Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumThe Gatekeepers: In New Film, Ex-Shin Bet Chiefs Denounce Occupation, Compare Israel to Nazi Germany
From Democracy Now:
January 29, 2013
Amidst a spate of killings by Israeli forces of unarmed Palestinians in the occupied West Bank, we turn to the stunning Oscar-nominated documentary, "The Gatekeepers." The film brings together six former heads of Israels internal security agency, the Shin Bet, collectively speaking out for the first time ever. They detail their methods against Palestinian militants and civilians in the Occupied Territories, including targeted killings, torture, recruiting informants, and the suppression of mass protests during two intifadas. But in doing so, they also criticize the occupation they were assigned with defending and warn that successive Israeli governments have endangered their countrys future by refusing to make peace. "We are making the lives of millions unbearable, into prolonged human suffering, [and] it kills me," Carmi Gillon says in the film. "[Weve become] a brutal occupation force similar to the Germans in World War II," adds Avraham Shalom. We are joined by the films director, Dror Moreh. [includes rush transcript]
Transcript:
AARON MATÉ: For our first segment, we turn to Israel and the Occupied Territories, where Israeli forces have begun the year with a spate of killings of unarmed Palestinian civilians. So far this month, at least five unarmed Palestinians have been shot to death by Israeli troops. The latest we know about was a 21-year-old Palestinian woman named Lubna Hanash, who was killed when Israeli forces opened fire at a West Bank school. A witness said Hanash was standing with a group of companions when they came under fire.
AHMED ABU KHERAN: [translated] Two Israeli solders traveling in a white car pointed their weapons, shooting indiscriminately at a college, where the women were standing at the entrance, and there was another man inside. They shot three people, and then a large number of soldiers arrived.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, on Monday, the Israeli human rights group BTselem put out a report saying Israeli forces have been "extensively and systematically" violating their own rules of engagement when suppressing protests in the West Bank, in many cases leading to Palestinian deaths. According to BTselem, since 2005 at least 48 Palestinians have been killed by live ammunition fired at people throwing stones. Six more were killed by rubber-coated bullets fired at dangerously close range, and two were killed by tear-gas canisters directly fired at protesters. This is BTselem spokesperson Sarit Michaeli.
in full: http://www.democracynow.org/2013/1/29/the_gatekeepers_in_new_film_ex
JoeBlowToo
(253 posts)and otherwise pilloried.
mike_c
(36,281 posts)eom
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)And, by the way, Avraham Shalom was a young kid in Vienna in the 1930s. He didnt know that hes a Jew. He was forced to go to school after the Kristallnacht. He was almost beaten to death by his classmates. He felt firsthand what it means to be a Jew under a racist regime. And when he compares that, he compares the Israeli occupation to the Germans, thatlike how the Germans treated the Poles, the Czechs, the Dutch, he knows what he speaks about. And I think that his worry is something that had resonance in me, as well, about whatwhere will it lead, the occupationI mean, if it will continue like that.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Only Jews can say those kind of words, he told Amanpour. And only they can have the justification to speak as they spoke in the film.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)I don't think we have ever done a straw poll along those lines.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)for saying less than that
shira
(30,109 posts)What a load of bullshit.
Who else besides Jews are compared to the Nazis?
What other countries out there massacring tens or hundreds of thousands are compared to Nazi Germany? Sudan? Rwanda? Syria?
Hell no. Never.
Only Israel.
This is filth...
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)I bet they'd enjoy communicating with you.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)And the director said:
Only Jews can say those kind of words. And only they can have the justification to speak as they spoke in the film.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)of the occupation.
Only Jews can say those kind of words...considering the Jews who have done so already and
are banned from Israel speaks volumes as to which Jews can say those kind of words.
shira
(30,109 posts)Why are some fellow "leftwing progressives" not only giving this slanderous bigotry a pass, but also participating in it themselves?
Maybe fellow Jews are banned in light of the fact it's a bigoted comparison.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Try again.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Read more: http://forward.com/articles/163105/anti-semitism-fight-hinges-on-definition/?p=all#ixzz2JUwtsnj6
I'm hoping you'll never again bring up the same BS you've attempted before WRT the EUMC definition, in an effort to legitimate "Israel = Nazi Germany" comparisons.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)lol I do understand why you luv it so, as it basically classifies criticism of Israel as antisemitism
from your link
The resolutions wording, critics said, threatened to label as anti-Semitic those who strongly criticize Israel over its occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, or advocate measures to oppose its policies.
Among other things, the resolution condemned calls to boycott, divest from and sanction Israel as a means of demonizing Israel, and included as examples of anti-Semitic discourse assertions that Israel is a racist, apartheid, or Nazi state [and] that Israel is guilty of heinous crimes against humanity, such as ethnic cleansing and genocide.
Read more: http://forward.com/articles/163105/anti-semitism-fight-hinges-on-definition/?p=all#ixzz2JUyjkXF6
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)kind of dates them doesn't it? and still does not prove that the EU's shelved definition was adopted
shira
(30,109 posts)So the Obama Admin. has clearly adopted it as well.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)what it showed was that the Ca legislature adopted a nonbinding resolution that was not exactly the same as the EU's discarded definition your touting but do keep trying
shira
(30,109 posts)...are antisemitic.
The CA legislature wants that kind of bigoted shit to stop.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)You cannot appreciate why the comparison is made on any level and the distress he expressed
as to why he used it...he qualifies himself quite clearly.
shira
(30,109 posts)Thing is, there are no other countries frequently compared to Nazi Germany.
And there are certainly no people or organizations out there who compare BOTH Israel and any other country in the world (take your pick) to Nazi Germany.
This is a unique charge vs. the Jewish state.
Clear antisemitism.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)you miss the bigger point. Not surprising considering your track record.
shira
(30,109 posts)....but also many other agencies committed to fighting antisemitism. I don't know of any organizations against anti-semitism that disagree.
That's all I'm arguing.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)As an anti-racist, you should be concerned about such bigotry. It doesn't matter if a Shin Bet chief said it. It's still wrong.
The US state dept. says it's wrong as it violates the EUMC working definition of anti-semitism.
Bigotry of any type is wrong. What's preventing you from opposing this bigotry?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)women, I find your mindset a hopeless matter.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)because that hasn't yet been incorporated in a US State Department white paper.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)...and the US State Dept. website clearly shows they also believe Israel/Nazi comparisons are antisemitic.
Hey, tell me. What kind or amount of evidence do you require proving this?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)adopted a nonbinding resolution
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)When the California State Assembly passed a nonbinding resolution recently, urging state-funded colleges to clamp down on anti-Semitism, the storm that followed sent some of the resolutions supporters backtracking.
The resolutions wording, critics said, threatened to label as anti-Semitic those who strongly criticize Israel over its occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, or advocate measures to oppose its policies.
Among other things, the resolution condemned calls to boycott, divest from and sanction Israel as a means of demonizing Israel, and included as examples of anti-Semitic discourse assertions that Israel is a racist, apartheid, or Nazi state [and] that Israel is guilty of heinous crimes against humanity, such as ethnic cleansing and genocide.
Critics replied that such actions chill free-speech advocacy. And in response, at least one co-sponsor now says she will push a new resolution in the legislatures next session, one that celebrates the First Amendment and promotes an environment on campuses where students can feel safe to express differing opinions.
Read more: http://forward.com/articles/163105/anti-semitism-fight-hinges-on-definition/?p=all#ixzz2JV5t9eN8
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)That's why it's controversial.
The EUMC was replaced by the FRA (Fundamental Rights Agency). That agency still uses the EUMC definition for data collection purposes. It's to help authorities identify what could be antisemitic.
It's still relevant.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)There is no issue of the FRA, as an EU agency, endorsing any definition, the official, Ioannis Dimitrakopoulos told the Forward, referring to the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights, the EUMCs successor agency, by its acronym.
http://forward.com/articles/163105/anti-semitism-fight-hinges-on-definition/?p=all#ixzz2JV5t9eN8
I'm not sure why we keep reading over and over how wording is still relevant when it is apparently not in use by the FRA.
shira
(30,109 posts)...legally (prosecutable) antisemitic.
The thing is when the Israel/Nazi Germany analogy is used, THAT is taken into consideration by authorities investigating hate crimes. It doesn't mean it can be prosecuted. And it won't. It simply means that the analogy is evidence (along with other statements) of anti-semitic incitement, crimes, jew-baiting, etc. that could lead to much worse.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Well... Pretty much everyone that has gotten on someone else's bad side, since the 1940's at least? Robert Mugabe's a Nazi. Iranians have always been Nazis; Mossadegh was a Nazi, the Shah was a Nazi, the Ayatollahs are Nazis. Saddam was a Nazi (but then so was king Faisal, go figure.) Vladimir Putin is a Nazi, and so is Jaques Chiraq. Anyone who supports Palestinians on any level is a Nazi, as if anyone who supports Israel on any level. correct someone's grammar? Ypu're a Nazi. The entire Republican party is made of nazis, and so too are all the Democrats. I've seen people called Nazis because of whether they choose Horde or Alliance in WoW. Christians are Nazis, Muslims are Nazis, Jews are Nazis too. The entire UN is Nazi, and so are gay people and feminists. Environmentalists are Nazis and industrialists, too.
You're not a special victim, snowflake.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)... was speaking of 1930s Germany when systemic racism and ethnic cleansing was rampant, but not yet genocide. So, Shira is either being obtuse or constructing a straw man.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Would she ever let that come to pass?
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Also, Hamas' charter (ideology) is genocidal. They're very clear about their goal being the obliteration of Israel and its Jews.
Do the same people/groups accusing equating Israel to Nazis do so WRT Hamas as well?
In the Sudan, there's real apartheid and genocide (at least until recent years).
Do the same people/groups accusing equating Israel to Nazis do so WRT Sudan as well?
Shall I look forward to a yes/no answer to these questions, or not?
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)... for an explanation as to why you are arguing a straw man.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113429807#post13
shira
(30,109 posts)Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)We weren't talking about Hamas or the Sudan, yet you wanted to deflect to that.
I simply pointed out your straw man, and you're now deflecting from that, as well. The Shin Bet heads describe it as similar to 1930s Germany. I'll take their word over yours.
shira
(30,109 posts)If you want to believe the claim is true, that's one thing.
But it's bigoted.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)That's a piss-poor argument.
shira
(30,109 posts)...committed to fighting racism and bigotry.
They say the analogy/parallel is antisemitic, for reasons discussed already.
You have a different opinion than the experts on antisemitism. Why do you think you know what antisemitism is but they don't? Realize that every major Jewish organization committed to fighting antisemitism agrees with the EUMC/FRA definition.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)... who committed himself to protecting Israel, is an anti-semite? Is that your argument?
To say that there are parallels between the way the Israeli government treats the Palestinians with the way the Germans (generally) and Nazis (specifically) treated undesirables (Jews, Slavs, Leftists, Enemies of the State, etc.) in the 1930s is not anti-semitic.
Many people see the parallels, as well as I. I am not an anti-semite. And if you think I am, then you are part of the forces that serve to dilute its meaning.
shira
(30,109 posts)It's like someone who says something derogatory about another race or ethnicity.
They may not be bigoted, but what they said sure is.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Not me BTW.
http://forward.com/articles/163105/anti-semitism-fight-hinges-on-definition/?p=all#ixzz2JV5t9eN8
Read more: http://forward.com/articles/163105/anti-semitism-fight-hinges-on-definition/?p=all#ixzz2JWK4LQTt
Some in I/P just love to mix reality with fantasy. Some see it as piss poor.
shira
(30,109 posts)In order to facilitate the data collection work of NFPs the EUMC developed, together with the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights (ODIHR) and Jewish organisations, and on the basis of consultation with experts, a guide to data collection on anti-Semitic incidents. (This followed on from an earlier report in which it had identified the lack of both legal and operational definitions regarding anti-Semitism). The guide includes a proposal for a non-legal working definition to be used at national level by primary datacollecting agencies. Following feedback by the NFPs and other stakeholders the guide, which is considered as work in progress, will be reviewed.[9]
The working definition has been adopted, used, or recommended by a number of European and other organisations which monitor and combat hate crimes, including the OSCE, the Council of Europe's European Commission against Racism and Intolerance (ECRI), the UK's All-Party Parliamentary Group Against Antisemitism, and the National Union of Students in the UK. [citation needed]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_Rights_Agency
It's still relevant for data collection purposes WRT hate crimes.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)If so, what did you think of it?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)that offers the only availability for me. I would need to see it in Manhattan.