Searing questions on massive solar experiment in Mojave Desert

[XemaSab]

As one of the world's largest sun-powered plants takes shape, observers debate the risk to birds, planes and drivers.

(snip)

The project's whiz-bang technology has confounded government regulators' ability to analyze the facility, in part because nothing of its type and size exists anywhere else in the world. Although it approved Ivanpah's permit in 2010, the California Energy Commission struggled to assess the public health effects that would be created by the vast field of mirrors and the volumes of hot air pushed upward by spinning turbines and condensers.

Much of the analysis came from computer modeling, most of it provided by the project owners, Oakland-based BrightSource Energy. In extensive hearings before the Energy Commission, the firm argued that concerns about its plant were overblown and that the project posed no danger to the public. The power plant — one of dozens being fast-tracked by the Interior Department — is slated to open early next year.

(snip)

About 30 years ago, ornithologist Robert McKernan and a colleague conducted studies at the Solar One plant near Barstow. By collecting and analyzing bird carcasses, they found that some birds flying through the solar field were incinerated outright. Others perished after their feathers were singed or burned off, or when they collided with the mirror structures or the central tower.

(snip)

"If you hit a plume dead center, you have one wing in and one wing out of it. It would flip an airplane in a heartbeat," said Pat Wolfe, who operated the Blythe airport for 20 years.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-solar-heat-plume-20120621,0,917543.story

[joshcryer]

2. "some birds flying through the solar field were incinerated outright"

[msongs]

3. rooftop solar NOT corporate solar. it's our sun, let's use it at home nt

[OKIsItJustMe]

12. And what about the people who don’t own a roof

Or their roof is oriented wrong, and shaded by trees (like mine?)

[tinrobot]

21. Buy it locally first

Those who install more solar than they need can sell it to the grid, then that power goes to you.

Once all the rooftops and parking lots are filled with local solar, we plow over virgin desert.

[RegieRocker]

4. hmmm more info needed. Very vague.

MIT students create a solar collector with a steam turbine generator around the size of old tv dishes. Myth buster also tried to recreate archimedes death ray. It was busted. Now if the birds
stayed motionless in air close to the focal point of mirrors for an hour or more you might have a concern. Seems to me only the dumb birds would be at risk.
http://web.mit.edu/2.009/www/experiments/deathray/10_Mythbusters.html
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/solar-dish-0618.html

[FlaGranny]

6. I saw a TV program once

about this solar plant as it was being built. I believe there are hundreds?/thousands? of mirrors and ALL of them are concentrated at one small point on a collecting tower. Concentrating the sun's rays thousands (or even hundreds) of times would incinerate a lot of things.

Edit: A bird flying through the beam of one mirror probably wouldn't be hurt, but if a bird flew near the top of the tower where many rays were concentrated - imagine the suns rays being even 10 times stronger.

I thought the solar plant was a great idea, but now wonder if it is really feasible as it has been years in the planning and building and the expense has been huge. If I remember correctly (could be wrong), it won't power a city, just an average size town.

[RegieRocker]

7. I see you edited post...good

The birds will feel the heat and avoid. They do this all the time in real world.

[FlaGranny]

10. Yes, I edited

I wasn't really thinking about birds, but about the concentrated sun rays at the collection point. I'm no scientist or expert on much of anything. Just a granny.

The mechanics of precisely moving all these mirrors will require constant maintenance. I love the idea of alternative energy sources, but hopefully something a little more practical. JMO.

[RegieRocker]

11. Give it time to mature

It has to start somewhere. Check out links.

[joshcryer]

14. We're talking a thousand of degrees of heat being pulled away by coolants.

The air near the top of the tower is not that hot, most of the heat is being pulled into the generators by the circulatory cooling system. The air in the immediate vicinity of the top of the tower may be 150 degrees (temperature of air near lava), but the air just a few dozen feet away is going to be close to ambient. In fact, a bird could be flying within a beam, be blinded by it and fly "away" only moving into more concentrated bits of the beam. I can imagine they would even begin to fly faster and faster, and if they started out relatively in the middle of the beam (and it's wider the further out you are, so that's very possible) they would wind up feeling heat as they fly up and feeling heat as they fly down, no way to know which way is safe (both are safe though down is probably the best bet).

These plants are generally built in the desert, the animals there are adapted, at least marginally (birds can be migratory), to 110-120 degree temperatures. A rise of 50 degrees in a matter of moments is impossible to deal with and can lead to a breakdown of the animal.

[RegieRocker]

19. Proof?

If a man can walk on hot coals but not stand are you suggesting the birds will hover in the area? Give me proof to back your claims.

[joshcryer]

20. I've had a really long day.

I might try to explain it to you some other time, but I don't know if it's worth all the effort it requires to show the thermal qualities of the light beams as they travel toward the tower. It's going to be some square of the distance formula multiplied by the area of the mirrors.

[madokie]

5. scaremongering sounds to me like

Too fucking many what ifs in there for me
Exactly what is the fans blowing hot air up all about anyway?
The heat from each mirror is only going to be one sun added to the sun that is shinning up above so I don't think that would singe the feathers. If what light being being reflected from the collector isn't enough to keep the birds away I don't know what would so I don't see that as a problem. I guess as the light from all the mirrors converge together it would start to heat up but I'd think that a bird has enough sense to fly away from that. Last I've observed when I burn a big brush pile I never have seen a bird even get close to that so I think that is a non issue.
Naw I don't buy this line of thinking anymore than I buy that nuclear, which you are so in favor of, is safe and or sane.
FEAR-MONGERING is all I see here, sorry

Oh and if the birds were incinerated outright then why were carcasses found?
I call bullshit on this.

[RegieRocker]

8. Finally a sane person. Thx

[joshcryer]

15. All animals have an instinctive fear of fire.

Birds at least we know have been blinded by building reflections and flown into glass on buildings (to the tune of tens of million a year). It's distinct from fire, imo.

If the birds were incinerated outright then the bones likely would still be there along with bits of bird. The bird would cease flying as soon as it caught fire and started to decompose (via heat). The bones then wouldn't have time to vaporize because it would fall out of the air (though I guarantee you that if it was close enough to the tower and came in at a steep angle the bones would vaporize, it'd be interesting to put video monitors out to see if that's happening).

[madokie]

17. I think it's just fear mongering only

Yes I've had a bird fly into my window and die but in 64 years thats only happened once that I know of. I don't believe anything that a known person who is in favor of nuclear power has to say about any of the alternates. Even if it was good I'd still take what they said with a grain of salt.

Tens of millions a year. another grain of salt tossed sigh

Vaporize pretty much means its gone, not some bits left so like I said it's bullshit, the smelly kind too.

have a great weekend

[joshcryer]

18. And a tonne of carbon dioxide is only 0.0000000000015 degrees of global temperature change.

Funny how that works out.

Little effects build up. Simply doing the 2030 electrical grid expansion will kill an additional several million new birds a year, etc.

[madokie]

22. I'm not really sure I follow where you're going with this

at any rate I wish for you a most pleasant day today.

[RegieRocker]

9. This kind of crap cracks me up.....

What about all the stacks from nuclear and industrial plants? I don't think birds fly thru the smoke/steam and survive. Damn.

[FogerRox]

16. Nat gas flaring at refineries

I'm sure birds just aim for that............

[phantom power]

13. I think those are great questions. But I want to see it built because...

the best way to learn about impacts of large scale deployment is to try a large scale deployment.

[madokie]

23. Now we're talking

Lets get on with the program and find out exactly what happens rather than not because of some unfounded fear.