I said was even untrue. In fact the responses pretty much turned art into life.

No one has ever posted a thread on the DU like "narcissistic women have higher stress hormones". But no one blinks twice at "narcissistic men have higher stress hormones". It's PC to go on about men's flaws here, but not women's. Show where I am wrong. Show how this is an attack on women. What am I attacking? What about women am I insulting?

[MineralMan]

38. Has there been a scientific study on narcissistic women?

Not that I know of. Actually nothing you said was true. It was general commentary about men and women. It was also incorrect, since you generalized.

You may not be able to see it, but you can see it in the responses to your attempt at humor. And the negative responses were not just from women. They were from men, as well.

Generalized statements and references are stereotypical, by definition. That's why your GD post was hidden by a jury, and I guarantee that jury was a mixed one, with both men and women on it. It's something to think about.

I'm a man. I've been in relationships with several women, and know many more as friends. I've never been treated in the way you joked about.

[Zalatix]

39. All of what I said is true. Every last bit of it.

You admitted you've never seen a scientific study on narcissistic women. Studies like that simply aren't done.

No threads exist here that talk about the ordeals that are specific to men's experiences. I am perfectly right about that. The people I pissed off on the GD were people who didn't like to hear that.

[MineralMan]

40. Whatever.

You're incorrect, but you're welcome to your opinion.

[Zalatix]

41. If I'm incorrect then find an example of

threads that talk about the ordeals that are specific to men's experiences.

I'll wait.

[MineralMan]

42. You know, I'm not going to indulge you by doing that.

Sorry.

[Zalatix]

43. IOW you got nothin'. You claimed I'm wrong but you can't show where.

Gotcha. Enjoy!

[Warren DeMontague]

45. Threre's been a wave of man-bashing threads in GD past couple months

I suspect it's related to the perennial dust-ups we have around porn, or legal prostitution, or sex in ads, etc.

But, come on. You can't pretend like you haven't noticed.

[Zalatix]

46. Hell, we men should be happy we're allowed here!

[ElboRuum]

47. Apparently you can...

...and it seems like many do.

I've seen tons of threads over the years here engage in man-bashing. At first, I (foolishly) attempted to toss a little reason into them, only to be swarmed and told in not so many words to get the eff out. Since then, I've largely attempted to avoid them, which is difficult because they do get me a little angry. Not angry because of the things that are said (if you've heard one broad-stroke negative male cliche you've heard them all), but because a) they are allowed to stand most of the time without being locked and b) the rules of civility seem very out of balance in them. I have seen people TSed for making broad-stroke generalizations about women (as they should be), but I've never seen people TSed for making broad-stroke generalizations against men.

[Warren DeMontague]

48. The WoT will continue, never you fear.

That is, the War on Testicles.

[Zalatix]

51. Caught in the middle

Lots of us want to fight these double standards but I for one don't want to be associated with anti-misandry groups because 99.99% of them just like to slag women.

[Warren DeMontague]

53. I'm not a joiner, myself

I do think the concept of "fighting for men's liberation" is -to some degree- absurd on its face, like "fighting for caucasian rights" or "fighting for Christian rights" (in countries like this one, where the majority is Christian. I'm not talking about Saudi Arabia.) ... we do have a responsibility to acknowledge that men are coming from a place of privilege, historically.

I think there are specific instances where men do face specific forms of discrimination, of a fashion, like parental custody- but overall I think the challenges facing men are different than the ones facing women and much of what I see as worth 'fighting' for is just a broader understanding and a more constructive dialogue, as well as a universal commitment towards freedom, tolerance, equal rights, the right for people to actualize to their own full potential as they see fit (instead of being bound by the expectations or categorizations of others/society) and the right to full self-determination and bodily autonomy for ALL people.

Like I said upthread, I don't think men should have to apologize for being men, nor do I think men, the so-called 'male gaze', or the male approach to things like sexuality, need 'repairing'.

[Zalatix]

54. I never came from any privilege

Just sayin'.

[Warren DeMontague]

55. Okay. Historically men have had a lot of advantages.

Less so maybe now than 100 years ago, but come on.

[Zalatix]

56. And how long do modern men have to pay the price for this?

I never beat my wife or denied a woman a job, I have a business with women employees and they don't get paid less than the men.

But if my wife drugged me and [url=http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/2012/02/catherine_kieu_becker_not_guil.php]cut my you-know-what[/url] off and destroyed it in a garbage disposal, people will say “However, I do think it’s quite fabulous” (and that was exactly what Sharon Osbourne said of Catherine Kieu - word for word)

And if I got beaten over the head by a golf club for cheating, I would expect that the media [url=http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/tiger-woods-accident/1182383]will make jokes[/url] about it.

How long must we pay these awful penalties just for the crime of being male?

[Warren DeMontague]

57. one, which price are you currently being required to pay, and two, that wasn't my suggestion.

Being aware of the facts is not the same thing as demanding you 'pay a price'.

If you want to challenge Sharon Osbourne or some of the folks on DU, even, who think johnson cutting off is a funny joke (it's not, although "ve takes ze money, lebowski!" is a classic line) I'm right there with you. I think it's appalling to laugh about the maiming of a man when a similar story about a woman would be greeted with horror.

But one can expect fairer treatment along those lines and still acknowledge historical reality. We can walk and chew gum at the same time.

[Zalatix]

63. One: Male bashing.

When you try and protest it, you're told to lighten up.

Show me one example of a jury that has voted to hide a negative generalization comment here about men.

[snooper2]

68. Yes they are, check my post below :)

[snooper2]

67. yes, there have been studies on narcissistic women

LOL

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7300050
[A developmental study of narcissistic tendency (1) : women in pregnancy and confinement (author's transl)].
[Article in Japanese]
Hosoi K.
Abstract
This study examined developmental changes in the narcissistic tendency in women by two questionnaires. The first questionnaire was given to 235 women in pregnancy (P groups) and the second to 49 women in confinement (C group) who were randomly chosen from among the 235 women surveyed first. Women when pregnant were more sensitive and more narcissistic compared with when not pregnant. The narcissistic tendency associated with Exhibition found for adolescent non-pregnant women (Hosoi, 1978 a) was also found for the women in pregnancy, with addition of association with Ego Ideal. They were also concerned with themselves more than their fetus.


http://www.wellesley.edu/Psychology/Wink/3%20Types%20of%20Narcissism%20in%20Wo.pdf

Three Types of Narcissism in Women
from College to Mid-Life

Paul Wink
Institute of Personality Assessment and Research
University of California at Berkeley

[seabeyond]

69. hey snooper

from the post right above... lol, i thought i was going to hear something about the locked thread, grinnin.

this is interesting. i havent gotten in and read the studies yet, but i might be grabbing them from you, if you dont mind. they sound interesting. people dont believe it, but this stuff is gold to me.

thanks for finding those. the preg one seems particularly interesting that they are more narcissistic with themselves and not the baby. cant wait to have the time to read that one.

[snooper2]

70. With the right keywords googles find everything

[seabeyond]

72. ya know

i guess it is the "right" word i have a tough time with. i was complaining to husband the other day i put in

huge clothed erection showing manhood

and i got a bunch of naked women.

what am i doing wrong.

he typed in a couple words and got an image i wanted. the problem is, i dont remember how he did it.

i dont know how he does it. gifted i guess.

[mistertrickster]

88. MineralMan, do you have a problem with this?

posted the following in response to a London survey on rape victims and how it's their own fault:

redqueen
7. I doubt the results would be much different among DUers. nt

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11391727#post7

*******

Because I have a problem with it.

[MineralMan]

103. Do I have a problem with what?

This has nothing to do with the post you're replying to, as far as I can see. I didn't see that thread, and your question is too open ended for me to answer.

Some DUers seem to have the opinion that women bring rape onto themselves. I've seen those posts.

I don't make many statements about DUers in general. It's too diverse a group, and I don't know most DUers beyond their posts.

[mistertrickster]

106. Nice dodge.

I think attacking the DU community, which is far more supportive of women's rights than the general population, is unfair and alienating, and ultimately counter-productive of feminist goals.

[Warren DeMontague]

44. I think we send our outside linebacker left in a fake-out play to leave the toilet seat up

while the rest of the squad goes straight for the cable remote.

[Warren DeMontague]

49. I just want to say, I'm in favor of vaginal satisfaction.

I'm pro satisfied vagina.

[mistertrickster]

58. Gender and LGBT issues are bourgeois narcissism.

Marx is right: The only thing that matters is money.

The most ridiculous idea in the world is that Paris Hilton or Elton John is more discriminated against than a West Virginian coal miner because he's a straight white male.

Madame Du Pont could buy all the power and access she needed. It's not your chromosomes, it's your dough, ray, me.

[mistertrickster]

59. As far as "men's liberation" goes . . .

a pay-raise and more vacation would be a helluva good start.

[qb]

60. I've found life much easier since I stopped worrying about what other people think.

I've heard that because we live in a patriarchal society men don't need advocates.
I have also heard the implication that pro-man = anti-woman. I disagree.
All genders (I'm including trans and other gender types) have unique characteristics and problems that can be improved through advocacy.
We can advocate for our own solutions while taking care not to negatively impact another group, and just ignore the noise.

[tech_smythe]

61. Now, now. we'll have NONE of that common sense and goldy rule crap here!

Don't you know the gender war is a brutal, vicious, winner takes nothing battle to the death royal!?
We can't have some liberal sissy (see op, and most replies) bandying about wanting EQUALITY!
WE ARE MEN!
We are the ENEMY after all!
/sarcasm

ok seriously, yeah I agree completely with you. I just wish some on the hard-core other side agreed

maybe we'd make some progress in all this.

[bemildred]

65. +1.

One does much better to worry about ones own thinking.

[Broken_Hero]

62. In my experience

be civil, kind, open minded, and the most important factor, listen.

As a man, I don't feel like I need to be liberated from anything, and as women's rights go there is a lot of issues that need to be taken care of. As a man, I don't feel like there are any injustices that I have faced, although there are varying degree's of stereotypes, and social norms that have been pushed upon me, and fostered within.

As for women's rights, from what I've experienced first hand via how my wife in general, and in corporate America is treated there is a ways to go. I see the struggles that my wife faces, and it puts a different perspective on things, and makes me realize there are issues that I usually don't have to face, based solely on my gender.

[lumberjack_jeff]

64. Listen? I think it's also important to speak. "Women can't hear what men don't say."

Last edited Sat Feb 11, 2012, 03:46 PM - Edit history (1)

Are there barriers that women face? Probably, but I'm not qualified to identify them any more than I am qualified to deny them.

What I am qualified to do is talk about the barriers that I face because I'm a man, (see the faq) and to advocate change for my sons.

I personally believe that the first thing you should liberate yourself from is the belief that those barriers don't exist.

[Broken_Hero]

66. I basically agree about everything you have stated.

Last edited Sun Feb 12, 2012, 07:47 PM - Edit history (1)

And didn't mean to say there isn't barriers, or stereotypes that men face, and need to be corrected, as I stated

"although there are varying degree's of stereotypes, and social norms that have been pushed upon me, and fostered within. "


I don't feel that I need to be liberated though, when I think liberation I think of prisons/camps where you have to defeat, or overpower an oppressive force to escape, my disagreement was basically the word liberate. There are barriers that both sexes face, I never stated there wasn't.

[mistertrickster]

71. My easy answer?

Quit even dealing with gender issues and focus on CLASS.

If you've got money, you don't need to worry about who's going to help with child care while you're at work, say.