When Sharon was great

[oberliner]

The single greatest demonstration of political leadership I’ve ever witnessed in my 62 years in America and Israel was Ariel Sharon’s disengagement from Gaza. No other Israeli politician could have done it – nobody else could have defeated the settler movement and its hardcore allies. Anyone from the left would have had the entire right wing, moderates and radicals, against him, which would have scared the Israeli mainstream stiff, and a move to evacuate 8,500 settlers and the Israeli army from the interior of Gaza, which Israel had occupied for nearly 40 years, never would have gotten off the ground. To pull off something as cataclysmic as disengagement – the bulldozing of 21 settlements in Gaza plus another four in the West Bank, accomplished in six days in August 2005 – a prime minister has to have a decisive majority of the Israeli public behind him; otherwise the resistance of the settler movement, which more than makes up in fanaticism for what it lacks in numbers, will stop him.

While there were other politicians on the right who wanted to get out of Gaza, any of them would have been overrun by the Likud and the other nationalist parties, because while the idea of cutting loose from Gaza may have appealed to them, the thought of actually trying to do it and facing the wrath of not only the settler movement but of their parties, their colleagues, their friends, their families and their own psychological barriers was way, way beyond their ability to even contemplate. It took somebody of immense popularity and prestige – somebody of such stature that he could turn the moderate right wing completely around so that it would follow him even out of Gaza – to not only plan but go through with disengagement. That somebody also had to be sufficiently cunning and ruthless to win that political battle over the settlers, a battle that lasted almost two years. And that right-wing leader also had to be convinced at the bottom of his soul that disengagement was necessary; otherwise he would not be able to marshal the extraordinary will needed to make it happen – to win. The only person in Israel at that time who met all those criteria was Sharon.

http://972mag.com/when-sharon-was-great/85420/

[Israeli]

1. Hullo !!!

You do realise this was written by Larry Derfner ?

You are being totally inconsistent oberliner ....what was that comment you made to me when I posted something by him ?????

So, how much of what Larry said do you agree with ?

I agree with this ....

" No other Israeli politician could have done it – nobody else could have defeated the settler movement and its hardcore allies. Anyone from the left would have had the entire right wing, moderates and radicals, against him, which would have scared the Israeli mainstream stiff, and a move to evacuate 8,500 settlers and the Israeli army from the interior of Gaza, which Israel had occupied for nearly 40 years, never would have gotten off the ground. To pull off something as cataclysmic as disengagement – the bulldozing of 21 settlements in Gaza plus another four in the West Bank, accomplished in six days in August 2005 – a prime minister has to have a decisive majority of the Israeli public behind him; otherwise the resistance of the settler movement, which more than makes up in fanaticism for what it lacks in numbers, will stop him."

Nobody else had the balls to do it but Arik .

I marched against him on 25 September 1982 after Sabra and Shatila , calling for his resignation ....together with 400,000 other like minded Israelis .

I despised the man and his politics and what he did to us ....you really need to read this :
Why I can't mourn for Ariel Sharon....by Amit Schejter
I know ... I know ...
its behind Haaretz's paywall .... but with a little bit of effort you will get there .

Like Larry I salute Arik ... for showing the world that " the settler movement could be defeated, that settlements could be evacuated and occupied land relinquished, and the world wouldn’t end. If Israel ever does take down the occupation and make peace with the Palestinians, the disengagement from Gaza will stand as a crucial stepping stone on the way. And it was all thanks to one man, one politician, and for that – if for pretty much nothing else – I admired Sharon tremendously. It was a privilege to be here and watch him engineer an upheaval for the good. "

PS ... arent you lucky shira is under a temporally gag

[oberliner]

2. "You do realise this was written by Larry Derfner ?"

Yes, indeed I do!

[Israeli]

3. and ....

????

non committal as always .

You do realise that when sitting on the fence you tend to get splinters in your ass ?

[oberliner]

4. I thought it was an interesting article

Worth reading, especially bearing in mind who wrote it.

Plus it was one of the few recent 972mag articles that didn't get posted here for some reason.

[Scootaloo]

5. Ahem...

It is absolutely stunning that this person can be still be published by an ostensibly credible source after his behavior during the Greta Berlin fiasco.

Edit to Add:

There is even a comment of support from Greta herself to this article:

Greta A. Berlin
"Great article, as usual, from Larry Derfner...."

Birds of a feather!
- Oberliner

That fact that it was written by Larry Derfner should automatically invalidate the link

He is just awful.
-Oberliner

As long as the writer isn't Larry Derfner or Yossi Gurvitz

The rest of them are OK - though the guy who was excited about being on an internet list is kind of strange too.

I posted another article from there as well a few days ago but it sank without comment unfortunately.
-Oberliner

If there's anybody who knows racists, it's Larry Derfner

The irony of Larry Derfner taking these statements and condemning them in this fashion while staunchly defending the "misunderstood" Greta Berlin's "Zionists Ran the Holocaust and the Concentration Camps" comment is staggering.

That anyone could publish anything this man writes is a baffling mystery.
-Oberliner

Post those Larry Derfner articles with pride!

He certainly doesn't bother with any "typical PC crap" like, for example, distancing oneself from people who say "Zionists Ran the Holocaust and the Concentration Camps."
-Oberliner

There's more, if you would like me to keep going... Lots more.

So what's the deal, did someone drop your leash, and now you're allowed to have independent ideas or something?

[shaayecanaan]

8. Ah yes, I remember those...

Sometimes I wish we had better quality pro-Israel flunkies around here. Occasionally they do descend to the level of self-parodying pastiche.

[LeftishBrit]

10. 'Pro-Israel flunkies'?

I can assure you that any real 'pro-Israel flunkie' would strongly disapprove of Oberliner and most of his views.

[oberliner]

11. In the real world that's what I deal with on a regular basis

Only in this universe am I considered to be on the other team.

[shaayecanaan]

12. Surely you jest (nt)

[shaayecanaan]

9. I must admit, we preferred Sharon to Begin...

By "we", I mean Maronites. Begin used to talk to Bashir Gemayel quite a lot.

Begin was clever in a bookish way, but quite strange. He first started speaking to bashir in English. Bashir had been in the US and could speak English okay but preferred French. So Begin said okay and started prattling away in French. He could speak quite a few languages.

Begin always talked about how Lebanon was Czechoslovakia and how the Arabs were Nazis and the Lebanese Christians were Jews, and Israel was going to save the Arab Christians to show its benificence to the world. They weren't going to stand by like the Europeans. He never gave the impression that he had much idea as to what went on operationally. There was one time when Begin went to Beaufort castle during the war, I can't remember what happened exactly but he was a bit clueless.

Sharon was quite sharp as to what went on operationally. But like most Israelis he suffered from a self belief that he could eat nails and shit brass tacks. There was an assumption by Israel that Lebanese were just another bunch of scared peasants. They didn't realize that having a weak central government meant that Lebanon was a freer society in which all the different communities had to provide for their own security. By the time they had that fact pointed out to them it was too late.

[Israeli]

13. All ' Revisionist Zionists ' are ...

" quite strange " IMHO shaayecanaan .... from Jabotinsky to Begin to Benjamin Netanyahu and every one in between .

[Israeli]

14. out of interest shaayecanaan....

how much do you know about us ?

by "us" I refer to the opposite side of the coin to " Revisionist Zionism " .

We held a get together recently ... to celebrate Uri Avnery’s 90th birthday .

If you are interested here is a video :

Its a bit long winded ... especially Amikam Gurewitz's part ...which as an atheist bored the hell out of me .

The basis under discussion was ... " will Israel exist ninety years from now? "

Here is a english transcript :

http://gush-shalom.org.toibillboard.info/text_e.htm

Shlomo Sand and Talia Sasson were the ones that impressed me the most .

[shaayecanaan]

15. an interesting piece

But as sand says, it is interesting that there wasn't a single Arab in the room.

I think it is true you will see increased israelization amongst the Arabs, but at the same time it is inevitable that they will need to be on more of an equal footing.

[Israeli]

16. there were Arabs in the room shaayecanaan.....

Prof. Sand was complaining that there was none on the panel .

" I think it is true you will see increased israelization amongst the Arabs, but at the same time it is inevitable that they will need to be on more of an equal footing. "

there already is " increased israelization amongst the Arabs " .... that is why they are so upset with Avigdor Liberman.
see :
http://972mag.com/for-palestinian-citizens-nothing-but-contempt-and-rejection-for-liberman-plan/85899/

yes of course they will need to be on a more equal footing , as all non Jewish citizens of the State need to be .
that is what post zionism is all about shaayecanaan.
see :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-Zionism

In contrast to political Zionism's goal of the Jewish state, many post-Zionists advocate the evolution of Israel into a non-ideological, secular, liberal democratic state, to be officially neither Jewish nor Arab in character.

Mainly after the Oslo Accords, a new movement started amongst a large section of left-wing Israelis who believe that the state of Israel should no longer declare itself to be a Jewish democratic state and should rather focus on its democratic aspects. This movement seeks to create social equality in Israel.

[shaayecanaan]

17. I must say as well...

With the upcoming food crisis, peak oil, etc etc I wouldn't be willing to give more than a seventy percent chance to any given country to last the next ninety years.

Particularly this applies in the case of Israel, which is located so closely to the third world.

I remember the story of how some Sudanese refugees ended up in an Arab village and were immediately run out of town. In economic terms the experience of the Israeli Arabs is much different to the Palestinians. Even if you share the same culture, economics matters. The plight, for example, of the Oklahoma dust bowl refugees in California is testament to that.

[LeftishBrit]

6. Interesting article

[William deB. Mills]

7. Condemning Gaza

Gaza was and remains an Israeli laboratory for testing theories of repression. Sharon only pretended to leave, actually fixing the game to ensure Palestinian failure by making Gaza ungovernable. Gazans are free to starve but not to import food, fish, travel, get medicine, or in any other significant way govern themselves. And obviously, they do not control their own security or foreign affairs. Gaza is nothing more than an Indian reservation surrounded by the cavalry with orders to shoot on sight. What Sharon did was tactically cute from the expansionist perspective; nothing more.