Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumYoung man shot dead by gun nut after pulling into wrong driveway
LILBURN, Ga. —
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A group of friends said they were going to pick up a girl who lived in the area to go ice skating around 10 p.m. when their GPS system sent them to the wrong home.
The friends said they pulled into the driveway and saw a man peer out the window. They said they waited in the car for a bit and then the man, Phillip Sailors, 69, came out of the home with a handgun, firing a round into the air.
“The guy came out. He went in again and he came out with a gun in his hand and he shot into the air,” 15-year-old passenger Yeson Jimenez said.
The friends said that's when they tried leaving the house, and said Sailors pointed the gun at the car and shot Rodrigo Diaz, 22, who was driving the car. An arrest warrant said Sailors had a .22-caliber pistol.
The passengers said Sailors never asked what they were doing there.
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/warrant-23-year-old-man-fatally-shot-while-driving/nT8rm/
Someone drives onto your driveway and your first reaction is to pull out a gun and shoot them in the head. All the signs of a paranoid gun nut who clutches his guns tightly as he goes to bed at night.
The fact that Rodrigo Diaz was Latino probably made Philips Sailors even more angry and ready to pull the trigger.
How long before the NRA and their right wing enablers claim Sailors was standing his ground?
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SummerSnow
(12,608 posts)Young Mr.Diaz should have had a gun himself and probably survived the ordeal. Smh.
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jpak
(41,758 posts)
mike_c
(36,281 posts)Sailor's had a reasonable fear of home invasion, right? Or is it just driveway invasion at this stage?
ileus
(15,396 posts)
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)No excuse for that one, based on the reported story.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Neither SYG or Castle Doctrine apply here. SYG only applies away from your residence, if you have a legal right to be there, and Castle Doctrine requires an illegal entry. As there was no credible threat to Sailors, it is NOT self-defense, so he is up for murder.
Gun rights people will not support Sailors, unless other information comes to light.
Schema Thing
(10,283 posts)The NRA and their ilk have created a culture that nurtures gun extremism; a climate where people clamoring for "gun rights" (which is really just shorthand for "let me have as many guns as marketeers can sell me, as cheaply as a flooded market will allow"
really ARE NOT THINKING about how dangerous guns are, especially their own.
These fuckers need to rehumanize themselves and buy a clue while doing so.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)That did not stop the gun nuts from praising George Zimmerman for the murder of Trayvon Martin however. Let's face it there are a lot of gun nuts out there who have a very broad view of what constitutes self defense.
I would hope you are right, but after the Trayvon Martin case I have become convinced that many of the people who are most obsessed with their right to self defense seem to have absolutely no clue what self defense is.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)That didn't sop the gun nuts from leaping to his defense and even giving him money. Zimmy is now a national hero to them. Also, part of my excerpt references the arrest warrant.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Zimmerman claims that Martin hit him, knocked him down, and was beating his head on the sidewalk. The police photos, taken at the station do show blood on the back of Zimmerman's head. And there is other supporting evidence. So there is room for people to believe his story. We will see what happens in the trial.
With Sailors, there isn't room for any supporting story. He stormed out of his house shooting. (Unless other information comes to light.)
iiibbb
(1,448 posts)The vast preponderance an my two shooting forums thinks it was a bad shoot and Zimmerman is an asshole
sigmasix
(794 posts)Wasnt sailors a responsible gun owner until this happened? The NRA is partially responsible for this by creating the atmosphere of fear and gun fetishism in America.
Every responsible gun owner is just one accidental discharge away from being irresponsible. seems we should be able to test people for a responsible, sane personality, and deny dangerous killing machines to extremists and irresponsible conspiracy theory mongers. We wouldnt let children play with asbestos, why should we allow childish gun fetishists to jeapordize America over thier odd little hobby? Sometimes people are so purposely ignorant that the only thing to be done is to force them to accept the truth in place of thier prideful ignorance and deny them the weapons they use to act-out thier fantasy killing experience.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)There aren't enough psych testers in the country to be able to do that. Further, no psychiatrist would want to take a chance on approving anybody as the liability exposure would be too severe. The test everybody proposal is just a total gun ban in a poor disguise.
iiibbb
(1,448 posts)A bad shoot is a bad shoot.
This guy is a murderer and should serve serious time. I don't think you'll see rational gun rights people backing this guy.
mike_c
(36,281 posts)"Rational gun rights people" created the gun violence juggernaut. They maintain the falsehood that their rationality somehow prevents tragedies like this when instead it creates an environment of fear, maintains access to guns for "irrational gun rights people," and keeps civil society forever balanced on the edge of sudden violence. The only solution to this plague of gun violence is to take YOUR guns away. It's the "rational gun owners" who keep the country awash in firearms. It's the "rational gun owners" who constantly cite their paranoia and fear as justification for "self defense," and thus set up killings like this one. "Rational gun owners" have blood all over their hands.
iiibbb
(1,448 posts)and the events in my life that resulted in my gun ownership... my fault.
mike_c
(36,281 posts)I don't give a rat's ass what events in your life make you think you need firearms to be safe. Your firearms are a danger to the rest of us. Your ownership of them is part of this country's worst problems, and needs to be stopped before we can solve those problems.
iiibbb
(1,448 posts)Your position is adversarial and as deluded as those who'd defend this guy. You're not in a majority, so I don't care about your thesis
mike_c
(36,281 posts)Just another paranoid gun nut, living in permanent fear.
iiibbb
(1,448 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)We have guns.
FunkyLeprechaun
(2,383 posts)Self defense?
From what? That's what I'd like to know. What's out there that scares you so much?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Most of them have nothing at all to do with self-defense. A couple do. I carry, just like my wife, my mother, my brother, my in-laws, most of my friends, several of my co-workers, etc.
Your question suggests to me you've never been a victim of a violent crime? I have. It's not 'fear' any more than I have flood insurance because I 'fear' floods. It's not 'fear' so much as a pragmatic 'this could happen to me, and I could employ some fairly cheap and effective contingency for that'.
It boils down to preservation of human life, for me. Human life is very precious, and cannot be replaced. I carry for the same reasons I spend so much time and effort on CPR, First Aid, CERT, S&R, disaster preparedness, you name it. Life safety is paramount for me, and that covers all categories from accident, to disaster, even hostile intent.
Edit: For clarity, my comment above was intentionally hyperbolic in response to that poster's tunnel-vision 'fear' rhetoric.
FunkyLeprechaun
(2,383 posts)While I was fortunate not to have seen the carnage of omagh (which happened an hour away) everyone, including myself, evacuated the town center upon hearing the news of the bomb (there was another one 2 weeks prior to the omagh bomb). We were very scared at the time.
My mom is a survivor of violent crime. She survived the biggest IRA bombing day, Bloody Friday. She saw bodies being shoveled up.
And yet none of us own guns. I return to northern Ireland all the time, my parents have bought a house there. I actually feel much safer in northern Ireland than in the US.
We are friends with people who survived violent crime and we know they don't carry guns.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I don't have a problem with that. However, given that experience, I'm confused why you would ask me the question 'what is out there to be scared of?'. Sounds like you have seen the worst the world has to offer.
You and I have chosen different contingency plans. I completely respect yours. If all goes as I hope, neither of us will ever have any problems at all. Nor can I guarantee that my choice in contingency plan will protect me where yours won't or vice versa.
I hope that you don't feel my contingency is a danger to you or people you care about. I go to great lengths to ensure access to my firearms is VERY restricted. I also have standing instructions with my family, in the case that something like dementia slips in as I get older. They know precisely how many firearms to collect from me, in that case.
Sadly I cannot, of course, guarantee that all or even most firearm owners take the responsibility as seriously.
FunkyLeprechaun
(2,383 posts)You don't seem to respect others' right to being safe in public. When you choose to carry a gun places you go, you increase the chance of using that gun to shoot an innocent bystander.
iiibbb
(1,448 posts)The person described in OP has no respect, the person above might be very respectful.
In one article I read there was at least one concealed carry person at the Aurora shooting who did not draw because of all of the people and lack of a position to shoot.
More than half the permit holders I know wouldn't draw unless someone was firing at them or a family member.
You can't just lump people together... We'll you can... but it is not productive.
I only carried in wilderness when I was permitted. I could legally carry in the city, but in my city it's a burden. That's when I was victimized and waited well over an hour to see a sheriff, and there are feral dogs where I hunt.
I only say this to show that people make reasonable and responsible choices.
If crossfire is you concern the police should disarm as well
FunkyLeprechaun
(2,383 posts)The police are disarmed.
iiibbb
(1,448 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)First off, you said the UK, which is inaccurate. Northern Ireland police carry firearms. However, if I narrow the scope of that to England, Scotland, or Wales, it is still inaccurate. Today, approximately 7% of the police officers in London are armed, and there are patrolling Armed Response Units available to any officer in need at any hour of any day.
FunkyLeprechaun
(2,383 posts)Are allowed to carry firearms. Most forces don't carry.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Now, that aside, what is the point of comparing England's police to private citizens in the US?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)LOTS. I run alongside the road. Every time a car passes me, are they disrespecting my right to be safe in public? Because you know, the POTENTIAL for them to hit me exists.
Of course not. They have every right to use the road, in public, as I do. Same for carrying a firearm. I am licensed, trained, and in about 9 years of doing so, zero problems. In fact, the number of bystanders shot by CPL holders in a situation that warranted deadly force is so small nationwide, it's not even statistically measurable. I'm aware of two such cases in the last year, nationwide, and one of them was just a shitty, fucked up situation in which the CPL holder was not charged with anything. (Gas station attendant fatality) (Not sure about the other case, liability wise, but the bystander that was shot wasn't killed.)
Being that I take so many various steps to prepare for situations (entirely unrelated to self defense) in which another person's life might be at risk, so that I might be of some help, I consider your 'you don't seem to respect' comment highly disingenuous.
Response to mike_c (Reply #12)
Post removed
auburngrad82
(5,029 posts)Once he's convicted of a felony for killing the guy. No more guns for life. Poetic justice, I'd say.
iiibbb
(1,448 posts)Why is it with every push for a band sales spike? Probably people making hasty decisions just so they can be grandfathered in.
Gun Control fails to see their role in proliferation of arms. I am in NY, and my response to their new law is to sell 3, and buy 3. That's 3 more guns out there in response to a gun control laws just so I can be compliant.
Maybe one of my old guns winds up in the hands of a mad man... where otherwise I would have changed nothing.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Many a time I have advised people who have firearms on proper LEGAL application of force. I've even asked two people never to carry in my home again, one to never handle a firearm in my presence again, and a couple people to review their thoughts on proper use of their CPL's with a self-defense attorney that specializes in self defense, because otherwise, there was a good chance they might A) hurt someone and B) go to jail.
When I see people acting irrationally, stupidly, misinformed, or otherwise I speak up. Do it all the time.
Once upon a time, we taught real gun safety in schools. Hell, my high school used to have a rifle team. Not anymore. Quell surprise there are so many people out there that don't understand how to properly handle a firearm, and don't understand the legal ramifications of using lethal force in self defense.
Many a flippant attitude I have shit ALL OVER for people who think self defense with deadly force is a piece of cake. It's expensive. It's painful. It changes you, and you can never take it back. It's a cold reality most people don't understand.
So you can take your 'blood all over your hands' nonsense and peddle it elsewhere. The vast majority of people on this board that have and use firearms are not the sort of people you are thinking of when you say that.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)too dangerous for you to want to be around.
And this is supposed to make us feel good how?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Irresponsibility abounds. Do something about it, when you see it.
I do.
it comes in all shapes and sizes, and the concept has little to do with firearms, specifically.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)just pointing out you're just confirming peoples fears and encouraging tighter regulation.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)So, ok.
Your comment does not logically follow mine, however.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)They just lost. Sorry alerter, the jury let this stand. Ohhh I haz a sad for the alerter. NOT!
jeepnstein
(2,631 posts)Rushing to judgment usually results in poor judgment. I have no problem with Sailors going to prison for life if he did what the news story alleges. As long as he is in jail there is plenty of time to sort this out.
As far as him being a gun nut, well, he used a .22. That's not exactly the weapon of choice for the well-armed set.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Interesting. Thanks for that information.
jeepnstein
(2,631 posts)with a pistol grip for firing from the hip. I'll bet it didn't even have the shoulder thing that goes up to give it more thrusts per squeeze. You know, that scary looking stuff that they show on TV?
