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AlexSFCA

(6,137 posts)
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 03:37 PM Mar 2019

Leaving Neverland

I’m surprised it’s not being discussed here. As a huge Jackson fan since childhood, it was heartbreaking to watch. I remember how happy I was in 2015 that he was acquitted so I beleived in the judicial system. However, I do beleive the two men in this new documentary without reservation. I think it is very important film, not even so much about Jackson but how ‘child grooming’ works. A must see for any parent. The parents of those two boys (now men) are definately at fault also. How can someone leave 8 year old boy with a grown man to sleep in the same bed?? They allowrd it cause they were showered with money from Jackson including paying off their mortgage.

Anyway, knowing all this and beleiving all this, I’m somehow able to separate him as a musician. I never thought of Jackson as an actual person anyway, he was 100% entertainer to me. Also, even if you don’t want to hear his music anymore, you can’t apply this standard to his songs from childhood era as he was just a child then not a predator.

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hlthe2b

(101,337 posts)
1. I am in no way "in denial", but I just have no desire to watch
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 03:43 PM
Mar 2019

I feel bad for the accusers and any others who may have suffered. I surely don't think Michael Jackson to be innocent of all (or even most) charges. I suppose the value is for the victims to get to tell their stories and be taken seriously. But, I see little value beyond that.

It is a sad chapter and I don't discount that Jackson's own physical and psychological abuse at the hands at his now-dead father is at least an "element" to the story.

Entertainment? NO. I won't watch the R. Kelly or any of a litany of these kinds of "documentary" pieces.
To each his/her own...

And no, I've not destroyed my MJ music. Nor will I. If his accusers want to sue the estate, so be it. The estate already has my money and that of countless millions. That he was horrendously flawed seems apparent. But, he was likewise quite talented. If he were alive, I think he would again(eventually) be held to account, but he is not.

AlexSFCA

(6,137 posts)
8. I guess justice was served
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 09:22 PM
Mar 2019

cause he essentially killed himself living in fear and probably guilt for the last 15 years of his life. The childhood was stolen from the two men in the documentary and others (Jordy Chandler, Gavin Arvizo, etc.) It was the right thing to do for them to be completely open about it and have this documentary, I bet it is incredibly therpaeutic and healthy things to do. More than anything, the film is educational and will likely become mandated viewing in college psychology programs.

Heartstrings

(7,349 posts)
2. My daughter took hip hop classes with Wade Robson
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 03:43 PM
Mar 2019

So I got to know him in the early 2000's...he was already an incredible choreographer and I find him credible....

I have not watched the documentary and not sure I want to....I fear for McCauley Culkin, his siblings and Elijah Woods and what stories they may be keeping to themselves for the sake of the "King of Pop".....

lunamagica

(9,967 posts)
5. I don't think famoust kids were at risk. His victims were more likely poor, vulnerable kids from
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 04:21 PM
Mar 2019

broken homes.

JenniferJuniper

(4,487 posts)
6. Agree, and he was so careful and deliberate
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 05:42 PM
Mar 2019

about grooming the Moms as well. (and one father)

He almost certainly didn't do that with the famous kids' parents. And he eventually ended up using them as shields against the working class victims.

He truly was a despicable human being. Very cunning.

fleur-de-lisa

(14,612 posts)
3. What could go wrong in leaving your small son alone with a weird guy who:
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 03:49 PM
Mar 2019

Lived in a castle/zoo with a chimp named Bubbles?

Slept in an oxygen tank?

Had so much plastic surgery his nose almost fell off?

Looked like a cadaver wearing a Captain Crunch costume?

lunamagica

(9,967 posts)
4. I never did, and will never, ever understand how anyone can think that young boys
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 04:18 PM
Mar 2019

having sleepovers with a grown man could be "innocent" and "OK".

I didn't care if he was acquitted or not. It just common sense, people! There is only one reason a man will want to sleep with boys. There is not any innocent justification for that.

It always baffled me that he got away with it.

TexasBushwhacker

(19,887 posts)
7. I agree, however I don't think we had as much awareness about grooming 20 to 40 years ago
Tue Mar 12, 2019, 06:53 PM
Mar 2019

and frankly, we didn't take molestation all that seriously for a long time. Remember Chester the Molester in Hustler? That ran from '76 to '89. Can you imagine anyone finding that funny now? The issue of consent for EVERYONE became important because feminists made it important. It wasn't always that way. Anything other than "violent" sexual assault that caused bodily injury was pretty much laughed off with a wink and a "boys will be boys". For far too many it still is. Look at how Kavanaugh was accepted.

Johnny2X2X

(18,434 posts)
9. Sickening
Sun Mar 17, 2019, 12:21 PM
Mar 2019

Jackson was just awful. The manipulation and control he excercised over these boys and their families was calculated and disturbing. He created dire consequences, real and unreal, for his victims if they told. Their careers, their family’s well being, and their sense of self worth became dependent on MJ.

This particular documentary really does a great job at showing an aspect of some abuse rarely discussed. That the abuser tricks the children into thinking it’s OK and normal, and even gets the abused to go think they love the abuser and defend them. And this can continue for years after the abuse ends. There are people that are abused and take it to the grave with them defending their abuser.

If there was ever a doubt, this film removed them. Michael Jackson was a vile sexual predator and a pedophikr.

IcyPeas

(21,610 posts)
10. Paris Jackson Resurfaces After Denying Attempted Suicide Report
Sun Mar 17, 2019, 04:46 PM
Mar 2019
Paris Jackson, daughter of controversial pop icon Michael Jackson, is denying that she was recently hospitalized after attempting suicide. TMZ claimed on Saturday that Jackson “was transported to a hospital and placed on 5150 hold” after harming herself, which so-called family sources blamed “in large to the fallout from Leaving Neverland.” The model and singer quickly struck back over Twitter, blasting the gossip site for what she called false information: “fuck you you fucking liars.”


his children certainly had a weird childhood. I wonder how they are.


https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2019/03/paris-jackson-suicide-attempt-hospitalized

Phentex

(16,329 posts)
11. I caught part of it by accident...
Sun Mar 17, 2019, 06:25 PM
Mar 2019

I woke up in the middle of the night and tried to find Forensic Files. Instead, they were showing Leaving Neverland. I found it fascinating. I incorrectly assumed it would be shown again but when I checked, it's only available by subscription.

So many people have said they won't listen to his music anymore but I am torn on that. I think I agree with you on the earlier stuff.

Merlot

(9,681 posts)
12. Never a fan of MJ's music, but now can't stand the sound of it.
Mon Mar 18, 2019, 06:14 PM
Mar 2019

If it comes on the radio while driving, or on streaming at home I change the channel. His music really bothers me now, except the music from the Jackson 5.

I have not seen the HBO special, instead heard an interview with both the men on NPR. They were credible and that interview forever changed on my opinion of MJ. Previously I thought the court trials were about inappropriate behavior by a very damaged and disturbed individual (MJ), but it didn't go farther than that. Easy to believe since he was found not guilty. Now it sickens me.

llmart

(15,386 posts)
13. Didn't see the movie...
Thu Mar 21, 2019, 07:36 PM
Mar 2019

but last week I listened to Oprah's entire podcast interview with the two young men. It was pretty heartwrenching and after listening to them both I believe them 100%. Michael Jackson was one sick person.

dewsgirl

(14,961 posts)
14. 1. I separate Kevin Spacey being a despicable person and
Tue Mar 26, 2019, 07:00 AM
Mar 2019

a phenomenal actor.
2. The level of grooming was shocking. The fact that he groomed the parents as well as the kids, is something I hadn't even thought of.

AlexSFCA

(6,137 posts)
15. and I think Spacey is nowhere near that level
Tue Mar 26, 2019, 08:32 AM
Mar 2019

and sophistication of MJ crimes, we are talking about 7y.o. But, yes, I think art is separate from the person.

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