ISIS has nothing to do with Israel

[shira]

Tzipi Livni is a realistic politician. She represents the right and appropriate combination of a national and Zionist approach with an approach pursuing a peace agreement. She has been trying with all her might to prevent the bi-national state disaster. She has no illusions and she is not one of those ignorant supporters of a solution which includes a general clearance sale.

This calls for a full disclosure: She offered me a secure place on her party's Knesset list. I turned down the offer, but not because I oppose her way.

Last Friday, in an interview to Nahum Barnea, she said things which should be heard. But then came the surprise: "Anyone who claims that the ISIS problem can be solved without a real effort to resolve the Palestinian problem is throwing sand in your eyes." I read it and couldn't believe my eyes. Is this the politician I regard so much? John Kerry said something of the kind, and tried to explain that it wasn't he who said it, but that it was what Arab states' leaders had told him. Now it turns out that Livni herself is uttering this nonsense. What the hell is wrong with her?

That's sad, because all the important and true and justified things Livni has to say are seen in a completely different manner after this statement. Does she really believe that there is a link between the Islamic State's growth, or the Islamic State's success, or the Islamic State's development and the conflict taking place here? Is she serious? Hasn't she heard that branches of the cancerous jihad have been nesting in Somalia, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan and in Nigeria for a long time now? Hasn't she heard about the huge capital which has reached jihad organizations from Saudi Arabia and Qatar? Hasn't she heard about the hundreds of thousands of people, mostly innocent, who have died in the war waged mainly by the United States and Britain in Afghanistan and in Pakistan?

So it's Israel's fault? What else is Israel's fault? Perhaps global warming too?

more...
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4584724,00.html

[Jefferson23]

1. It's funny how some in Israel and their supporters cling to denial and cling to those further

to the right..and I am no fan of Livni, at all.

[shira]

3. Livni would be a Democrat here in the US.

Of course you probably think the vast majority of Democrats are too rightwing for your tastes.

[Jefferson23]

8. Livni would be a hawk Democrat here, we have those. n/t

[oberliner]

13. What will you do if Hilary Clinton is the Dem nominee?

Would you sit that one out?

[Jefferson23]

14. Good to see you recognize her as a hawk.

Sit what one out?

[oberliner]

15. She voted for the Iraq War

Would you sit out the 2016 presidential election (i.e. not vote) if Hilary Clinton is the Democratic nominee?

[Jefferson23]

16. I have not ever, not voted, have you? n/t

[Scootaloo]

2. Let me tell you a story.

Ever had a really nasty splinter Shira? I spent a summer working with my dad, putting up house frames, and i discovered how they work when I got a nice chunk of pine embedded in my palm. see, you've got this big splinter in there, and it gets inflamed. The flesh swells, gets red and hot, and pus starts collecting around the sliver. Now, with some poking and prodding you can get the pus out, and get a little relief of the pressure. But it's going ot come back in a few hours. Again, and again, and again, hypothetically forever. As ypou poke and mash, you are ctually hurting yourself more, putting a big bruise over the inflamed flesh. At some point, it mightget infected and hten you'v got a real problem on your hands (literally, in my case.)

The only solution, obviously, is to remove the sliver.

My dad told me this when it happened, and passed me one of the razors he carried around for his utility knife. I didn't wanna. Cut my palm? I'd rather have the splinter! So I let the splinter sit, and hurt, squishing out the goop (and sometimes little bits of the sliver, which I thought was a triumph!) and the longer I waited, the more it hurt. My dad offered to cut it out for me, and the thought still terrified me. I'd still rather have this piece of white pine digging around in my dermis. So i let it sit more and more. Until finally it was so unbearable that I finally did cut it out. it wasn't happy times; the thing was in there deep, but i got it out. I washed it out - that was a blinding experience of pain - and bandaged my hand. Two days later, you wouldn't know there had been a problem. I spent a week with an infected splinter in my hand, making that hand damn near useless, and in constant agony, becuse I was too chicken to take an action that would hurt for a moment but allow the whole mes to heal.

The occupation is like that sliver, Shira. is it the only problem in the region? of course not. But its constant presence is an inflaming factor. Israel knows this. Israel knows that perpetuating th occupation only makes things worse as time goes on. every day, a little more inflammation, a little more bruising, a little more blood and pus. But like a 14 year old kid, it suffers severe shrinkagew at the thought of actually removing that sliver.

[shira]

4. Jihadi groups will still attack Israel even if Israel withdraws....

....to the '67 lines next week. Like the Terminator, they will never stop in their pursuit of destroying Israel and its Jews. They're nasty bullies who cannot be reasoned with.

Why is this so difficult for you to comprehend?

[Scootaloo]

5. Perhaps so

But then that same kind of argument was made against the peace treaty with Egypt as well. And also against the very concept of two states. and against the treaty with Jordan. And any number of other things.

But the fact is, the occupation is untenable, harmful to everyone and is serving to make a problem worse. Your argument amounts to 14 year old me, thinking that a cut to the top layers of skin might hurt more than the certain 7 days of festering agony.

[shira]

6. Egypt and Jordan's leaders weren't Jihadis.

Both Fatah and Hamas are Jihadi organizations.

Besides, a Palestinian state has been offered up many times since 1937. All have been rejected due to one thing: They will not tolerate the existence of the Jewish state.

If an end to occupation and settlements was the problem, the problem would've been solved in 1999-2000.

[Scootaloo]

7. No, they were Arab Nationalists

Which at the time were perceived as a much greater threat than "jihadis." These are points on a continuum of "pro-Israel" voices against peaceful conflict resolutions. And they didn't pan out quite like the doomsayers predicted.

Ending the occupation might not put out all the fires - no one is saying it will, except people who need it as a strawman to continue the occupation. But it will take away some of the fuel for the fire.

And if you want to talk history, maybe start a new thread for it Shira. or read one of the dozens and dozens of old ones where we've gone over this ground before.

[shira]

9. The occupation should end, I agree....

But Israel has genuine security issues to consider.

For example, Hamas tried to overthrow Fatah in the W.Bank recently. Only Israel prevented that from happening. Think Israelis are stupid for having a problem with Hamas controlling the W.Bank?

[Scootaloo]

10. if you agree, there really is no "but" to be had

Maintaining the occupation in perpetuity doesn't weaken Hamas.

[shira]

11. You cannot expect the vast majority of Israelis to accept....

....Hamas ruling the W.Bank in such close proximity to major population centers. They won't allow their leader to make such a suicidal move without first making solid security arrangements.

[Scootaloo]

12. You're making assumptions by leaps and bounds, Shira

Continuing the occupation doesn't weaken hamas.

[shaayecanaan]

17. your OP argues that the jihadi groups have nothing to do

with Israel. Now you're arguing that in fact they are intending to destroy Israel and restore historical Palestine. Which is it?

[shira]

18. The OP is about ISIS. There are other Jihadi groups....

....like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood, Al Aqsa Martyrs, and Hezbollah.