Another DGU

[sarisataka]

(Sorry for the length)

So there I was...
I made an emergency run with my 9yro to Walgreens for TP and chocolate- our house was out of both of these critical items. It was after dark so we drove, though typically would have walked.

While exiting my girl did her usual stop at the Red Box to check out the new videos; I noticed a man entering the far end of the parking lot carrying a plastic bag and walking unsteadily. She didn't find any must-see title so we headed towards the truck.

The man changed his direction 45 degrees towards us. Unusual since we were parked away from the door. At that point I handed the bag of chocolate to my little one and told her to get in front- rare treat for her- and lock the door. I am almost to the truck and in between the gentleman and my daughter but he is closer than I like.

I ask loudly “Can I help you” when he is close to 20' away. He stops while I take a couple more steps to keep distance.

He replies “Gimme thirty dollars”, no please or other nicety about it.

This is not good IMO, “Excuse me”. At the same time I step another pace away. Shift the large TP package to cover my right hip and my hand slides my shirt to uncover my pistol.

He repeats “Gimme thirty dollars” now sounding angry. My impression is he is drunk and/or high. I am looking around to see if anyone else, goo, bad or other in near. The only people are rather far and I would have to circle the entire vehicle to reach my door.

I answer loudly, trying to attract attention “I don't have money”. As retreat is unwise we enter a staring contest. At least a couple folks are starting to pay attention but they are out of his line of sight so not immediately helpful.

I do not know if he is evaluating me or just trying to form a coherent thought- “Gimme money”

I tell him “You want to be leaving now.” To this point he has not seen that I am armed as I have kept the TP blocking his view, but my hand is free at mine side. He considers me for a moment the turns away with some curses.


Aftermath- I take my daughter home and call 911 while returning to the store. They tell me he came in but left right away. I find a follow him, while talking to 911, keeping two blocks away. I assure them I have absolutely no desire to confront or detain him. In about 5 minute a patrol car arrives and I head home.

The man ends up being booked on possession and weapon charges since he had meth and a large knife. The DA elects to not press robbery charges based on our encounter as he did not display the knife or attempt any force. It gets classed as aggressive pan handling. A plea deal has him serving 5 years on the possession and other outstanding charges.


So why do I consider this a DGU? Well, I don't. The only ones who knew I was armed were myself and my daughter. With awareness and action I was able to keep a tactical distance between us. The TP allowed me to conceal my weapon while keeping it ready and also would have provided some defense if he had a knife (as I later learned he did). In the end, the gun was a non-factor.
What would I have done differently if unarmed? Nothing. I would still have kept him at a distance and faced with a choice between unwise retreat and standing, I would have still stood. Without a gun I would still have attempted to locate, but not approach and let PD handle him.

I would like to think I am not atypical of most carriers.
-Being armed did not embolden me, though I do not deny it did provide a comfort having a good means of defense.
-I had no desire to commit murder from the gun urging me on as some maintain; though I would have had a decent self defense claim.
-Why did I have a gun on a run to the corner store? Because I always carry, wherever legal. To paraphrase, Crime Happens
-Why not show the gun? Outside of the issue of brandishing, which would make me the bad guy, my read it would as easily escalate the situation as encourage him to back off

So I am I making a tall manure pile? Believe what you want- the Walgreens is located at 1180 Arcade St, St Paul, MN; the Pioneer Press website has a city crime map http://stpaulcrime.twincities.com/. There is nothing listed at Walgreens as no charges were filed but you can find a possession on the 800 block of Cook Ave, in June 2013.

[spin]

1. It sounds to me like you handled the situation well. ...

I also notice you practice situational awareness.

Had you had a cell phone glued to your ear, the man might have tried to take you off guard. The fact that you were alert and unafraid might have discouraged the guy.

The man did walk up and appraise you. Had you showed signs of excessive nervousness or fear, he might have drawn his knife to intimidate you into giving him your wallet. Fortunately you were prepared and confident. Your calm statements, "I don't have any money" and "You need to leave now" probably caused him to suspect you had some marital arts training or were legally carrying a weapon. He wisely decided to walk away.

I agree that your concealed handgun played no significant role in the encounter but it probably did give you a degree of confidence that if the man had attacked you, you would have had a good means to stop his attack.

In Florida, had you drawn your weapon in the situation, you could have definitely been charged with brandishing by an overzealous prosecutor. It has been argued in Florida that if you draw your weapon and do not fire it, you really were not in fear for your life. This may change in the future as Florida is considering changing the law to allow displaying a weapon to stop a crime or even to fire warning shots. It is true that often merely showing you are armed will stop an attack. I question the wisdom of allowing warning shots but also realize that often a violent attack stops when the attacker realizes the victim is armed.

The text of the bill under consideration can be viewed at:
http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Documents/loaddoc.aspx?FileName=_h0089c1.docx&DocumentType=Bill&BillNumber=0089&Session=2014

[sarisataka]

4. SA is the most important part, IMO

try to see trouble before it finds you.
I suppose I could have gone back into the store as soon as I saw the man but running everytime you see a person who seems a little 'off' is, to me, paranoid.

My belief is if you draw, the decision to shoot has been made. Circumstances may abort that action before the shot is fired but it has already reached the level of using lethal force.

[spin]

7. I often advise those who are looking for a means of self defense but are unwilling to legally ...

carry a firearm that practicing Situational Awareness will most likely enable them to avoid 95% of attacks.

[Common Sense Party]

2. I'm surprised your gun did not leap off your hip and murder him in cold blood.

Guns kill, you know.

And you already had a package of toilet paper--it's not like you were unarmed.

Listen, if you want to reduce crime in your neighborhood, you're supposed to "hand back" your gun to the government. It's true. I read it here on DU.

[Electric Monk]

3. Were you inspired to post your story today because of this thread in GD?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024394536

Sheriff Tom McComas says Garrick Hopkins, 60, from Milton and his brother Carl Hopkins Jr., 61, from Oak Hill both died when they were shot on Lane Drive in Barboursville.

Rodney Bruce Black has been charged with two counts of 1st degree murder. Deputies say he admitted to shooting the two men because he thought they were trespassing on his property.

Sheriff McComas says the land actually belonged to Garrick Hopkins. He had just purchased it and was showing his brother where he and his family were planning to build their new home in the coming weeks.

Inside Black's home, deputies seized many weapons and ammunition.

(102 recs and counting)

[sarisataka]

5. Nope, it comes from a discussion I had

with DanTex http://www.democraticunderground.com/117294921#post61

It was too late to write up my experience last night so I posted it today. I haven't read that thread yet (119 recs and counting) but will look it over. At first blush it seems it is about a double murder. Do you see a connection?

[Electric Monk]

6. The shooter seemed to think he was defending himself, or at least his property.

[sarisataka]

8. In most cases,

I disagree with using lethal force to defend property. Rare exceptions may exist but are extremely unusual.

Lethal force is the last resort in the face of an immediate threat of bodily harm. From the article, there was no immediate threat of harm, nor was any lesser means used to deter the apparent trespassers. Assuming the situation is as described I would call it cold blooded murder.

My experience was different. I did perceive a potential risk of bodily harm however it was not immediate. I saw no weapon and have had to deal with people impaired on various substances. Force was an option and I recognized it could escalate to a lethal level but at that point in time I still had other options.

Fortunately I was able to remain at the lowest level and deter any aggression by appearing self-assured and confident. As one other poster (from the pro-control side) points out that is often sufficient to cause a criminal to look elsewhere. It is a point of agreement between us.

[ileus]

9. He knew the property had been sold...notice his excuse isn't working.

[ileus]

10. Glad things worked out well for you and your daughter.