Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumIsrael legalizes hundreds of West Bank settler homes
Source: Times of Israel
Move retroactively authorizes structures already built in several Jewish towns across Green Line
Israel retroactively legalized some 800 homes in four settlements in the West Bank, the Interior Ministry confirmed Friday.
They included 377 homes in the Yakir settlement, 187 in Itamar and 94 in Shilo in the northern West Bank, as well as 97 more in Sansana in the south, the ministry said.
The decision was made two weeks ago, but was only reported in the Israeli press on Friday.
“These aren’t new constructions but rather homes built in settlements recognized by Israel in areas that until now didn’t have any urban planning,” said Hagit Ofran, a spokeswoman for Israeli settlement watchdog Peace Now.
Read more: http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-legalizes-hundreds-of-west-bank-settler-homes/
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TubbersUK
(1,439 posts)
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Yeah, this post will be trouble. I know it.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)
grossproffit
(5,591 posts)
6chars
(3,967 posts)grossproffit
(5,591 posts)
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)The lessons of WWII were:
Don't be a fucking racist.
It's still a crime to treat people like shit even if you do it in the name of a Greater Good.
The Nazis wanted to eradicate the Jews because they were different.
They wanted to eradicate the Jews for the Greater Good of a better world.
The Nazis wanted to cleanse Eastern Europe, so the aryan race would have more place to live.
Israel's domestic policy is geared towards the Greater Good of rebuilding a jewish kingdom that ceased to exist as an independent state 3000 years ago. The Greater Good is to return to the glorious days when Israel stretched from the river to the sea. And what happens to the non-Jews who live there?
Who fucking cares? Israel wants this land and, by Jehovah, they will get it.
Now, I'm not saying that the israeli Jews are trying to exterminate the Palestinians. It would be ridiculous to claim that.
But it's undeniable that the Palestinians are discriminated against in Israel. What kind of discrimination? How about they are not allowed to return to the land of their ancestors they were driven from? How about two kinds of legal systems? How about bureaucratic sabotage by creating needless and malicious obstacles to palestinian land-development?
And it is undeniable that Israel is conducting ethnic cleansing in the Westbank, just like the Nazis sought to push their culture and civilization into Scandinavia and Eastern Europe.
You know how long it took until the Germans felt that it's okay to be proud of being german again? 61 years.
The Soccer World Cup 2006 was the first time since WWII Germans felt it's okay to celebrate Germany without the caveat of reminding everybody about the Nazis. And WWII still isn't forgotten and it won't be forgotten that soon. I had a great-grandfather who was conscripted to fight for the Nazis and a grandfather who went on an odyssey across Europe fleeing from the Nazi-onslaught. WWII will remain a dark mark on Germany's history for at least another millennium. (That's not a silly estimate: Europeans have a different approach to history than US-Americans. We have a long memory.)
Germany and the Jews. The criminal and the victim.
And how PERVERSE is it that the criminal has learned the lessons of his wrongdoing and the victim hasn't.
That's what I don't get about Israel.
Out of all the people in the world it should precisely be the Jews who stand up against discrimination, who stand up against ethnic violence.
Out of all the people in the world it should be the Jews who stand up and say "Stop this. This is wrong. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about. I have seen this before."
And yet they repeat the mistakes of Germany.
I think, the people of Israel are simply so traumatized that they don't realize what they are doing.
They were betrayed by their fellow citizens.
They were almost eradicated.
Israel was founded as their safe haven, but then they had to fight for their survival again.
And they have been under siege ever since.
But that's still no excuse to forget the lessons that were written with the FUCKING blood of their own ancestors.
They mourn their deaths, but the forgot WHY they died.
The Third Reich. Germany is a major world-power today. Germany is a liberal, pluralistic, tolerant, progressive society. But no matter where Germany goes, and when everybody else no longer cares about it, the Third Reich will still and always be a dark mark on the german soul that the Germans themselves will never forget.
And this brings me to Israel's future. What do they think their grand-children will say about them? What do they think their own history-books will say about them? What will the israeli history-books say about the ethnic cleansing of the Westbank? What will they say about the Gaza-bombings?
Imagine being an israeli child in the far future in a jewish Israel that indeed stretches from the river to the sea. Imagine thinking about all the blood, all the violence, all the injustice that lead to where you are now.
"What happened to the Palestinians? They used to live here, 100 years ago. Why are they no longer here?"
Do you think they will feel pride when thinking and talking about the fate of the Palestinians?
Do you think they will be proud of Israel when they read about the land-grabbing and the terrorism by the settlers and the military-occupation of palestinian territory that only ended once there no longer was palestinian territory?
THAT'S why I'm so passionate about Israel as a German. You don't know what it's like to inherit the guilt of the biggest horror in human history. You don't know what it's like to inherit a black stain on your soul that no good deed can ever undo.
I see them repeat Germany's mistakes.
I see the people of King David walk down a path of darkness and there is nothing I can do to help them but posting outrageous bile on a shitty internet-forum.
shira
(30,109 posts)Who fucking cares? Israel wants this land and, by Jehovah, they will get it.
Hysterical.
The vast majority of Israelis would laugh you out of the room for this.
If you're so frustrated at this because you're German, then point me to your frustrated posts regarding Palestinian leadership calling for the mass murder of Jewish apes and pigs. Where is this outrage when they encourage, praise, and reward such murderous acts?
One post please. Any post. You should know better than anyone here - as a German - how bad that is.
So where is your outrage about that? Show me.
The Netanyahu-government would not. The Westbank-settlers would not. And right now it's those who shape Israel's policy. The vast majority simply wants to live in peace? They don't get a say in what happens with respect to the Palestinians.
(Who's in charge of the Republican Party in the US? Moderate Republicans? The establishment? Or a small extremist faction?)
"If you're so frustrated at this because you're German, then point me to your frustrated posts regarding Palestinian leadership calling for the mass murder of Jewish apes and pigs. Where is this outrage when they encourage, praise, and reward such murderous acts?"
Fair question.
Personally, I can't really recall reading this kind of polemic in the news. (And I follow german and a tiny sliver of US-news.)
Maybe this hatred doesn't get reported because it's "in" to criticize Israel.
Maybe it's easier to report the Israel-on-Palestinian violence than the Palestinian-on-Israel violence because it has a big-guy-vs-small-guy narrative.
Maybe it's easier to report the Israel-on-Palestinian violence because it involves clear-cut, big things like use of the military and government-announcements.
Maybe the media doesn't report it because passing on this anti-semitic hatred and these insults would make the media-outlet parrot Anti-Semitism. Imagine a news-anchor saying this on TV: "Palestinian leader X gave a press-conference today. He talked about Y and repeatedly called Jews apes and pigs."
It seems, the permanent low-key Anti-Semitism simply doesn't garner as much media-attention as the rare and big decisions by the israeli government. Which, to be fair, is still a very weak excuse for my personal inattention. I cannot exclude the possibility of having a bias I am unaware of, but upon self-reflection, this is the only answer I can give you. I will try to be more perceptive (inward and outward) on that in the future.
I have no doubt that there are a vast number of Jews who simply want to live in peace with the Palestinians. But from the last 10 years or so I can remember only 2 articles about private jewish-israeli organizations working towards that. Why would anybody want to read an article about people getting along?
And I have no doubt that there are Palestinians who simply want to live in peace with the Jews, but cannot remember any articles on that. Why would anybody want to read an article about people getting along?
It's far easier to hate than to love. (For example: Workers get demotivated by tiny bad things in the workplace. But they do not get motivated by tiny good things in the workplace. Psychological tests have shown that.) Even if Israel were to do tiny good things to the Palestinians, the tiny bad things would still outweigh them in the short term.
Love grows by tiny gestures, proximity and time. Love does not grow by singular big gestures. Even if Israel were to commit to a big gesture, conceding something big to the Palestinians, the hatred would only recede marginally. Demanding that Israel use such big gestures to make peace with the Palestinians is just the most obvious solution, the easiest one... And there's still a big chance they will fail.
What Israel needs for a lasting peace is not a single big gesture like giving the Westbank to the Palestinians. Both the One-State- and the Two-State-solution won't work, in my opinion, because they are big gestures that don't touch people on a personal everyday-level.
The Palestinians cannot guarantee peace with Israel in exchange for a Two-State-solution because they know deep inside their hearts that this big gesture will mean nothing for their hatred because this big gesture isn't what they really want.
Israel cannot extinguish the palestinian hatred with one big gesture.
What the Palestinians want (not Hamas and Fatah and the hate-mongers, but the ordinary Palestinians) is a thousand tiny gestures.
Now, it would be easy and politically correct to demand that both sides simply be nice to each other. (And it would spare me your continued wrath.) But that's not how it works. Israel is an asymmetric scenario.
Israel has political power, judges, military, media and private citizens available to conduct those tiny gestures.
The Palestinians only have media and private citizens.
Israel has more tools available, that's why I see the bigger responsibility for achieving change on the side of Israel.
It could begin as simple as a different media-coverage:
Contrast the state-violence with the palestinian Anti-Semitism.
Join stories of hatred with stories of Jews and Palestinians getting along. Highlight successes that the Palestinians can relate to. Make bad news the exception, not the norm.
It's the hearts and minds of the ordinary people who decide about war and peace:
In Ukraine, the rebels of Eastern Ukraine honestly believe they are fighting for their freedom. While Russia would like to see them win, it wasn't Russia or some media who engineered that uprising. It was ordinary people.
Or the Arab Spring. It started when a man self-immolated on a tunisian market. It wasn't politicians who orchestrated the uprisings. It was ordinary people who were fed up.
And, getting back to Hitler (it's really hard to get rid of this guy), he didn't sneak his way to the top. A significant number of Germans really were that extremist because they were fed up: Foreign powers had bankrupted Germany after WWI out of pure malice, as a punishment. Hitler merely harvested that extremism by giving the rage a direction. (The german Communists also harvested a significant portion of Germany's extremism. The Nazis won the power-struggle, but it was the combined anti-democratic efforts of the Communists and the Nazis who destroyed the Weimar Republic.)
And, last but not least, the Palestinians: The latest "Intifada" may be driven by the media, but it's neither orchestrated nor coordinated on a political level. The tipping-point that has been reached is not on a political level, it's on a personal level. And of course it provoked counter-actions: The israeli Jews also reached a tipping-point on a personal level, which lead to a second wave of violence.
The big plans of the politicians are for nought if the people aren't into it. The israeli Jews must feel safe on a personal level with the Palestinians and the Palestinians must feel safe on a personal level with the israeli Jews. There won't be peace before that.
Okay, this might be the wrong time to ask this, but what is the attitude of the israeli Jews in general towards Palestinians? All we hear about in the news is Netanyahu and the settlers.
Is there animosity or do the israeli Jews simply not have a specific opinion on the Palestinians?
Is the animosity rather political or rather racist/religious?
grossproffit
(5,591 posts)outrageous bile is right.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)No need to twist yourself into knots - the poster has acknowledging making such a comparison.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)As long as you understand that context matters, it's all good.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Describes your post well.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)their attacks on their victims.
Attempting to legalize the byproduct of the rape of the Palestinian people still comes to the shameful truth: it's illegal.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Just curious to get your opinion on that.
It's merely an observation on the assumed link with past historical events. It's not a an attempt to compare the Nazis with Israel.
I actually don't agree with the post #7. Most Germans today played no role whatsoever in the Holocaust, and are not even indirectly responsible for the Holocaust in any way. The same thing goes for Israel - most Israelis haven't experienced the Holocaust and have no actual responsibility to act as if they learned something from it.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Sure seems like a comparison.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)But to your mind, there is no comparison being made.
In spite of using the phrase "just like the Nazis".
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)The comparison isn't a direct Nazi reference. It's allowed because it's only referring to a general feeling of cultural superiority, and as that particular poster is German and the context is his own historical baggage, it would be strange and convoluted to use a reference to a different cultural superiority than the one from his own past.
Sometimes it's allowed to make more or less indirect nazi comparisons, it all depends on the context.
NB: this is is no way a defence of post #2.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That is literally what the definition of a direct reference is.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Of course the comparison cannot be used 1:1. Not all of Israel is like all of the Third Reich. But there are similarities. Israel is using political approaches like state-sponsored discrimination that the Nazis also used.
And just to give you an example of what I mean with state-sponsored discrimination:
If the house of a jewish Westbank-settler isn't up to code, does the IDF come over with a bulldozer and raze it to the ground?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)At least you are honest enough to admit that you were in fact making such a comparison (unlike the poster above).
I only mention it because another poster said such comparisons are not made here so I was just providing yours as an example.
