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[Tuesday Afternoon]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Tuesday Afternoon) on Tue Jan 24, 2012, 10:43 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Tobin S.]

1. My parents aren't like that, but I've met people like that before.

It seems to me that it would be extremely difficult to get a narcissistic person into therapy. Probably even more difficult than a paranoid person.

Here's one tactic you might try when dealing with her. Don't try to say anything when you are around her. Just remain silent. Just let her ramble. Maybe she will notice that you are not trying to speak to her at some point and be quiet long enough to listen. If she doesn't, well, you've saved yourself some energy.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

2. Tobin,

I appreciate you trying. I wished it worked like that. I have tried that tactic. It doesn't matter. Once I pause for a breath, she is talking. She was never listening, she was always just waiting for a chance to talk again.

There is no energy saved because it is all spent being frustrated.

Forget treatment. Narcissists don't think they need treatment. There is nothing wrong with them They are perfect. It is everyone else who is at fault.

Anyway, thanks for listening.

[MedicalAdmin]

24. IT seems to me that you are not getting the point.

A very good therapist I know describes it as getting hooked, like by a fishing line. It seems that you mom is very good at pushing buttons. Reread your post. YOu are obviously frustrated and getting hooked and reeled in every time you talk to her. It happens to lots of people.

It used to happen to my wife who is one of the most savvy and astute medical people I have ever met. Until my wife learned to shut up and stop getting hooked by her childhood desire to be listened to or heard, she wasn't able to make headway. The advice to just shut up and let you mom talk like background music is good. Don't think about it because, lets' face it, it's really just verbal diarrhea anyway.

Once you do that, it will be like a weight lifted off your shoulders and you will be able to realize that you don't need to be heard and you will be able to listen. Eventually maybe you mom will start to listen as well.

Good luck.

[EFerrari]

3. Yes. She has always been the way you describe, to a degree,

and it will only get worse from here. It's not so much that she thinks she's perfect but her assumption is that she is always in the right and in the last couple of years, that I am attacking her in some way, so there's low level paranoia going on most of the time.

I try to avoid engaging her when she is too stressed out because it inevitably results in her blowing up at me.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

4. thanks for reading/listening

and understanding.

Talking on the phone is especially hard because of her loss of hearing.

[EFerrari]

5. Yep. Talking on the phone is mostly listening on the phone

to stuff you never get to respond to. Which is why I left home at 16 in the first place. lol

What helps me a little is to remind myself not to have any expectations about 2-way communication. It saves a little bit of frustration if I remember not to expect actual relationship because there's mostly no one there available to have one.

Hang in there, Tuesday Afternoon.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

6. yes, you are right --

I get frustrated because I still want a real relationship and forget there is really no one there to have one with.

So weird to grow up with a Mother and yet not a Mother.

[MedicalAdmin]

25. That is exactly like my wifes relationship with her mom.

She has often told me that she was very sad that she never had a mother in terms of someone to mother her. I think that is why when my mom died that my wife took it so hard.

[NRaleighLiberal]

7. Yes....very challenging - more complex than simply narcissism in my case -

My dad passed away rather suddenly in 2007. It was clear my mom (she is now 83) couldn't stay alone in their house, so she went to assisted living in late 2007, living within a few miles of my brother (that's a story for the Boomers group in itself - my relationship with him has suffered because of his willingness to take on the near-by caregiving role, which he really isn't well suited for)...

Anyway - just an example - on my wife/my 31st anniversary a few weeks ago, my mom called to wish us a happy anniversary - which lasted 5 seconds - then proceeded to spend the next 30 minutes telling me how miserable she is, everything is, etc etc - but the narcissism (which to tell the truth has always been there to some degree) is complicated by coming and going of symptoms of Lewy Body Dementia (the diagnosis of the medical staff at the assisted living facility). She is physically doing very well, but after a long time resistance to accepting her plight (it is an excellent facility), she is still a pretty miserable person to talk to (to listen to, more accurately) most of the time.

My wife and I find ourselves in one of those situations where various family members problems are chipping away at our attempts at staying positive - kind of all pulling us downward - both our daughters, my mom and brother, my wife's sister, and my wife's mom and brother are all struggling. I guess holidays make it worse - but keeping morale up is really a daily battle.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

8. yes, very challenging. My mom is 74 and this past year

her declining physical health has really become an issue and has excerbated (sp) the narcissim. Thanks and you have my sympathy.

[NRaleighLiberal]

9. Right back at you, friend! It is a really tough time....

It seems like yesterday when we had a full family. Now in the past 5 years my wife has lost her aunt, uncle, their son (their other son passed away years ago) - my wife's dad, my dad - it really hits you near the holidays when you go to write cards, or plan travel, or hosting, or buy presents - and - poof! - it is so greatly reduced.....and our two girls remain single - so we are boomers with no grandchildren and very small remaining families....

Thank goodness for dogs and cats! They add so much joy to our lives!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

11. also, I can relate to your brother because, as the only daughter, I know the care-giving role will

fall to me. I am already preparing myself mentally for that day. This past year has shown me that it will be coming sooner rather than later. Thank goodness that both my brothers are supportive and we are agreed as to how things should go.

and Yay!! for furbabies

[NRaleighLiberal]

14. It is hard - he is in FL, me in NC - we've lived away from each other for many years,

our personalities are different (he is black/white, me gray), he got married and got dragged to the far right, fundamentalist religion - very difficult. Also, guilt works very well on him, not so much on me. So he was set up to be badly manipulated by my mom, and she's played him like a fiddle. Then again, he can't empathize well with what we've gone through (anorexic daughter, family issues on my wife's side, my job loss) - so we are at a very difficult impasse. I hope to see him in January when we go to FL to visit my mom.

Lots of yuck to deal with right now!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

16. makes the Holiday season challenging to say the least

I understand about the manipulation. Mother is very good at it and knows how to use money as a motivator and a guilt trip.

[EFerrari]

10. Do you remember how on "Everybody Loves Raymond", his parents were kicked out

of a retirement community? That would be Mom. I love her more than anything but she is at times impossible and if you're not careful, she can be really hurtful. This part of being her kid is every bit as hard as I thought it would be. It's hard to prepare for it, entirely.

[NRaleighLiberal]

12. My mom is cagey and clever - I suspect that she comes across very different there

than she does to her family - she certainly saves "the best" for us! Just reinforces how people tend to revert at some point - very similar to when our girls were in school - they had horrible days, and came home to take it out on us - so they could get on with things during the day (that is what we felt we were there for, after all!).

I love my mom dearly - and my brother - but what we all end up learning, I think, is that we always love our family members - but no one ever said we have to like them all the time!

[EFerrari]

13. So true!

[KarenS]

15. Yes,,,,

My Mom is 84 and has Parkinson's Disease which has progressed to the dementia stage. I go to visit her just to be with her and let her talk,,,, she listens some but really retains very little of what I say or what others say. Alot of what she says to me is a product of her imagination or from another time,,, I just listen and encourage her to talk. I have other folks in my life to listen to me and support me. The disease itself prevents the normal give and take of a relationship. Sometimes we look at old pictures, sometimes we look at pictures in a magazine, sometimes we watch old musicals. Things are different now.

I want to add to take care of yourself,,,, find some support,,,, read more about memory loss,,,, be gentle with yourself, be gentle with her. It's not easy.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

17. yes, the normal give and take of a relationship.

I mourn that I never really had that with a Mother. Basically, I raised myself and my brothers. We were provided for financially but, how to relate to people --and how to have healthy emotional adult relationships. we had to learn that on our own. It was doubly hard on us because our Father is also a narcissist. They finally divorced but, the damage had already been done.

[postatomic]

18. I don't know that this is a Mental Health issue

I worked with the elderly as a volunteer for quite awhile and I have dealt with 'difficult' parents.

It is extremely hard for the elderly to accept the failings of old age. Extremely hard. Like one good 'friend' I had said to me; "I'm a 40 year old in a 87 year old body".

With aging parents there is the element of the children becoming the parent and the parent the child. You have to walk a fine line between 'tough love' out of the concern you have and being understanding and a 'friend' to your parent(s). If you constantly point out their age issues they will become defensive and shut you out.

When working with the elderly I would make light of certain things and even crack a few jokes. I had one good 'friend' that was constantly talking about killing himself. He had a stroke that limited his mobility and he couldn't deal with that. He would talk about using his rifle to kill himself and I would tell him that he'd probably just end shooting xxxx (the person in the apartment above him). He hated being old and immobile so I'd support his feelings... to a degree. He finally "killed" himself by stopping his meds that kept him alive.

I'd like to think that I helped him enjoy life. Up until the time he died (he was 88) he would hop in his car every morning, drive to the local park, smoke a cigar, and watch the birds.

I know what you are going through is very hard on you. I totally understand. It was on me with my parent(s) but I did find a happy medium of blending concern with friendship. I hope you can do this as well. At least try.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

19. confusion here because of your subjectline

I am addressing the issue of narcissim in conjunction with the aging process. Is narcissim not considered and Mental Health Issue?

thanks for the hug.

[Tobin S.]

20. Narcissism is a mental health issue

It's a personality disorder, I do believe. Your own mental health regarding this issue is also a concern. Not that you are sick, but you are emotionally distressed which is a mental health issue.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

21. yes, thanks.

that subjectline really confused me. I thought I was misunderstanding and that I should be posting about this in another group.

[Tobin S.]

22. You're in the right place.

[mopinko]

23. you are fine here.

and perhaps i should answer your subject line with- my kids.
or at least they think they are. getting old does really suck.

[postatomic]

31. My apologies

I had no intent on adding turmoil to your inquiry. I suppose that in the broader sense narcissism is a mental health issue but I’ve always associated it with a personality disorder that has its roots in some other conventional form of mental illness.

But, I’m not a mental health expert.

I suffer from mania/manic personality disorder. Most of the time I am a soft gentle little puppy dog. Then there are times when mania takes over. You don’t want to be around me then.

Because of what I’m being treated for when I become manic all the “alarm bells” go off. I’m told that when you are suffering from constant suicidal ideation that mania is not a good sign. But, Mania is not my problem. It is a symptom of something else that I’m still trying to understand.

I hope all that made sense. I’ve been eating Xanax like candy the last few weeks. Not thinking real clearly.
I truly hope that you and your mother can find a happy medium and strike up a healthy relationship.

[grasswire]

26. no, but I have an aging ex-spouse with Narcissistic Personality Disorder who still...

.....wreaks havoc in the family. He's a real drama queen -- loves to stir things up and rage against those who happen to be on his shit list. Studying family systems theory helped me to understand the dynamics of triangulation, which narcissists excel at!

[murielm99]

27. Yes. My mother probably has narcissistic personality disorder.

It is difficult to diagnose, and no one would ever get her to a therapist anyway. She is too perfect. But my therapist, and my brothers therapist BOTH suggested that that is her problem.

She is 83, but so ornery that she will outlive us all.

My mother loves to cause trouble within the family. My niece despises her so much that she did not tell her she was getting married, and did not invite her to the wedding. Mom has never met any of her great grandchildren, because none of her grandchildren will visit her.

I will only visit her if there are several other family members present. Three years ago, I went to see her and I was pretty sure she was going to attack me physically when my husband was in the bathroom.

My dad now has dementia. He is 86. She is mostly housebound with him, so things are getting worse. He should be in a nursing home, but she refuses to allow it. There is nothing we can do about it.

For awhile, I was having my husband listen in on all phone conversations, because her phone conversations had become so abusive. She behaved for awhile, but that is starting again.

I call my mother once a month and let her talk. If I have to ask my husband to listen, I do. Then I let her know that I have a witness, so she better not try to start arguments or call other family members and tell lies about me.

At the moment, she seems to trust my middle brother. He can talk to her, but he can't get her to make any changes, especially in regards to my father's care. She wants to care for him at home. I think she is doing a good job. It is the first time I have ever seen her behave unselfishly. Of course, she is able to let everyone know what a martyr she is, caring for her increasingly frail spouse.

Just let your mother talk. Visit her when you can. Try to figure out whom she trusts, if anyone. If you have to get her into a nursing home or assisted care program, you may need to enlist the aid of a doctor, a family member she trusts, or a mental health worker. My brother and I have been trying to get that sort of network in place, because we may need it in the near future.

Good luck.

[EFerrari]

29. If we are talkng about parents, one thing that worked for me to a degree

was learning how to be my own mother. Literally, doing things for myself that you'd normally go to a mother for. That seemed to cut down the resentment and tension somewhat, which in turn made everything else about the relationship less tense.

My mom isn't NPD but she's definitely NPDish at times and as she ages, those times are more frequent. Like just now, she called me from downtown and wanted me meet and deal with the gas delivery and set up with no notice whatsoever, the idea is to drop everything and attend to the demand of the moment. When younger and working on something that seemed important to me, I used to joke about it, "Michelangelo, come down from that ceiling. Your brother needs a baloney sandwich".

It's always seemed sad to me that my mom has so much noise going on all the time, that she'll never really know me. But realizing that also makes the rare times when she is able to focus on someone outside her sort of more precious, and I've learned to appreciate them.

[murielm99]

33. My therapist taught me coping techniques.

Also, it is important to set boundaries. There are books that help, too. One is "Children of the Self-Absorbed," by Nina W. Brown. This book has exercises and activities, too.

Another is called, "Will I Ever Be Good Enough?" I have it around here somewhere, but I can't find it at the moment. "Toxic Parents" is an older book that deserves a rereading by anyone who has problem parents.

I cried the first time I read the first two books. They explained so much about my own problems in life.

[EFerrari]

34. My mom not only didn't have good boundaries or help me get them

she seemed to experience every attempt on my part as an attack and an abandonment. My boundaries were so shot that my therapist and I had to start from nearly scratch and work on that for years. And the day they kicked in, it was just like the sensation when your optometrist clicks the right lens into his machine. It was physical, not a metaphor. I finally saw and experienced the difference between me and everything else, in my md 30s.

[targetpractice]

30. Merry Christmas, Tuesday Afternoon!

I was just looking for a place to post... My 70 y.o. mother (with malignant narcissism) just manufactured the first major crisis of Christmas.

I'm living with her temporarily and after living far for 25 years... I've just come to learn that what's wrong with her has a name... Narcissistic Personality Disorder... And, I'm dealing with the shock of it every day as her adult son. Her health is declining and that makes her nastier.

Had I known anything about NPD two years ago... I never would have made the choice to move back and help out.

I hope you find strength to distance yourself and start working on how her behavior has shaped your own behaviors. I'm still in the seething angry phase of realizing that everything I thought about my childhood was a lie.

Good luck!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

32. thanks

and Happy New Year to you!

thanks for understanding and the support.

[whathehell]

35. My parents are deceased, but I do have an aging, narcisistic sister who just "disowned" me

The last sentence of your paragraph describes my sister perfectly....

"She refuses to admit that she has any failings. She is perfect in every way and any lack of understanding must be my fault. Has to be, it is the nature of the narcissim".

She wasn't always like that, at least not as much, but a squabble over her daughter's divorce (she took her son in law's side)

seems to have taken her to the max.

She's had four husbands, divorced all but the last who is now,

in a nursing home with Alzheimers, and EVERYTHING bad that happens

is either my fault or that of her one daughter, that I hapen to be close to.

It's awful, particularly, since she's the ONLY

sibling I have, as well as the only remaining member of the immediate family,

and I do love her, despite everything...I've tried to "break" the emotional attachment, but I can't.