Jerry Miculek goes over the facts about M855 Ammunition

[beevul]

Very interesting.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

1. Let me guess

Step 1 -- Declare non-lead ammunition unsafe

Step 2 -- Declare lead ammunition an environmental hazard

[Electric Monk]

2. The Rude Pundit - Gun Nuts Losing Their Goddamned Minds Over Proposed Bullet Ban

It all starts with bureaucracy, of course. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, which has "Firearms" right there in its name, regulates ammunition based on laws passed by Congress. One of those laws, the Law Enforcement Officers Protection Act of 1986, which passed 400-21 in the House and 97-1 in the Senate and was signed by God Reagan, says that any ammunition that "may be used in a handgun," is made of certain materials, like steel, and can pierce body armor can be banned. That's in the actual law. In fact, if the ATF didn't seek to ban those kinds of bullets, it would be violating the law. Pretty simple, no? Pretty cut and dried, no? If Congress doesn't like it, it can change the law.

So now there's this ammo, 5.56mm constituent projectiles of SS109 and M855 cartridges, which had been exempt from the law because they weren't used in handguns. This was the "sporting purposes" exception to the law. But now there are handguns that can fire these steel-tipped, armor-piercing bullets. The ATF is proposing banning the manufacture, sale and import of them. You can keep all the ones you have or will buy in your hording frenzy. But after that, the law says, the safety of police officers comes before your desire to hunt deer wearing bulletproof vests.

Of course, the gun-fellating right has lost its mind over this proposal because the ATF is part of the executive branch and that means the Negro communist Muslim president who hates America must want to kill all the white people and take their guns in order to burn the Constitution and install a Sharia law caliphate in the country. Or something like that.

more...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026287888

[ileus]

3. Negro communist Muslim president who hates America....remind me not to read from the RP again.

Bunch of hateful racist bastards can't make a point without insulting our president then fuck em'

[Electric Monk]

6. If that's what you got out of it I think you totally mis-read it. RP was attributing those views

to your friends on your side of this issue.

[Duckhunter935]

9. I am sure you agree with this also, right?

"Yes, the ammo is used by the AR-15 rifle, the one beloved by mass shooters and men with tiny penises (sometimes one and the same)."

I would ask you to agree or disagree but you have a serious problem answering simple questions.

You do realize that this ammo and the AR-15 are not used in most shootings and not even in most mass shootings.

[blueridge3210]

11. Hmmm.....

If I didn't know better, I'd think you were trying to converse with a "Glib, Sociopathic Gun Controller".

[Electric Monk]

14. What's that they say about imitation being the sincerest form of flattery?

[blueridge3210]

16. I'm sure you think there's a point there, somewhere......

[oneshooter]

21. There is, but if he wears a hat, you can't see it.

[blueridge3210]

22. *snort*

Well played, sir. Well played.

[DonP]

25. When you're the Chatelaine of Castle Bansalot, you have to come here for conversation

We should check and see, but I bet he posts more here than in his own forum.

After all talking to the same three true believers day after day, week after week has to get a little dull with all the frothing at the mouth down yonder. Even when 90% of the population agrees with you.

Plus, digging around for cartoons that express whatever your gun control POV is supposed to be, has to be exhausting and mentally taxing.

[Duckhunter935]

26. you are very correct

Account status: Active
Member since: Sat Sep 12, 2009, 11:24 PM
Number of posts: 11,400
Number of posts, last 90 days: 656
Favorite forum: General Discussion, 367 posts in the last 90 days (56% of total posts)
Favorite group: Gun Control & RKBA, 200 posts in the last 90 days (30% of total posts)
Last post: Fri Feb 27, 2015, 06:27 PM

and he is the host of the other group.

[GGJohn]

28. Must be a lack of intellectual challenge over there

so he has to come here for a challenging debate.

[Duckhunter935]

30. and gets his hat handed to him

[GGJohn]

31. Well, he does get something handed to him,

and it ain't his hat.

[Electric Monk]

32. Nah, I slum down here for the abuse, this subthread being a perfect example.

Have you heard the one about the sadist and the masochist? The masochist asked the sadist to hurt him, to which the sadist replied "No".

[GGJohn]

37. Yeah, sure you do,

I, like, totally believe you.

BTW, you never did explain what that picture of the late Patrick Swayze and Charlie Sheen was or meant.
Care to enlighten me?

[Duckhunter935]

38. and could not or was afraid to answer a simple question

if a law having empty shell casings was reasonable?

So much for great honest discussion.

[GGJohn]

39. Didn't really expect it.

So, instead of waiting for an explanation from him on the pic, I googled it and found it's a pic from some movie called Red Dawn, never seen it, don't plan to, but I get the feeling that he thought I believed that the US was going to be invaded by the Russians and partisan Americans would fight a guerilla war.

[Electric Monk]

42. Answered twice, just not to your satisfaction. You sure do whine about it a lot. nt

[Duckhunter935]

43. You never said yes or know

You just posted word salad.

So yes or no,
Do you think a law against having expended or empty shell casings is reasonable?

[Electric Monk]

44. You seem to have a bit problem with homophones. Are you dictating to your computer?

Here / Hear
No / Know



As to your question... again... My original inclination was leaning towards no, but seeing just how nuts it makes you and your ilk at FAUX News and the Moonie Times, I'm starting to lean yes on it instead. If you can't not (intentional double negative) have gun paraphernalia in your home, it could be a sign that you're an obsessive gun nut and potentially volatile.

[Duckhunter935]

45. using phone, pain in the ass to type lol

[Duckhunter935]

46. so you still can't just say yes or no

Just shows how reasonable your side is on gun control legislation. You would like for the RKBA side to cave in on everything and your side does not give up a thing.

So what are you willing to give up to compromise an any gun control legislation?

[Electric Monk]

40. You're asking me to believe you've never heard of the movie Red Dawn?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087985/

[GGJohn]

41. Heard of it, never watched it, nor do I plan to. eom.

[Electric Monk]

33. Best you can do is repeat old memes, while getting them backwards, apparently. Flattering.

[blueridge3210]

36. I've noticed most glib sociopaths

seem to think everything is about themselves. And that their contribution to a debate is limited to insults, slander and dumb-ass cartoons.

[NaturalHigh]

47. You sure seem to like cartoons.

[Electric Monk]

13. I love how you think I have to stand behind anything ever written or said about gunthusiasts.

Why don't you go post how much the RP hurt your guns feelings in the GD thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026287888

[beevul]

15. You sure don't seem to have any objections to standing behind racist bloomerg.

Your peeps just posted yet another thread supporting his astroturf groups over there, and suggest supporting it to others.

[Electric Monk]

17. Perfect example of what I just wrote in post #13. nt

[beevul]

18. Only if you define words fluidly which you clearly do.

You said " I love how you think I have to stand behind anything ever written or said about gunthusiasts."

You seem only too happy to stand behind anything ever written or said against gunthusiasts, since they're "deserving of nothing more than our scorn".

That being said...

There are alternatives to standing behind anything ever written or said about gunthusiasts.


A. One could do nothing.

B. One could denounce him (Bloomberg) as a racist, and support groups ran and funded by reasonable people.

C. One could embrace the astroturf groups of the racist control freak.


Which one are you guys doing in that other forum again?


You know, I couldn't help but notice you recced a thread for "everytown".

Just for "visibility" right?

[Duckhunter935]

27. be carefull

he is not willing to answer a simple yes or no question. Multiple choice is worse, might be too many choices.

[NaturalHigh]

48. I'll ask you the same thing I asked over there:

Why do pro-gun control types always make tiny penis references?

[Electric Monk]

51. Did I make such a reference? But the answer to your Q, I think, is Sigmund Freud started it.

Anyone who has been in the Army is familiar with the refrain, "This is my weapon, this is my gun. One is for killing, one is for fun." Even the military understands the relationship between firearms and genitalia.

[NaturalHigh]

53. I was in the military for six years.

I guess I must have missed that part. The line is familiar to me from "Full Metal Jacket," but I usually don't base my opinions on movies.

[Lurks Often]

54. Incorrectly citing a movie doesn't help your viewpoint much

The correct line from the movie Full Metal Jacket, which by the way is about the U.S. Marine Corps, is "this is my rifle and this is my gun" and depending on who you believe wasn't about guns and sex, but teaching recruits to use the term rifle when referring to their service weapon, as the word gun is a more generic term that can include artillery, for example when referring to the "gun laying" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laying

And yes, I've been a soldier and we never used that refrain or made any connection between firearms and sex or genitalia.

Seriously, what is it with the gun control extremists always associating firearms with sex or are they projecting their own impulses on gun owners?

[gejohnston]

4. Wrong

here are the relevant paragraphs:

&quot B) The term "armor piercing ammunition" means--

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile."

Neither the projectile nor its core are "constructed entirely" of any of those metals. The M855 core is lead and steel, not just steel. Also, the M855 isn't designed or intended for use in a handgun, its jacket is less than 25% of the weight of the projectile, and the round is a .22 caliber, not greater than .22 caliber.

The name "Rude Pundit" tells me two things about him. Rude means uncivil at best and an asshole at worst. Pundit means someone who authoritatively pontificates on subjects they know nothing about.

[Duckhunter935]

7. Yes this is a nice part of that article.

"Yes, the ammo is used by the AR-15 rifle, the one beloved by mass shooters and men with tiny penises (sometimes one and the same)."

Have to get the sexual reference in there, how childish.

[ileus]

10. kinda typical from the "we know best" 1%er types...

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

19. Maybe RP should head to a mall and begin surveying people

"Excuse me sir. Are you a mentally unstable potential mass shooter? Yes No Maybe"
- No ends the survey for the respondent not fitting the, ahem, targeted group.

- Yes or maybe continues to...
"Can you tell me if your penis could be described as 'tiny'?"
- No continues to... "Are you sure?"

- Yes continues to...
"Please describe your emotional and physical feelings about amour piercing ammunition."

Without a similar type of endeavor to collect data, I'm left thinking RP has all the veracity of...

...wait for it...


...Bellesiles.

[NaturalHigh]

49. I noted that too.

I think the gun ban crowd has a copyright on that particular tactic.

[ileus]

8. I'm sure an alphabet agency isn't worried about the technical facts.

just trying to please bloomy and his paranoid mommys.

[NaturalHigh]

50. I'm going with asshole.

That's why I never read his stuff. Even if I agree with him, I don't feel the need to wade through his bullshit.

[beevul]

12. Since when is listening to an expert "losing their mind"?

Of course, if one watches the video, one can see that the um...characterizations of the round itself...are not as simple or cut and dried as you and your chums would like everyone to believe.

[benEzra]

24. They're not steel tipped, they're not armor piercing, and they won't penetrate the lowest level

of rifle-resistant armor (NIJ Level III, which is rated to stop steel-jacketed 7.62x51mm NATO).

Armor piercing 5.56mm is M995 (tungsten core) and has been banned for years. This is just an excuse to ban ordinary ball ammo, even though it is primarily *lead* core and therefore exempt from the ban on steel-core bullets.

[beevul]

34. Gun controllers, and ATF apparently...

Gun controllers, and ATF apparently, have problems correctly understanding the definitions of the words "partially" and "entirely":

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.


In order to be lawfully banned under the law as "AP", the "projectile or projectile core" MUST be constructed entirely from one of a combination of the things listed above, and the ammo in question does not meet that qualification. In fact, it doesn't even come close.

Most people don't seem to be catching that.

[Duckhunter935]

5. Very good information

I have already written my comments on this and will keep submitting more.

[ManiacJoe]

20. As always, good stuff from Jerry!

The first 2:30 are hilarious!

[Duckhunter935]

29. yes it is nt

[sir pball]

23. Meh. I found Wolf 62 to be superior. The possible precedent does bother me though.

The specific details of this fiasco don't bug me; currently my only .223 is a lovely little Savage bolt-action tackdriver so until they put 69gr MatchKings on the table I'm indifferent. I did run some SS109 against Wolf 62 back when I also had a mini-14 and the Wolf was consistently about 1.5MOA better...I could have had a bad lot, but I'd still cheerfully give the Russians my money if I had to feed a semi.

What does worry me is the possibility of classing all 30-cal monometals as "AP" since they do technically meet the criteria (XP-100 in 308 made .30 bullets "usable in handguns&quot ; I'd have some serious problems with losing my Barnes and GS Customs.

[beevul]

35. It should.

ATF ignoring the law as it is written, is not at all a good thing, nor is it something that should be allowed or tolerated.

[quadrature]

52. how many USSenate seats, is this issue worth? ...nt

[oneshooter]

55. As many as they need , as long as they "win". n/t