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Sat Jan 11, 2014, 06:53 PM

"Guns on Campus: A Chilling Effect" by Kenneth M. Mash (NEA, Thought & Action)

--- Snip ---

In Keyishian v. Board of Regents of the University of the State of New York (1967), the U.S. Supreme Court asserted that the college “classroom is peculiarly the ‘marketplace of ideas,’” and it has pointed to the necessity of training leaders to consider a variety of perspectives.[sup]1[/sup] The common expectation of the college experience is one where faculty will challenge students’ beliefs and students will challenge each other. We expect that engaging tough conversations about deeply held beliefs can result in intellectual growth. But this is the type of activity that often also results in emotional responses and high tempers. Successfully navigating these stormy waters can be a challenge, and not everyone allows those conversations and challenges to take place because of the risks. Throw in the possibility that some-one is armed with a deadly weapon, and one might reasonably ask whether it is worth the potential risk to themselves or to other students.

Creating a true marketplace of ideas free from offensive language, as any professor can attest, is a challenge. There are even disagreements about the conditions that will best lead to an atmosphere that is conducive to open and honest discussion. Whatever our perspectives, there can be no doubt that, at minimum, there should not be any fear on the part of the students or faculty that they could be subject to violence or the threat of violence brought about by the use of a deadly weapon. Many have written on the overall topic of safety with regard to allowing guns on college campuses. However, not much has been said about how allowing the possession of deadly weapons can create a “chilling effect” on academic discussions. The Supreme Court has frequently used the notion of a “chilling effect” to strike down laws that potentially punish speech and that potentially keep people from expressing their views out of fear that they will have to litigate to protect their free speech rights. To the degree that allowing people to carry weapons on campus stifles open discussion, limits the marketplace of ideas, and hinders training students about engaging difficult ideas that challenge their core values, it also creates a “chilling effect.”

--- Snip ---

http://www.nea.org/assets/docs/HE/TA2013Mash.pdf

http://www.nea.org/home/1821.htm

Prof. Mash argues that allowing legal CCW on campus would create fear and stifle discussion, but I think the argument is based on erroneous assumptions about how CCW holders behave. If students would be inspired to whip out a gun during a heated academic discussion, why are CCW holders not doing that as a matter of course in other arenas? By the same token, almost every student in the classroom is armed with a fist - and the psychological barrier to throwing a punch has got to be lower than pulling a trigger - yet classroom discussion sessions rarely seem to escalate into brawls...

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Reply "Guns on Campus: A Chilling Effect" by Kenneth M. Mash (NEA, Thought & Action) (Original post)
petronius Jan 2014 OP
Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #1
petronius Jan 2014 #2
Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #17
petronius Jan 2014 #23
Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #29
petronius Jan 2014 #36
Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #42
gejohnston Jan 2014 #4
Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #18
gejohnston Jan 2014 #21
krispos42 Jan 2014 #28
Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #30
oldhippie Jan 2014 #31
Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #33
oldhippie Jan 2014 #34
Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #37
oldhippie Jan 2014 #39
Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #40
oldhippie Jan 2014 #41
Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #43
Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #44
Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #45
krispos42 Jan 2014 #35
Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #38
Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #46
Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #49
Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #50
Straw Man Jan 2014 #51
Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #53
Straw Man Jan 2014 #54
pscot Jan 2014 #3
gejohnston Jan 2014 #5
pscot Jan 2014 #6
Duckhunter935 Jan 2014 #7
pscot Jan 2014 #10
gejohnston Jan 2014 #11
pscot Jan 2014 #12
gejohnston Jan 2014 #13
Straw Man Jan 2014 #14
clffrdjk Jan 2014 #8
Duckhunter935 Jan 2014 #9
Jenoch Jan 2014 #15
DonP Jan 2014 #19
Jenoch Jan 2014 #22
oneshooter Jan 2014 #25
Jenoch Jan 2014 #26
Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #47
Jenoch Jan 2014 #16
ManiacJoe Jan 2014 #20
Bazinga Jan 2014 #24
krispos42 Jan 2014 #27
DonP Jan 2014 #32
HockeyMom Jan 2014 #52
DonP Jan 2014 #55
HockeyMom Jan 2014 #56
DonP Jan 2014 #57
HockeyMom Jan 2014 #58
DonP Jan 2014 #59
Bazinga Jan 2014 #60
Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #48

Response to petronius (Original post)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 07:17 PM

1. So, based on your argument, guns in class make it a safer environment for learning and discussion?

Sounds like a form of Russian Roulette to me. The more the fearmongers peddle the notion that CC is normal and healthy behavior, the more will engage in the behavior. As the numbers increase, the probability of shootings increases. Because something doesn't happen often yet, doesn't mean it won't happen at all in the future. College kids have enough stress in their lives without being surrounded by guns or thinking that guns are going to solve their problems. Thousands of young lives are squandered each year by politicians who send them to die in foreign military ventures. Now you want to start culling them in the classroom too. Is that really what you think freedom is about?

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #1)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 07:28 PM

2. My argument is that there is no compelling reason to treat university spaces

any differently than we treat non-university public spaces...

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Response to petronius (Reply #2)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 08:30 PM

17. In principle, I agree with you

Problem is, all kinds of crazy shit is permitted in other public places, including lots of activities not conducive to a learning environment. Carrying a firearm is not conducive to any kind of peaceful public gathering. It is incendiary behavior in an environment where there is a presumption of safety and protection from the problems of the outside world. Schools are traditionally sanctuaries, dedicated to study, research and enlightenment.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #17)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 10:44 PM

23. I don't agree that there is anything incendiary or disruptive about a

properly-carried concealed firearm, no more than any other personal item that someone may have in their clothing or possessions. On a campus, the people who would be allowed to carry are the exact same who are qualified to carry elsewhere - if they pose no meaningful hazard elsewhere there's no reason to think they'd change in the classroom. And it's difficult to see how a concealed (private) item could pose any distraction to others...

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Response to petronius (Reply #23)

Sun Jan 12, 2014, 10:08 AM

29. Really? You don;t see it?

Because these guns are hidden, that makes it OK? What convoluted logic. It's not the concealed private firearm that causes a distraction, but the knowledge that some freaks with hidden guns may be in the classroom because that kind of behavior is allowed and even encouraged.
What the hell does"qualified" to carry elsewhere mean? They have a piece of paper saying it's OK, like in Texas, where it's about as easy as getting a library card.

Let the school administration decide what's best for the school and you send your kids to one where they can be armed, if that's what makes them feel safer.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #29)

Sun Jan 12, 2014, 08:13 PM

36. Not convoluted at all - as I said in the OP, concerns about CCW on campus

seem to be based on unsupported assumptions about how CCW holders behave in public as well as some misapprehensions about what the university environment is really like. What's convoluted is the idea that a purely private act would be a distraction, when that hypothetical distraction isn't occurring anywhere else that the private act is allowed. I base my logic on the following points:
  • People are already carrying in other places without causing a disruption or having a chilling effect, and there's no reason that would be different on campus.
  • The students who would have the ability to carry on campus are already on campus (albeit leaving their firearms behind). They're apparently not creating a chilling violent ruckus now, so why would they suddenly start to if allowed to carry?
  • As stressful as college may be, classroom discussions are not generally violent events - if students aren't throwing chairs and punches now, why expect that they'd throw bullets?
  • Students who hypothetically would be discomfited by the possible presence of a CCWer are likely already around CCWers off-campus, yet that knowledge does not seem to cause any disruption off-campus.
All of these points suggest to me that there is no real reason to treat campuses differently than anywhere else in the matter of CCW permittees. If it's allowed elsewhere without a problem, it should be allowed on campus. As far as I can tell, the argument against campus-carry (and CCW in general) boils down to a matter of personal opinion. It's fine to think that CCW is distasteful or worse - but that dislike doesn't and shouldn't carry any weight in how the law limits or restricts the choices of others.

"Qualified" means 'eligible; conforming to predefined criteria; meeting a relevant standard.' I've given my opinion elsewhere, but I think CCW should be shall-issue with a comprehensive (i.e. non-trivial) training requirement. It should not be a 'library card,' and those with the legal privilege to carry in public should in fact meet a reasonable standard. A qualification, in other words, that would be just as applicable on campus as off. (And while I'm not a Texan, what I've read about that state's system makes me think you might be underestimating the requirements there.)

I should make clear that I'm referring to public schools here. Private school administrators should be allowed to set whatever rules they want in this regard, but public universities should remain as aligned as possible with the rest of the public sphere. Absent a compelling reason to treat campuses differently - which does not exist in this case, beyond some unfounded fears - the campus should allow individuals to make their own choice in the matter (in accordance with state/federal laws)...

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Response to petronius (Reply #36)

Mon Jan 13, 2014, 11:23 AM

42. I appreciate your thoughtful reply

You make some good points, especially regarding it's a personal opinion. That said, my opinion remains, the administration of the school, be it private or public, should make the rules regarding campus safety. Not some pols in the state legislature.
For me, it's about the purpose of school, which is learning and scholarship. The school may be publicly funded, but the classroom is not a public environment. It should be a protected environment, where all are equally protected and none are a potential threat to others. Kinda like on a commercial airliner.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #1)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 07:36 PM

4. No but makes for a safer environment for going across campus in the middle of the night.

There are no walls or fences around campuses. There is certainly bleed over from nearby neighborhoods. Unfortunately, campus security is often third rate and and sexist faux liberal politicians offer young women nonsense "tell them you have VD" or "urinate on yourself" like it was the 1940s. Of course there is always the 1970s Handgun Control Incorporated (Brady Campaign's former name) suggestion of not resisting.'

Sounds like a form of Russian Roulette to me. The more the fearmongers peddle the notion that CC is normal and healthy behavior, the more will engage in the behavior. As the numbers increase, the probability of shootings increases. Because something doesn't happen often yet, doesn't mean it won't happen at all in the future.
Fear mongers or realists? Meanwhile, it is healthy or at least not unhealthy.

College kids have enough stress in their lives without being surrounded by guns or thinking that guns are going to solve their problems. Thousands of young lives are squandered each year by politicians who send them to die in foreign military ventures. Now you want to start culling them in the classroom too. Is that really what you think freedom is about?
Everybody has stress. I doubt they will think "guns will solve their problems" but will solve more than self urination. Personally, I'm agnostic on the subject. That said, I'm still waiting for a logical, rational, and valid argument against it. Since Florida, like most states, requires one to be 21 to get a CCW, there will be no kids carrying. It does not change rules on possession and storage in dorms, frat houses are off campus. All of the doom and gloom fear-mongers have been proven wrong in every state and country. There is no valid argument against it. Even the Detroit police chief and INTERPOL's secretary general has seen the light.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #4)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 08:47 PM

18. I always love it when men use female vulnerability to justify carrying guns around.

If that were truly the case, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it, but it isn't. I seriously doubt that more than a handful of female college students have CCW permits, or even own handguns. I have 2 daughters who have attended colleges throughout the US. I've asked them and many of their friends, including one from Virginia Tech who was there on that fateful day, about this issue. None are in favor of CC in general, or guns on campus.
All graduated with excellent grades, without being raped or living in fear.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #18)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 08:57 PM

21. mostly because they are buying guns in greater numbers

and more likely to carry, at least where I'm from. I knew several women who illegally carried pistols, mace (only law enforcement could by mace), etc. in Wyoming in the 1970s. First offense was an $800 fine. Women are also more likely to buy handguns for protection instead of sport (although people who begin hunting as adults are tend to be women.)

I seriously doubt that more than a handful of female college students have CCW permits, or even own handguns.
Due to the law or choice? see earlier post.
I have 2 daughters who have attended colleges throughout the US. I've asked them and many of their friends, including one from Virginia Tech who was there on that fateful day, about this issue.
I take it none of them were locked inside the building while the campus police stood outside and did absolute nothing other than count the gun shots for over an hour. Question is, would the writer of the article volunteer to be in the building with the students unarmed?

None are in favor of CC in general, or guns on campus.
All graduated with excellent grades, without being raped or living in fear.
They are free to chose for themselves, they don't have the right to chose for others. Being prepared is not the same as "living in fear". I'm still waiting for a logical and rational reason why it should not be allowed.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #1)

Sun Jan 12, 2014, 07:47 AM

28. Trying to convince everybody who carried concealed that they have a mental defect...

...and that their behavior is abnormal and unhealthy and in need of fixing. I'm sure that will be helpful.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #28)

Sun Jan 12, 2014, 10:16 AM

30. Not a mental defect, but a behavioral disorder. And not everyone.

I think some people are probably justified in carrying at certain times and in certain places, but a classroom is not one of them.

If you feel your life is in danger by attending college, then you might want to look into some other options.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #30)

Sun Jan 12, 2014, 11:49 AM

31. I think I will decide .....

 

I think some people are probably justified in carrying at certain times and in certain places, but a classroom is not one of them.


... what those certain times and places are, not you.

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Response to oldhippie (Reply #31)

Sun Jan 12, 2014, 03:34 PM

33. Did I say I would decide? I thought not.

However, if you decide guns are not allowed in your house, I will respect that. Same with smoking or cussing.

School admins should decide how to run their campuses and you get to choose which school to attend.

I completely agree that the individual should always decide the time and place and how they will behave, but the individual should also be prepared for the consequences of their actions.

I don't like rules either, but when in Rome...
It's about respect for institutional rules (like'em or not) and public safety. The students are not responsible for campus safety.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #33)

Sun Jan 12, 2014, 04:29 PM

34. You decided that a classroom .....

 

I think some people are probably justified in carrying at certain times and in certain places, but a classroom is not one of them.


... was not a place justified to carry. "Is not ...." is a declarative. Requires a decision, is, or is not.

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Response to oldhippie (Reply #34)

Sun Jan 12, 2014, 08:15 PM

37. Prefaced by "I think"

meaning that is my opinion. I do not pretend to be a university administrator or to make decisions for them. I just express my opinion.
My decision, if I were in charge, would be not to allow guns in class, along with a lot of other things.
You would not be welcome in my home if you were carrying a firearm either.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #37)

Sun Jan 12, 2014, 09:53 PM

39. Uh, a decision is an opinion

 

I see we will get nowhere here.

I don't think you would like my home, either. There are firearms all over the place. They won't all fit in the safe. In fact, I am never more than 30 feet or so from a loaded firearm. Scary, huh?

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Response to oldhippie (Reply #39)

Sun Jan 12, 2014, 09:59 PM

40. If it's not scary for you, then it isn't for me.

Just not a place I am interested in visiting. You don't sound like much of a hippie, though, surrounded by loaded firearms, but each to his own. Stay safe.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #40)

Sun Jan 12, 2014, 10:12 PM

41. The hippie time was a long time ago ......

 

I was a child of the 50's and 60's. Then I went to college and joined the Army. Spent 40 years with the military.

I grew up (though sometimes I wish I hadn't.)

You know, now that you make me think about it, after spending 40 years with the military, the last 30 of which was in weapons test and evaluation, it's not really surprising that I am not afraid of weapons. I spent many years with a loaded firearm within arms reach. I have slept with a sack of claymore mines as a pillow. I worked with armed rockets and missiles, and ran laps around the 24 launch tubes in the USS Alaska, loaded with Trident missiles with MIRVed nuclear warheads. Is it any wonder that I don't have any innate fear of weapons?

I hope you are safe also.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #40)

Tue Jan 14, 2014, 12:56 AM

43. Virtually every hippy I knew/know had a gun or knew how to use one.

 

Hippiedom was not Jesus hair, beads, bell-bottoms, incense and buckskin duds from central casting.

Hell, Bob Dylan is a collector.

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #43)

Tue Jan 14, 2014, 10:15 AM

44. Right. LOL

You get funnier all the time,

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #44)

Tue Jan 14, 2014, 10:57 AM

45. The world is a big place; almost as big as your mind.

 

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #30)

Sun Jan 12, 2014, 05:18 PM

35. The problem with "certain times and in certain places"

is that you don't know when or where those certain times and places will be until they happen.


I think you see carrying on campus different from me in terms of cause.

I get the feeling that you perceive that a student wakes up and says "I might need my gun in case there's a mass shooting during Brit Lit or Stats; I'd better pack my gun".

I perceive it as a person saying "I'm going out into the world today. Like I do every day, I'm going to bring my gun with me", and that person's trip taking them to, among other places, the classroom.


Of course, some people might have other thoughts... thoughts about crazy ex boyfriends or girlfriends of theirs, or of their current sweetie. Or those tough-looking guys that trailed behind last time classes were attended.

People don't like being told that preparing for their personal safety is a "behavioral disorder". Your statement about being in danger while attending college extends beyond guns into pretty much anything else you carry for self-defense. If I were to carry a can of police-grade pepper spray while wandering about campus, is that a behavioral disorder?

How about a knife? How about a taser? How about a stun gun? Or a club?

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #35)

Sun Jan 12, 2014, 08:29 PM

38. Depends on the individual and threat assessment.

Obviously, if you are a cop involved in a SWAT operation, a gun is a sensible thing to carry. If you are a female, who feels vulnerable at certain times or in certain places, and your life dictates that you must be in those places, then carrying a pepper spray or other protective device makes sense. But a gun only makes sense in the most extreme of cases, where credible threats have been received. Knives are a bad idea too.
Carrying any weapon that can be lethally used against you is a really bad idea. Especially if you are weaker than your attacker.
Far better to be smarter and use other tools, like alarms, cellphones/cameras, pepper sprays and other non-lethal devices.

When individuals reach the point that they feel the need to routinely carry, then they have essentially given up and accepted the failure of the society they live in. In essence, they've accepted and embraced anarchy.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 16, 2014, 09:57 AM

46. Won't make a difference. This prof is speculating

 

which is fine, but the practice is done in pool halls, restaurants, and feed lots. I don't think a course on modern leftist political theory is going to result in a shoot-out, bit that's my speculation in a bath tub.

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #46)

Thu Jan 16, 2014, 12:39 PM

49. You equate classrooms with pool halls, restaurants and feed lots?

Boggles the mind. Speculating in a bathtub, hmmm! Just when I thought I'd heard it all.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #49)

Thu Jan 16, 2014, 01:16 PM

50. But wait! There's more!

 

I think I said you can find speculation (like the prof's) in those venues. But true, sometimes it occurs in classrooms.

Dubtext: Everyone has a speculation.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #49)

Thu Jan 16, 2014, 01:28 PM

51. Absolutely.

You equate classrooms with pool halls, restaurants and feed lots?

I do. They are all places where people meet, talk, and sometimes argue. The standards of civilized interaction apply everywhere. If one can carry in those places, one should be able to carry in the classroom. But I already know how you feel about the first part of that proposition.

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Response to Straw Man (Reply #51)

Thu Jan 16, 2014, 01:50 PM

53. Of course, I think it ridiculous to carry in any of those places.

But a classroom especially. A classroom is not a place of social gathering, it is a sanctuary for learning, not a forum for solving personal differences. College classes usually include students who are not old enought to carry a firearm. Why should they be subjected to an environment where others may be carrying concealed weapons.

The only way I could conceivably endorse CC in a class would be if the entire class was on board with the idea. For a school, it should be the entire school, students, faculty and staff.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #53)

Thu Jan 16, 2014, 02:04 PM

54. I know that you do.

Now you have to make a compelling argument that a classroom is categorically different from anywhere else.

College classes usually include students who are not old enought to carry a firearm. Why should they be subjected to an environment where others may be carrying concealed weapons.

They are subjected to one every time they venture into public. What's your point?

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Response to petronius (Original post)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 07:30 PM

3. CC puts innocent bystanders at risk

If someone's packing, I want to know it so I can leave the area.

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Response to pscot (Reply #3)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 07:38 PM

5. How so?

I agree it puts armed robbers and rapists at risk, but how does innocent bystanders?

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #5)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 07:48 PM

6. People with guns are a danger to themselves and everyone around them.

I don't want to be in a bar or restaurant or a theater, much less a classroom with armed would-be vigilantes. I don't want my kids on a campus that allows cc. Like the song says, 'just give fair warning any time you come around, with a gun'.

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Response to pscot (Reply #6)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 07:50 PM

7. depending on where you are

 

They are probably already around you more than you think. I would rather have a law abiding CCW holder that has been through training and background checks then others that would carry if that option was not available.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #7)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 07:53 PM

10. Now why don't I find that reassuring?

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Response to pscot (Reply #6)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 07:57 PM

11. do you understand the definition of vigilante?

Vigilantism is going out looking for someone after the fact. Defending yourself from a violent attacker is not vigilantism. Self defense is a natural and human right.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #11)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 08:04 PM

12. Read your history, dude

The vigilance committees were pro-active. But that's besides the point. A vigilante is someone who takes the law into his own hands or is prepared to do so. In my estimation that pretty much defines anyone who carries a hidden gun.

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Response to pscot (Reply #12)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 08:11 PM

13. I know history quite well.

The vigilance committees were pro-active. But that's besides the point.
which is exactly what I said. Self defense is reactive.
A vigilante is someone who takes the law into his own hands or is prepared to do so. In my estimation that pretty much defines anyone who carries a hidden gun.
how about someone who has pepper spray? Resists criminal attack? Are you saying defending yourself should be criminalized?

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Response to pscot (Reply #12)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 08:13 PM

14. Read your dictionary, dude.

vig·i·lan·te noun \ˌvi-jə-ˈlan-tē\
: a person who is not a police officer but who tries to catch and punish criminals

: a member of a volunteer committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily (as when the processes of law are viewed as inadequate); broadly : a self-appointed doer of justice

Not a person who uses force to protect himself/herself. That's not the same. Not at all.

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Response to pscot (Reply #3)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 07:52 PM

8. With that attitude I hope you don't live in NYC

 

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Response to clffrdjk (Reply #8)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 07:53 PM

9. Or LA

 

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Response to pscot (Reply #3)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 08:24 PM

15. Did you forget what the CC stands for?

 

How can you leave an area because simeone has a concealed weapon when you would be unaware of the weapon?

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #15)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 08:55 PM

19. "Gun Chi", we've had a few folks here who claimed they could "just tell"

 

One of them has been banned, ... but still insists on posting pictures from his family album of his relatives all in camo in other forums.

He claims he can just tell from a distance anyone carrying concealed and has suggested they be confronted aggressively and their gun taken from them and the police called.

Yep, the gun control people are full of intelligent insights and ideas.

Perhaps one of them could post a slew of examples where a permit holder shot up a college?

But they still seem to prefer a "gun free" college campus, like Virginia Tech or Northern Illinois, both the gun free zones they demand for higher learning.

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Response to DonP (Reply #19)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 10:08 PM

22. "One of them has been banned, ..."

 

Was that the one who claimed proficiency in throwing cans of beans?

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #22)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 11:29 PM

25. It is the same one who claimed a bicycle tire was a acceptable defensive item.

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Response to oneshooter (Reply #25)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 11:51 PM

26. I enjoy a good debate, but that one

 

has so much prejudice against gun owners, I never make an attempt to engage him.

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Response to DonP (Reply #19)

Thu Jan 16, 2014, 10:01 AM

47. There's gotta be an app for that.

 

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Response to petronius (Original post)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 08:26 PM

16. I had both a shotgun and a rifle in my college dorm room,

 

but only during hunting season. I don't recall there being a policy against it. Of course this was before CCW was a factor.

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Response to petronius (Original post)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 08:56 PM

20. I agree with your hypothosis on Mash's erroneous assumptions.

Petronius:
Prof. Mash argues that allowing legal CCW on campus would create fear and stifle discussion, but I think the argument is based on erroneous assumptions about how CCW holders behave. If students would be inspired to whip out a gun during a heated academic discussion, why are CCW holders not doing that as a matter of course in other arenas? By the same token, almost every student in the classroom is armed with a fist - and the psychological barrier to throwing a punch has got to be lower than pulling a trigger - yet classroom discussion sessions rarely seem to escalate into brawls...

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Response to petronius (Original post)

Sat Jan 11, 2014, 11:08 PM

24. Very well said.

I particularly liked this line;

By the same token, almost every student in the classroom is armed with a fist - and the psychological barrier to throwing a punch has got to be lower than pulling a trigger - yet classroom discussion sessions rarely seem to escalate into brawls.


I have been a college student for a long time, and will be for a long time more, so this aspect of armed self-defense discussion is particularly important to me. It is my opinion that gun-free policies on college campuses are a solution in search of a problem.

In general, my concern is this, if a school policy prevents a student or faculty member from arming themselves with effective means to resist violence, who becomes responsible for the protection of that student/faculty member? And if they fail in that responsibility, are they to be held liable?

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Response to petronius (Original post)

Sun Jan 12, 2014, 07:41 AM

27. In my experience...

...college classrooms are not hotbeds of violent physical confrontation in general. The assumption that students would move directly from verbal disagreement to drawing a firearm seems pulled from thin air to satisfy either an erroneous preconception or a political agenda.



Of course, I'm in the proletarian world of the undergraduate. Perhaps things are different when you get into the 3000 and 4000 level classes.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #27)

Sun Jan 12, 2014, 02:06 PM

32. Why do they discount Virginia Tech and NIU?

 

The gun control "fans" have had the "gun free campus" they claim we need, but it has done nothing to stop deranged shooters. Every time a shooting occurs on a college campus they demand it again.

Another triumph of hope over experience? Or just dim witted agenda that can't learn from experience?

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Response to DonP (Reply #32)

Thu Jan 16, 2014, 01:46 PM

52. Alcohol Free Dorms

The college where my daughter went had those. She switched dorms because she didn't like her roomies loud drinking. If they were over 21, did they have the right to drink? If she didn't like drinking, did she have a right not to be around it?

Will these colleges have Gun Free Dorms for those students who don't want to live with a roomie with a gun? I know my daughter wouldn't want a roomie with a gun because she is now an adult and has flat told told her father that he cannot bring a gun into her home. Does she have that right? Why shouldn't a college student be able to say the same?

Only gun owners have rights?

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #52)

Thu Jan 16, 2014, 02:27 PM

55. Try to pay attention to the subject under discussion

 

NIU and Virginia Tech were already the totally safe and Gun Free campuses you so desire to exist.

The students were all killed in gun free dorms/gun free classrooms.

Now, if you can point out instances of shootings in Colorado, Washington State or other schools that allow the 21+ year old's to carry on campus, the same way they do everywhere else, now that would be a relevant and valid comparison. I'm not sure what your daughter's college drinking or non-drinking experiences have to do with it?

I'm sure that you'll have no problem finding multiple shootings on campus from those evil guns you and your tea-totalling daughter hate so much.

And no, you actually don't have a right to "feel" a certain way. But perhaps I missed that in civics class.

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Response to DonP (Reply #55)

Thu Jan 16, 2014, 03:00 PM

56. Not "feel" but BE and LIVE around guns

You are avoiding my question. You have no right to demand to NOT have guns in your home, which a dorm room is? This is what you are actually saying. A person does not have the right to prevent guns in their home. I cannot tell someone carrying a gun that they cannot come into my home with that? PRIVATE PROPERTY. Yes, I have a right to "feel" that way.

In case you don't know, I am the wife of a gunner. I can demand that his guns are locked up in combination safe, away from me, and that I will not go anywhere with him when he is carrying. No right to do that? It is MY home too, just as my daughters and their spouses have the right to set rules on guns in their homes.



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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #56)

Thu Jan 16, 2014, 04:15 PM

57. So, you know a lot of 21+ year olds that still live in dorms huh?

 

Funny, my experience is that most students that age live in either on-campus or off campus apartments. Perhaps your experience is different.

Can you share some statistics with us of how many that is at the average University, and spare us the "My Husband's evil guns bashing lecture" that you seem to insist on delivering with every thread here. Nobody cares.

Now those examples of adults in dorms and all those CCW campus shootings? Or was that all hot air and your "feelings" again?

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Response to DonP (Reply #57)

Thu Jan 16, 2014, 07:54 PM

58. You start college at 18

Assuming it takes 4 year to graduate, that puts one at 22. So, who is going give a lease an apartment to an 18, 19, or 20 year old who is a Minor with no income? That lease they sign would be INVALID. Or maybe they just live with Mommy and Daddy all 4 years? Then they would keep their GUNS at home, and not in a dorm?

You make no sense at all. Reality bites, doesn't it? Gunners can have family who are anti-gun. Fact of life. Probably more than you realize.

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #58)

Thu Jan 16, 2014, 11:14 PM

59. You really don't know Jack Shit about this do you?

 

I make no sense at all? Maybe because I actually know what the laws are and you obviously think you can make them up as you go along, like most gun control "fans".

You can't get a concealed carry permit until you're 21, so the 18 and 19 years old you seem so concerned about aren't allowed to carry concealed guns in the first place.

Wanna try again, this time with the lights on?

Yes we all know that gun owners can have abysmally ignorant family members that don't know what the fuck they are talking about and sound dumber every time they open their pie hole. My sister is one of them too.

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #52)

Fri Jan 17, 2014, 07:39 AM

60. There's a BIG difference between...

"You can't have guns in MY home" and "you can't have guns in YOUR home."

I have never once seen it argued that gun owners should be allowed to carry weapons into other people's private residence or business. If you want to make my disarmament a condition of coming into your home, by all means you have every right to do so, and always will. If you want to make that a condition for doing business with you, or for matriculation to your private university you have that right to (I went to a private university in Utah that did just that, even though state law allowed CC on all public university campuses). You shouldn't have the right to deny me those things based on my skin color, religious affiliation, or sexual orientation, but last I checked "armed" was not a protected class (there's a pun in there somewhere, but I just can't quite tease it out).

However, you and your daughter have no right to decide what someone else keeps in their home or dorm room.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if you have given up on this thread after DonP's comments. I imagine that your disagreements with your husband are a source of friction, if not pain, and to use that to insult you is completely uncalled for.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #27)

Thu Jan 16, 2014, 10:11 AM

48. My experience at UF (C.'70): Upper division courses met in the Rathskeller.

 

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