Environment & Energy
Related: About this forumAs Worries Over the Power Grid Rise, a Drill Will Simulate a Knockout Blow
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/17/us/as-worries-over-the-power-grid-rise-a-drill-will-simulate-a-knockout-blow.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0WASHINGTON The electric grid, as government and private experts describe it, is the glass jaw of American industry. If an adversary lands a knockout blow, they fear, it could black out vast areas of the continent for weeks; interrupt supplies of water, gasoline, diesel fuel and fresh food; shut down communications; and create disruptions of a scale that was only hinted at by Hurricane Sandy and the attacks of Sept. 11.
This is why thousands of utility workers, business executives, National Guard officers, F.B.I. antiterrorism experts and officials from government agencies in the United States, Canada and Mexico are preparing for an emergency drill in November that will simulate physical attacks and cyberattacks that could take down large sections of the power grid.
They will practice for a crisis unlike anything the real grid has ever seen, and more than 150 companies and organizations have signed up to participate.
Should be quite the deal...
We are fighting a 80 mile long 345kV line through the Boston Mountains in the Ozarks. This is the oldest mountain in the world and is so precious and fragile, riddled with limestone caves and home to hundreds of species of flora and fauna indigenous to this mountain. We are home to the last of many others as well. It seems that the whole world has gone crazy for money. Instead of doing the right thing of protecting what is left, moving to renewable energy, feeding the hungry and housing the poor, we build things that are targets for terrorism which will cripple many places all at once.
silverweb
(16,402 posts)[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]The successful efforts for going local/going solar in Boulder, CO, brought out the big corporate guns, who are going all out to undo what the people have done.
If the grid goes right now, Boulder will be independently secure, but that just can't be allowed. Millions of corporate dollars are being spent to force the citizens of Boulder to give up their independence, and to rely again on corporate fossil-fuel generating plants and the transmission grid that's in such bad shape.
I hope the people of Boulder win decisively and more municipalities follow in their footsteps.
Great video here:
http://www.upworthy.com/a-bunch-of-young-geniuses-just-made-a-corrupt-corporation-freak-out-big-time-time-for-round
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)to keep us all exposed to a terroristic take-down of the grid or by simple overload.
Venezuela anyone?
BlueToTheBone
(3,747 posts)we are in the fight of our lives here in the Ozarks. Our website
SavetheOzarks.org
I hope someone creates a break through and we get to have that beautiful world we envision.
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)BlueToTheBone
(3,747 posts)power companies. We are being completely screwn!
hunter
(38,326 posts)No, that's just too horrible to contemplate... if people had good jobs, if we weren't fucking around projecting our military might all over the world, if we had plenty of clean, domestically generated power, if nobody had any reason to hate us, domestic or foreign, if we couldn't be manipulated by cries of "Terror! Terror! Terror!" then what would the authoritarians and military industrial complex do??? Who is going to tolerate secret police if there are no threats??? Who is going to pay for billion dollar airplanes and giant NSA computer centers?
It just boggles the mind all the things the U.S.A. can't do. We can't provide good jobs to everyone, we can't provide appropriate health care for everyone, hell, we can't even feed and house everyone. Just what the hell is it we are protecting?
Sadly, we all know the answer: It's the wealth and political power of the incredibly wealthy. They are isolated from the society and natural environment they sucking the life from.
BlueToTheBone
(3,747 posts)the span of the "poles" are 160' wide or 12 lane freeway size. That's pretty sturdy. Of course, quite a large target with 8 of these babies per every mile.
hunter
(38,326 posts)We out to be doing serious deconstruction at this point, taking down dams, shrinking highways, taking down giant power plants and transmission networks, replacing them with local power plants that we can live with in our own neighborhoods.
Most of all we ought to be refurbishing existing cities and suburbs to use less energy, to make walking and biking a pleasant experience, with good public transportation and neighborhood shopping, instead of building new high energy automobile-dependent suburbs.
BlueToTheBone
(3,747 posts)kristopher
(29,798 posts)You aren't seriously claiming that terrorists are out to sabotage power lines in NW Arkansas are you?
And while I'm on the topic in this thread, let me ask another question. How long have you lived there? The reason most short lines like this get built is population growth in a region starts overloading the design limits of the infrastructure in the area. Things like power lines, water, roads and schools often require expansion and upgrades because of heavier demand. In this case it is likely that the power lines that were there when you moved to the area had been sufficient to serve a DUAL function - bring power to the area and pass power through to help provide stability to that overall region of the grid. Those older lines were part of a larger SYSTEM that needed their carrying capacity to spread out the load and not put too much strain on any one line. When people move in and more power is taken out of that pool, it is required to be replaced and the function of being a pathway is negatively impacted, placing stress on other lines and increasing the probability of a line failure and a blackout.
So, unless you've lived there 40-50 years, you are probably part of the reason the lines are needed.
Why not explore community renewable projects that would generate power INTO the grid and provide the same sort of stabilizing support without the power lines? You could promote it to regulators by saying the community recognizes their part in the creation of the problem and wish to take responsibility by offering an alternative solution that will serve everyone's needs.
What I'm writing is largely speculation, but I'm a bit familiar with growth in that region and the nature of the grid. I'd suggest you find someone that can do a proper analysis of how some distributed generation in your area can solve the problem. Look for people who have experience with wind and solar farm development. You could contact local rooftop solar companies to get some ideas of who in the area might be qualified to evaluate the situation properly.
BlueToTheBone
(3,747 posts)A) I didn't write the article, so I'm not claiming anything. However, just incidentally, here's a post from a week or so ago
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1039261
B) Although not here for 40 years, we purchased a previously built home and have spent our time insulating and updating energy slurping appliances.
C) Doing that
D) Here is a website that gives you more detail about our problem. www.savetheozarks.org
And, not any of the power being generated is going here; it is all being sent to Oklahoma.
Thanks for your suggestions.
kristopher
(29,798 posts)BlueToTheBone Reply #9. the "poles" are 160' tall and 30' in the ground ... the span of the "poles" are 160' wide or 12 lane freeway size. That's pretty sturdy. Of course, quite a large target with 8 of these babies per every mile.
Don't get me wrong, I understand your feelings. There has been talk of putting in some transmission lines near my home, and other talk of running a bypass to within a couple of miles of my house. I don't like the idea of either one.
But let's both be honest, our feelings are pure NIMBYism. It is nothing to be ashamed of IMO. If we, as individuals don't fit to keep our little piece of the world the way we want it to be, no one else will.
But if you are going to get anywhere fighting something like this, I think it helps to have an alternative that will work. Find a project developer who can show how to provide grid support AND profit the local area in the process and then you might have something that would ally you with town and county officials. More than half of the renewables going into Germany are financed at the community level.
BlueToTheBone
(3,747 posts)I really don't, but it does seem to be a concern of the power cos.
If it were only a matter of aesthetics, I would be unhappy, but the reality here is that it will destroy a fragile habitat that offers the world a lot more than a power line would.
kristopher
(29,798 posts)The need for the line is almost certainly caused by increased population density - something you contribute to. So, if you feel that the habitat is that fragile you should consider moving out of the region.
You are all over the map with your excuses and it is clear you are attempting to manufacture cover stories for your NIMBY attitude. Denying that you made the argument that this short power line would be a terrorist target, for example, is transparently grasping at straws.
I have no respect for someone that can't own up to their obvious motives and try to cover their own self interested motives up by pursuing duplicitous arguments. It is the kind of behavior that gives environmentalism a bad name.
We're done.
BlueToTheBone
(3,747 posts)in Arkansas; it is to be delivered to Neosho MO. It is our opinion that this should be in NO ONE'S backyard. It is a waste and a step back to the 1900s and before its 36 year construction has been completed, it will be obsolete.
http://www.lovelycitizen.com/story/2000776.html
Thank you for sharing you opinion of me.
pscot
(21,024 posts)to their enemies? An effective drill would highlight the system's vulnerabilities.
BlueToTheBone
(3,747 posts)will notice?
But, I wonder what will go wrong.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)The real weakness in the electrical system is the North East (Boston- NYC-Washington DC) and the Midwest (Pittsburgh, Chicago and Minneapolis). The route between these two sections are limited,
1. along the Monongahela and then the Pontiac Rivers,
2. along the Allegheny and Susquehanna Rivers,
3. Via the Mohawk Valley in upper New York State, between NYC, Boston and Toronto Ontario (and centered around Niagara Falls).
There is some overlap between the three system (with the biggest amount of overlap and interconnections between the first two)
And everyone who has read anything about this knows this unpleasant fact. The Ozarks, being a break away part of Appalachian Mountains (Telling you high old are both sets of mountains, along with the Highlands of Scotland, another part of the Appalachian Mountains that broke away a very long time ago) is a good substitute for the Appalachian Mountains that separate the North West from the Mid-West. In many ways the Appalachian Mountains are the weak point, for their are the hardest part of the system to access.
Just pointing out how much power is used in the Northeast and Mid West, Those are HUGE power lines, Texas is the only area that comes close and if you look at area around Pittsburgh, you see is is just massive in that area (Most are tied in with the Steel Industry, built before the collapse of steel in the early 1980s, but other industrial users then used the power).
Please note, the start of any electrical problems will be elsewhere. In 2003 it was a surge of power to Ontario that started the 2003 Blackout.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003
In 1965 it was a Rely was set to low, and stopped the flow of power from Niagara falls to Ontario, this lead power surges elsewhere that broke down the system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_1965
List of other major blackouts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_outages