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[Warren DeMontague]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Warren DeMontague) on Fri Aug 3, 2012, 09:22 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[rrneck]

1. I haven't given much thought to feminism

and all its various permutations. Is this whole "radfem piv" thing found in mainstream feminist thought, or is it on the fringe?

[Warren DeMontague]

3. Far fringe.

But, then, so is Dworkin.

I think part of the agitation and noise we hear from those circles is the dwindling amount of what little relevance there ever was, which is why all the bitter grousing about "funfems" and the like.

These guys spew dogma from MacKinnon and Brownmiller and today's young women look at them like they're speaking Swahili.

[Upton]

5. I think you're right about the reason for the agitation..

for the most part it appears young women don't want anything to do with old fashioned 2nd wave anti sex feminism. Can't say I blame them.

This has led to numerous articles decrying the part the sex positive 3rd wavers have supposedly played in what is seen as an erosion of whatever gains 2nd wavers think they've made...

Sound like members of a lost cause grasping at straws, looking for excuses and scapegoats....

[hifiguy]

9. The funny thing is that women like Susie Bright,

Annie Sprinkle and Nadine Strossen were calling them out and smacking them down 25 years ago. And the third-wavers have pretty much reduced the remaining second wavers, who were utterly without any senses of humor or irony to begin with, to the female equivalent of the stuffy old turds who still sit in English men's clubs bemoaning the loss of the Raj.

[4th law of robotics]

2. I'm starting to think that everything I do

serves the patriarchy in someway.

It's like when I eat breakfast in the morning is it because I'm hungry or is it to reinforce my role as the hunter and my wife's role as the submissive caretaker (even though I do the cooking. But only to undermine her authority in the kitchen and force her in to dependency on myself for survival. I swear! Don't kick me out of the patriarchy).

Some “double standards” may be more accurately identified as flat-out reversals, such as the double standard whereby prostituted women have been singled out for oppressive and restrictive state interventions meant to “stop the spread of disease” but male johns weren’t.

In some places prostitution is legal but being a "John" is not. In most places both are illegal. I can't think of anywhere that it is legal to pay a person for sex but illegal to take the money.

Women around the world are literally used up by men, until we die from it: women are raped literally to death, we are subjected to numerous unwanted pregnancies that are known to kill us and in fact do kill some 500,000 women globally every year, and we are driven to illness and suicide from the stress and torment of living and laboring under the brutal conditions of patriarchy and of individual men.

I guess this explains why women on average live so much longer. We're raping them to death via consensual sex which apparently they hate no matter how much they consent and seem to enjoy it.

/also she has a whole paragraph on how not finding menstruation beautiful is part of the rape-culture. I suspect there are a few women who aren't entirely keen on the process either.

[Warren DeMontague]

4. Personally, I think women on average tend to live longer because of basic biology.

That's not anyone's "fault", it's just the way it is.

Also, I'd add that, FWIW, menstruation doesn't bother me at all. I'm not, like, into it, but I'm also not generally freaked out by basic human processes. And as far as I can tell, it's still operating just fine despite the moon bombing.

[hifiguy]

6. I would love to see an evolutionary biologist address

this lunatic "argument." The problem would be finding an evolutionary biologist that didn't laugh him/herself into unconsciousness on reading such a moronic statement. Clearly it isn't just the Sarah Palins of the world capable of spewing word salads consisting of obfuscatory clouds of blatant bullshit.

[4th law of robotics]

8. I like the part how PIV is unnatural

traumatic to women and entirely without pleasure.

I think radfem has simply provided a forum for people that would otherwise be diagnosed with mental disorders. The sheer hatred they display (and the energy it must consume to post essay after essay of nonsense every day for years) is indicative of a person with issues.


If the genders were flipped the person would instead be labeled a disgusting woman hater and ignored.

/talking only about the self described radfem movement here. Not feminism in general.

[loli phabay]

11. its got to satire theres no way anyone can think consensual sex is akin to rape

Thet got to realise consensual and nonconsensualnare polar opposites. If not there has to be some mental issues and difficulty understanding the concepts.

[4th law of robotics]

12. In some incidences it may be

but there are plenty of "experts" in the field who maintain these same basic arguments.

I would have a hard time believing they're all joking. They seem pretty serious about it.

This really seems to boil down to some horrible experience they had with a man that they then extrapolate to all men.

Since they are met with cheers and support rather than concern and efforts to help them get over it that irrational hate is able to grow and manifest itself in screeds like this.

It's like if you have a guy friend who gets cheated on and he decides to get drunk and complain about all women. If everyone he talked to said "right on, women are evil!" he wouldn't get over it. Instead they're more likely to say "so and so is awful, but there are plenty of fish in the sea, forget about that b. . . "

With Radfem there are plenty of forums that are exclusively the former.

[loli phabay]

13. so the problem is people seeing people as monolithic instead as individuals

I have found that every race nationality sex and species has assholes and good people. I just dont get thinking that everyone has to think and be the same it would be so boring.

[4th law of robotics]

14. It's seems to be a combination of seeing all men as one monolithic unit

(in cahoots against women no less) and also ascribing to that group all the very worst traits of individuals within it.

So find some serial rapist on the news. He's male. Ergo all males more or less display those same characteristics (maybe some don't act on it but they're thinking it).

It's pretty much what all bigots do: find the worst possible outliers within a group, exaggerate their worst traits a bit, and then assume that caricature is an accurate portrayal of all members of that group.

So some men being rapists becomes all men are rapists. Some men beating women becomes all men beating women. And so on.

Oh and add on the weird conspiracy part (apparently we don't merely do these things because we're evil and it's fun but also because it's part of a greater scheme all men are involved in to keep women in their place) and BAM(!) you have an entire deranged ideology.

[Gore1FL]

10. This can be looked at in two ways:

They are either lowering the morality of sex or raising the morality of rape with the argument.

I would disagree with both of these possible conclusions.

I guess it may be "necessary" and "delicious satire." Who is to know really?


(I specifically worded this post in this way so someone (let's call this hypothetical person "Falseglad&quot could take the title and first sentence for his next distortion-filled/delusional post in meta. I'm here to help.)

[Warren DeMontague]

15. Here's a good resource: "in their own words", from Maggie McNeill

Ms. McNeill has been kind enough to compile some of the most egregious examples of batshittery on one page. One for the bookmarks.

http://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2011/06/10/in-their-own-words/

The act which men commonly perform on prostituted women is penis-in-vagina sexual intercourse.  There is nothing “natural” about that act.  -  Sheila Jeffreys

Julie Burchill

When the sex war is won prostitutes should be shot as collaborators for their terrible betrayal of all women.

The man “makes hate” to the woman, as each sex act is designed to deliver the maximum amount of degradation. - Gail Dines

One can know everything and still be unable to accept the fact that sex and murder are fused in the male consciousness, so that the one without the imminent possibly of the other is unthinkable and impossible.

Romance is rape embellished with meaningful looks.

Under patriarchy, no woman is safe to live her life, or to love, or to mother children. Under patriarchy, every woman is a victim, past, present, and future. Under patriarchy, every woman’s daughter is a victim, past, present, and future. Under patriarchy, every woman’s son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman. - Andrea Dworkin

When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression… - Shiela Jeffreys

Men who are in prison for rape…were put in jail for something very little different from what most men do most of the time and call it sex.  The only difference is they got caught. - Catherine MacKinnon

[4th law of robotics]

16. What a fun group of ladies to be around

a man who said things half as offensive against women would be deemed a mentally damaged bigot that needs help or at best to be isolated from society so he can't hurt anyone.

They are considered Prophets for the Church of Feminism.

Sick.

[Warren DeMontague]

17. There seems to be a real weird hornets nest of psychology going on in some of those heads.

With time, I might try to deconstruct some of it, from my perspective.

I think several factors are at work, including (but not limited to) sublimated religious guilt and self-loathing over sexuality and physical appearance issues.

For starts.

[4th law of robotics]

18. It definitely a mental illness

not my bailiwick so I won't attempt a specific diagnosis but there is no way that level of irrational and consuming hate can be healthy.


I don't even hate them for their words and the damage they've done (despite them hating me for "choosing" to be born male). I pity them.

These are clearly unhealthy and chronically unhappy women who need serious help. And instead of getting it they are being encouraged in their delusions to such an extent that help may be impossible for them (those that are still alive that is).

They may hate me for my gender but to be honest I want nothing more than for them to return to sanity and live a happy life. Yeah some men are awful. So are some women. And about in the same numbers in my experience (although it often manifests itself differently).

But just as a white supremacist can always find examples of black people misbehaving but still be wrong in his conceptions of that entire group so are these bigots wrong in their characterization of all men as violent rapists.

So I don't blame them for having mental illnesses. I blame their supporters who ought to know better but continue to egg them on to further insanities.

[hifiguy]

19. Julie Burchill was an Olympic-class asshole

when she was writing in the English music press more than 30 years ago. She was a mean-spirited, batshit-crazy liar then. So much so that I remember her all these years later for those very qualities. She hasn't changed a bit.

ETA: Ms McNeill's blog is most excellent and now bookmarked.

The psychosexual pathologies, and just plain pathologies, manifested in those quotes would keep a platoon of psychiatrists busy for decades. Paranoia, delusion. persecution complexes and shit for which there probably isn't diagnostic vocabulary. They are as every bit as deranged as the dominionists and in exactly the same way.

And we have to put up with this psychotic bullshit right here on DU.

[snooper2]

22. PIV sounds like a STD ROFL

I guess they do that on purpose

CIP must be too crude