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discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,482 posts)
Mon Jan 7, 2013, 08:36 PM Jan 2013

Gun control, creativity and...

...good old American know-how.

As was demonstrated during the last AWB, banning a product will motivate those with a financial incentive to modify the product so as to be compliant with the letter of the law.

An analogy from mid '60s NASCAR building:
The governing body-> sets a rule mandating maximum capacities for gas tanks.
Pit crews-> before refueling during the first pits stop, use compressed air to bulge gas tanks.
The governing body-> begins measuring gas tank capacities before and after the race.
Mechanics-> run a 1" diameter gas line around the cars a few times netting a few extra gallons.

...
...
...


On it goes, the fundamentals of changing peripheral attributes of a device or system so as to meet the letter of the law devise by those with insufficient knowledge of the device or system provide a challenge for mechanical engineers.

Bravo!

54 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Gun control, creativity and... (Original Post) discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 OP
necessity is the Mutha of Invention and while the control group thinks there is no need -- Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2013 #1
We've been at this... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #3
all I know is when I beat my head against a brick wall, I get bloody -- Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2013 #5
I think it was... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #7
and All I know is when I quit banging my head against the wall I quit getting headaches! Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2013 #8
I hope... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #10
Why do you say "the control folks keep telling us"? Starboard Tack Jan 2013 #34
cool discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #35
In any contest ... holdencaufield Jan 2013 #2
This fundamental truth... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #4
Undeserved authority over others... holdencaufield Jan 2013 #6
Daniel Webster: discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #9
I KNEW I heard it before ... holdencaufield Jan 2013 #11
It's a proverb from the 17th century... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #13
what is that saying about power? power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely --- Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2013 #12
"Absolute power corrupts absolutely"... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #14
that is it, thanks. Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2013 #16
So many folks... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #18
gmta but, thinking is one thing and expression is an art form. Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2013 #20
So true. discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #22
I never have trouble understanding you -- must be doing something right. now, go get some sleep you Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2013 #28
Jetsetters... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #29
was he wearing his famous shorts? Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2013 #30
Of course he was. It was at LAX! discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #31
And unfortunately sylvi Jan 2013 #23
Alan Dershowitz: discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #24
I bet the founding fathers are spinning in their graves. Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2013 #25
A bit of wisdom which... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #17
ain't it great being a hands on person. ileus Jan 2013 #15
In the final book of the "Hitchhiker's Trilogy" holdencaufield Jan 2013 #19
The only job that... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #21
that job is taken --- thank god! Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2013 #26
I'm back to... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #27
Some hater alerted this and lost 0-6........ Logical Jan 2013 #42
Sweet holdencaufield Jan 2013 #43
What we need for this case is... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #48
I don't however... holdencaufield Jan 2013 #49
Now and then... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #50
I missed this one... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #51
Never underestimate the ability of moneygrubbers to get rich on paranoia MotherPetrie Jan 2013 #32
John Fogerty: discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #33
Ban any weapon capable of semi-automatic fire or possessing a detachable magazine, no grandfather Spryguy Jan 2013 #36
re: "Engineer around that." discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #38
That wildlife had it coming. holdencaufield Jan 2013 #39
Easy enough ... holdencaufield Jan 2013 #40
Ban Kindles now. Remmah2 Jan 2013 #44
That gun would be illegal. Spryguy Jan 2013 #52
"That gun would be illegal" holdencaufield Jan 2013 #53
what about gejohnston Jan 2013 #41
No problem kudzu22 Jan 2013 #45
Button sounds semi automatic to me. Spryguy Jan 2013 #54
We should start calling them "Barts". Clames Jan 2013 #37
"Barts" discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2013 #46
The expired AWB helped lead the the development of sub compact pistols ... spin Jan 2013 #47

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
1. necessity is the Mutha of Invention and while the control group thinks there is no need --
Mon Jan 7, 2013, 08:40 PM
Jan 2013

those that do, will.

and round and round we go.

man is, by nature, curious.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,482 posts)
3. We've been at this...
Mon Jan 7, 2013, 08:46 PM
Jan 2013

...'create a useful and effective gun law' for how long??? At least 40 years???
It seems we haven't made a good one yet because the control folks keep telling us we need a new one... and another...

What is it that Einstein said about repeating actions and expecting different results????

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
34. Why do you say "the control folks keep telling us"?
Mon Jan 7, 2013, 11:07 PM
Jan 2013

Don't you think something needs to be done to stop the senseless loss of life? I'm not sure any new law will help, but I sure as hell know something needs to be done and it'd not just the "control folks" who think that.
We go round in circles because nobody is coming up with any viable solutions. Well, almost nobody. I think I came up with a pretty darned good one.

 

holdencaufield

(2,927 posts)
2. In any contest ...
Mon Jan 7, 2013, 08:43 PM
Jan 2013

... between doers (engineers, technicians and mechanics) and looters (politicians and their minions) the long-term money will always be on the doers. All the looters can do is change the rules -- they can never stand in the way of intelligent people getting what they need.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,482 posts)
4. This fundamental truth...
Mon Jan 7, 2013, 08:48 PM
Jan 2013

...(which may be expressed in a number of ways) goes to the overall evidence that the "control" part of gun control is a myth.
What are these folks? Hard of learning?

 

holdencaufield

(2,927 posts)
6. Undeserved authority over others...
Mon Jan 7, 2013, 08:57 PM
Jan 2013

...is a powerfully addictive drug. It takes a very self-aware person to see that wielding that authority without regard to the consequences -- even if done for the "noblest of reasons" -- is a fundamental wrong.

Every evil committed in history has been instigated for what someone believed was the noblest of reasons.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,482 posts)
9. Daniel Webster:
Mon Jan 7, 2013, 09:00 PM
Jan 2013

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority...the Constitution was made to guard against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."

(emphasis is mine)

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
12. what is that saying about power? power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely ---
Mon Jan 7, 2013, 09:02 PM
Jan 2013

something along those lines, methinks

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,482 posts)
14. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely"...
Mon Jan 7, 2013, 09:06 PM
Jan 2013

...arose as part of a quotation by the expansively named and impressively hirsute John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton, first Baron Acton (1834–1902). The historian and moralist, who was otherwise known simply as Lord Acton, expressed this opinion in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton in 1887:

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,482 posts)
18. So many folks...
Mon Jan 7, 2013, 09:14 PM
Jan 2013

...usually much wiser than I, have expressed my same thoughts with such eloquence, that if it were a blade, I imagine the Earth would have been cut in two.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,482 posts)
22. So true.
Mon Jan 7, 2013, 09:22 PM
Jan 2013

Of course you'd think that being someone who writes for a living, I'd be better at it.



Perhaps I'll write better when my past 24 hours include a better ratio of hours asleep to hours flying.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
28. I never have trouble understanding you -- must be doing something right. now, go get some sleep you
Mon Jan 7, 2013, 09:32 PM
Jan 2013

Jetsetter, you

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,482 posts)
29. Jetsetters...
Mon Jan 7, 2013, 09:36 PM
Jan 2013

...fly for fun to top vacation destinations. I fly with 180 other sardines in coach via USWhere? just to go to work.

OTOH I met Richard Simmons once.

 

sylvi

(813 posts)
23. And unfortunately
Mon Jan 7, 2013, 09:23 PM
Jan 2013

And unfortunately for those rank-and-file partisans who are okay with their side having that absolute power (read: kicking down doors to collect those scary black guns), they fail to acknowledge that power may shift to a side with far more sinister intentions.

Republi-fascist plutocracy with an unarmed populace at its feet, anyone?

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,482 posts)
24. Alan Dershowitz:
Mon Jan 7, 2013, 09:25 PM
Jan 2013

"Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it’s not an individual right or that it’s too much of a public safety hazard, don’t see the danger in the big picture. They’re courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don’t like."

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,482 posts)
17. A bit of wisdom which...
Mon Jan 7, 2013, 09:11 PM
Jan 2013

...I've always thought applies to those who seek control "for the good of us all."

"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred. - Niccolo Machiavelli

 

holdencaufield

(2,927 posts)
19. In the final book of the "Hitchhiker's Trilogy"
Mon Jan 7, 2013, 09:16 PM
Jan 2013

We are told of a race of beings called the Golgafrinchans. When their planet was in danger of destruction they created three space arks to take their civilisation to safety.

The A-Ark was to contain the thinkers -- philosophers and engineers

The C-Ark was to contain the doers -- technicians and builders

The B-Ark was everyone else (consisting of TV producers*, insurance salesmen, personnel officers, security guards, management consultants, advertising executives, telephone sanitisers and -- presumably -- politicians)

The B-Ark was launched into space first and apparently was never followed by the other two and somehow Golgafrinch was never destroyed.

The B-Ark eventually crash-landed on Earth in the distant pre-human past and we are their descendants.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,482 posts)
21. The only job that...
Mon Jan 7, 2013, 09:16 PM
Jan 2013

...interests me more than being an engineer is all-being master of time, space and dimensions.

 

Logical

(22,457 posts)
42. Some hater alerted this and lost 0-6........
Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:41 AM
Jan 2013

At Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:30 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

In any contest ...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=101232

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

All politicians are looters including Dems? This gun nut is on the wrong website. Send him back to ar-15.com. Hide this post for being anti-Dem, and TOS is checked.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jan 8, 2013, 07:35 AM, and the Jury voted 0-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The gun nut meme is beyond played out. There is nothing wrong with this post. In addition, this alert borders on abuse of the system. Mods please take note.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Alerter needs to get a grip.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The notion that all politicians are corrupt is a common and nonpartisan cynicism.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Dumb alert! Just an gun bigot whining!
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

 

holdencaufield

(2,927 posts)
49. I don't however...
Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:42 PM
Jan 2013

... think it makes up for the times when I saw the most innocuous posts hidden because the jury was either unable to fathom the context or just saw the topic and decided a ban was appropriate regardless.

Juries are always a crap shoot and even the most insane juror explanation won't be hidden.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,482 posts)
50. Now and then...
Tue Jan 8, 2013, 09:17 PM
Jan 2013

...I find myself considering a most confusing and feebly worded alert on a very abstruse and possibly sarcastic to third power post. First a flip a coin on whether to ditch and be excused, leaving this to confused and annoy another, or take a guess at these layers of meanings. Should the latter be the decision, I usually flip again to decide between leave and hide. Here's the coin.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,482 posts)
51. I missed this one...
Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:20 PM
Jan 2013

...the first time I read it: "The gun nut meme is beyond played out. There is nothing wrong with this post. In addition, this alert borders on abuse of the system. Mods please take note."

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,482 posts)
33. John Fogerty:
Mon Jan 7, 2013, 10:02 PM
Jan 2013

Some folks inherit star spangled eyes,
Ooh, they send you down to war, Lord,
And when you ask them, "How much should we give?"
Ooh, they only answer More! more! more! yoh,

 

Spryguy

(120 posts)
36. Ban any weapon capable of semi-automatic fire or possessing a detachable magazine, no grandfather
Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:14 AM
Jan 2013

clause. Engineer around that.

Also, create a definition for "handgun" and ban those as well. Leaves bolt action rifles, muzzle loading rifles, and breach loading shotguns for the hunters to go murder wildlife with.

 

holdencaufield

(2,927 posts)
39. That wildlife had it coming.
Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:48 AM
Jan 2013

If it ever got the chance, a deer would kill you and everyone you love.

 

holdencaufield

(2,927 posts)
40. Easy enough ...
Tue Jan 8, 2013, 01:52 AM
Jan 2013

... this fully-automatic weapon



... can be made with off the shelf plumbing parts, a drill press and a few hand tools. The plans are on the Internet and you can order the full-scale cutting templates on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/P.-A.-Luty/e/B001KILFNM

Or, were you planning on banning drill presses as well?

 

Spryguy

(120 posts)
52. That gun would be illegal.
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 08:18 AM
Jan 2013

Even Britain has gun deaths ( a whopping 35!) But an outright ban on the weapons I described combined with registration and heavy limits on storage and use of guns would almost eliminated u.s. gun crime. And gun manufacturers would not be able to work around my limits

 

holdencaufield

(2,927 posts)
53. "That gun would be illegal"
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 05:28 PM
Jan 2013

Gee -- ya think?

You can impose all the un-Constitutional limits you want -- it will never stop anyone with a C+ average in high school shop from making all the illegal firearms -- far more deadly than what is available from the manufacturers -- they want.

Pot has been banned for nearly 80 years -- did that stop anyone who wants to smoke from doing so?

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
41. what about
Tue Jan 8, 2013, 02:09 AM
Jan 2013

falling block and trapdoor action rifles?

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/07/22/1090464799535.html

The discovery of an underground weapons factory in Melbourne producing submachine-guns fitted with silencers is a dangerous development in the context of the city's gangland war, federal Justice Minister Chris Ellison warned yesterday.

He revealed that three Owen submachine-guns and parts to make another six had been seized from a building in Melbourne's south-east.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sten#Foreign-built_variants_and_post_1945_derivatives

The Polish resistance was provided with numerous Stens of various models by the SOE and the Cichociemni. Between 1942 and 1944, approximately 11,000 Sten Mk IIs were delivered to the Armia Krajowa. Due to the simplicity of design, local production of Sten variants was started in at least 23 underground workshops in Poland. Some of them produced copies of Mark IIs, while others produced the so-called Polski Sten and KIS. The Polski Stens made in Warsaw under the command of Ryszard Białostocki were built from a number of "legal" elements made in official factories or acquired through other means. The main body of the machine pistol was made from hydraulic cylinders produced for hospital equipment. All the pistols were marked in English to disguise their origin. Stens' barrels were also used for SMGs produced in Poland under the name Błyskawica.

kudzu22

(1,273 posts)
45. No problem
Tue Jan 8, 2013, 04:45 PM
Jan 2013

Add a button to the grip that the user has to press to "reset" for the next shot. Make the magazine integral, so that it has to be removed with a tool. Now it meets your definition and is just as deadly.

 

Spryguy

(120 posts)
54. Button sounds semi automatic to me.
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:20 PM
Jan 2013

And using a tool to swap the magazin is certainly more cumbersome
Not as deadly, sorry

spin

(17,493 posts)
47. The expired AWB helped lead the the development of sub compact pistols ...
Tue Jan 8, 2013, 05:23 PM
Jan 2013

with standard magazine that had a capacity of less than 10 rounds.

While hi-capacity magazines were always available during the ban as long as they were manufactured before a certain cut off date, manufacturers were selling semi-auto pistols with magazines that held no more than 10 rounds.

Many shooters find a 15 or 17 round magazine an positive attribute of a Glock or similar pistols when compared to an older 1911 style .45 ACP pistol which usually had a standard magazine size of
7 or 8 rounds. Some manufacturers of 1911 style 45 ACP pistols started to manufacture a line of these pistols with a magazines capacity of more than 10 rounds but after the AWB such magazines sold for a high price.

(I should note that I never felt any real need to have a firearm with more than a 10 round magazine but I am somewhat of an oddity as I personally prefer revolvers over pistols for target shooting and self defense. I do own two .22 caliber target pistols with 10 round magazines which are extremely accurate and I enjoy shooting them on the range.)

So pistol manufacturers decided to develop sub compact pistols that could be easily carried by people who had carry permits. This proved to be a wise plan as pistols such as the .380 Ruger LCP which has only a six round magazine proved very popular with the concealed carry crowd. Concealing a full sized pistol is a real pain in the ass and is often very uncomfortable. Sub compact pistols such as the Ruger LCP are very easy to conceal and are excellent pocket pistols when used with a pocket holster. They are so light that you can almost forget that you are carrying them.

I feel that these fewer pistols influenced many people to get a concealed carry permit and start carrying on a regular basis.

Often foolish legislation has unintended consequences.

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