Will solar power kill utility companies? They think so.

[jpak]

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2013/0602/Will-solar-power-kill-utility-companies-They-think-so.

Technology can be a real drag. CDs killed cassettes. MP3s killed CDs. Video killed the radio star. Bummer.

Now, a new threat looms in the dark pit we call progress: solar power. According to Grist, utilities are worried that wiring up photovoltaic cells to human ingenuity will soon upset the delicate monopoly that those companies have maintained for the past 100 years.

The article details a report from the Edison Electric Institute (PDF), which paints a bleak picture of the utility sector's future. In addition to rate hikes that make energy more expensive and tax incentives that encourage consumers to make their homes more energy efficient, the industry is also witnessing a rapid drop in the cost of solar energy hardware. Between 2008 and 2012, the price of photovoltaic panels fell from $3.80/watt to $0.86/watt -- and hold onto your hats, because it could go lower.

Adding to these dark burdens are improvements in energy storage technology. Every week, it seems like someone or other develops a new battery that can hold more power and do so longer than those on the market today. Pair those batteries with a solar setup, and you give customers something terrifying: access to 24-hour power.

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[elleng]

1. Posted this yesterday.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/112745525

[Yooperman]

2. It's inevitable that solar and electric are going to change the world...

Tesla Motors has plans to build recharging stations throughout the U.S. and Canada allowing their customers to charge at zero cost.

Solar panels technology is producing new and innovative types of harnessing the power of the sun.

I hope the electric companies try to help encourage this instead of fighting it. They could help with the transformation of our society from oil to solar.



Ym

[BlueStreak]

3. I am a little unclear about Tesla's ownership of that

Some news reports talk about Tesla actually owning charging stations, but most of what I have seen are charging stations being deployed by other companies using brand-neutral technology. Tesla has been talking about their "supercharging" stations. It isn't clear who will own those and whether or not they will work with any other vehicles.

It seems to me that Elon Musk is only putting up his own charging stations as necessary to make marketing claims (e.g. by next year you can go coast to coast on I-80). What is needed is a a much more ubiquitous network of chargers that will work with any EV brand. One would think that these would make sense for installation at regular service stations where space isn't a big limitation, and certainly at restaurants that run along the highways, such as Cracker Barrel (although I doubt that Cracker Barrel's clientele is the typical Tesla owner.)

[Yooperman]

6. I agree

The video I watched was put out by Tesla and it appeared that these charging stations would be for their own vehicles. With that being said, it is their technology and they truly seem to be a few years ahead in the game of charging. Their "supercharger" can charge a vehicle in 20 min or less.... versus sometimes several hours with other cars.

So until the other companies catch up I don't feel that it's Tesla Motor's responsibility to provide charging stations for competitors.

I can foresee stations that figure out a way to charge a variety of vehicles... most likely with a small fee to do so.

I finally feel the scale has been tipped and now that we can produce competitive electric vehicles... the technology will continue to improve and overcome these issues.

[BlueStreak]

7. I think this would be a very bad idea for Tesla

But I think Musk knows what he is doing. As long as the numbers are small, he can do whatever helps him keep the marketing hype going. But putting in hundreds of stations that will only work on Tesla vehicles -- that would be nuts.

What he is probably trying to do is establish the validity of his "supercharging" and then try to get other car makers to license that from him.

That could be a great deal if he can pull it off, but I have a sense this is more marketing hype than reality. It is the nature of these batteries to be able to take on an 80% charge rather quickly if you can remove the heat fast enough, so it isn't obvious to me that he has made any kind of technology breakthrough. We don't have to wait very long to find out how real it is.

[FogerRox]

10. liquid cooling and higher voltage arent something that can be patented or liscensed.

Any electric car manufacturer can do that. It would translate to a higher retail price -

[BlueStreak]

11. There could certainly be a patentable cooling process, if Tesla invented anything novel

I have been involved in all sorts of cooling system patents for large scale computers over the years. Nothing unusual about that.

But if what you are saying is that Tesla's "super-conductor" is simply a process that zaps the batteries with higher voltage and then has extra big fans (or something equally obvious) to remove the extra heat, I'd certainly agree with you that they would have trouble defending a patent claim.

[FogerRox]

18. liquid cooling and charging at a higher voltage

by itself is not patentable. Unless there is something new or unique. No ?

Even if Tesla has patent, another manufacturer can simply design something different that accomplishes the same task
Either way.

[BlueStreak]

19. Definitely. I haven't seen anything that tells me the "super charger" is novel

For the EV market to reach the mainstream, we will need tens of thousands of charge points that work on all EV brands.

The "Supercharger" business is just a marketing thing to help Tesla argue that "see, you really can take a long distance trip with our car."

[BlueStreak]

8. Conflicting claims about Tesla "supercharging

This recent article
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2013/05/31/tesla-building-nationwide-electric-car-charging-network/

Says

The expanded "supercharger" network will allow owners of Tesla's $70,000 Model S sedans to travel from Los Angeles to New York, probably by the coming winter, as well as make other long-distance trips. The Model S can travel about 200 miles, or for about three hours, when fully charged. With the network, it can be recharged to 50 percent of its battery capacity in 20 to 30 minutes, allowing drivers to make quick stops before driving on.

That would not be remarkable at all. Several battery suppliers have demonstrated faster rates than that already. I think the claims may be getting mixed up.

If we took that literally, that says after the initial charge to start the trip, you could run 3 hours. Then you would have to stop every 90 minutes for a 30-minute charge. That would not be very attractive.

Stopping every 2 hours for a 10 minute charge would be a nuisance, but maybe acceptable to a lot of people.

[Demeter]

4. Power to the People!

It's the Age of Aquarius, after all!

[silverweb]

5. Ditto that!

[wtmusic]

9. Every week, it seems like someone or other develops a new battery!

All we have to do is wait enough weeks, and zero-point energy cold fusion solar will power the world!

It's mathematical! it's true!!

[gejohnston]

12. They make it sound like its a bad thing

I think it would be great.

[wtmusic]

13. As an experiment, let's cut off utility power for solar panel owners

and see whether we measure in hours, minutes, or seconds the time before they're begging for it back again.

[gejohnston]

14. that would depend on

how well they thought out battery storage and/or back up generators.

[wtmusic]

16. Back up generators? Diesel fuel?

If your goal is clean energy, you're going backwards. The strength of utilities lies in efficiencies of scale.

As for storage, lead-acid batteries are an environmental and a maintenance nightmare, and everything else is off-the-charts expensive.

If the idea of patronizing a large corporation bugs you, that's fine - but going it alone is not cheaper nor cleaner.

[gejohnston]

17. good point but

I was thinking B100 and lithium batteries, which is sort of expensive. Growing up in Wyoming, off the grid is ten miles out of city limits. I have relatives and one former employer that is off the grid. The generator is off most of the day and comes on when lights are needed. Fridge and stove are propane. But then, wind is the best option there.

[kristopher]

15. Let's do the same for nuclear plant owners

Wait, we'd better not do that, we might get another Fukushima.