Once again, the VPC hopes you are both easily frightened and poor at math

[friendly_iconoclast]

The Violence Policy Center has cranked up its evergreen moral panic
"Concealed Carry Killers"- and the gullible and doctrinaire fall for it:

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22concealed+carry+killers%22&sitesearch=democraticunderground.com

http://www.democraticunderground.com/126210658

Concealed Carry Tragedies Include Workplace Shooting, Six-Year-Old Unintentionally Killing Father.

Washington, DC — Concealed handgun permit holders are responsible for at least 873 deaths not involving self defense since 2007, including 29 mass shootings that killed 139 people, ongoing VPC research shows. Since there is no comprehensive record keeping of fatal incidents involving concealed carry permit holders, this tally most likely represents a small fraction of the actual total.

I couldn't be arsed to look for any 2014 or 2015 screeds from them, so let's
look at one from 2013:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023118413

Research Details Hundreds of Examples of Innocent Lives Lost to “Concealed Carry Killers"


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
June 27, 2013
3:18 PM
CONTACT: Violence Policy Center
Avery Palmer, 202-822-8200 x104, [e-mail]

As Zimmerman Case Begins, VPC Research Details Hundreds of Examples of Innocent Lives Lost to “Concealed Carry Killers

WASHINGTON - June 27 - Washington, DC— As the trial opens this week over the deadly shooting of Trayvon Martin, research shows that similar fatal incidents are shockingly common. The Violence Policy Center has uncovered hundreds of examples of non-self defense incidents involving private citizens legally allowed to carry concealed handguns. These incidents resulted in 516 deaths — including 24 mass shootings and the killing of 14 law enforcement officers.

Doing the math, and according to the VPC, concealed carriers are responsible for 357
deaths over the last three years, or 119 a year.
Lets stipulate, for the sake of this argument, that all of those deaths were murders
even if they were not.

Now comes the part where the wheels fall off the panic mongering.

The lowest estimate I can find for the number of concealed handgun permit holders
in the US is 11.1 million- other figures cited were a high of 12.8 million but
I'll stick with the low one. Taking that number, and using the numbers given by the
VPC, we see that 119/11100000 = a murder rate of 0.93 per 100,000 permit
holders, a rate about one-fifth of the US population as a whole

Source for US murder rate:

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-1

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/preliminary-semiannual-uniform-crime-report-januaryjune-2015/tables/table-3

Worse for the controllers, these numbers mean that those 'concealed carry killers'
kill at a lower rate than does the populations of the UK, France,
Australia (where have I heard that name recenly?), Ireland, Canada...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

http://rboatright.blogspot.com/2013/03/comparing-england-or-uk-murder-rates.html


and at par with Norway and Sweden

[Gman]

1. Your average concealed and/or open carry person

Is a pretty stupid piece of work. When the NRA figures out how to keep guns out of those hands we'll all be better off.

[friendly_iconoclast]

2. Do you have something non-tangental to say about the OP?

If so, we'd love to hear it...

[Gman]

5. The OP attempts to debunk VPC's numbers and argument

What I state is the bottom line and it actually fits well as a root cause with what the VPC says.

[friendly_iconoclast]

7. The VPC's 'argument' is mere fear-mongering not supported by fact

If you can show us why the public at large should fear a group of people that are
demonstrably less likely to kill them than the average person, please do so.

Your feelings about concealed carriers are irrelevant to the subject at hand.

[DonP]

8. Read it again ... slooowly. No debunking is involved

Debunking would indicate the OP was trying to prove the VPC wrong with it's claimed numbers.

The OP accepts all of the VPC numbers as is, with no argument.

They then compare it to the factual number of concealed carriers in the country. That's not debunking, it's what we call "Math".

So ... are gun control fans just really bad at basic math, far too aroused at the idea of "Gunz!!!" that they can't use a calculator, or just plain stupid?

Pick one.

[Gman]

9. No but you'd be surprised

I know several concealed/open carry people that are real dumbasses.

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

11. You don't know me.

[Gman]

15. That's a good thing then

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

16. Why?

Are you afraid of people you have never met, who have never done anything to hurt anyone?

Certainly never done anything to hurt you specifically?

[Gman]

17. Well, my statement was

"I know several concealed/open carry people that are real dumbasses."

You said I don't know you.

Therefore you could not be included in the group of people I say I know above, and therefore you are not a dumbass, which is a good thing.

Sorry to be cryptic in my response. I thought you'd get what I was saying, as I really thought that's what you meant by "you don't know me."

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

18. Thank you.

I take the responsibility of carrying a sidearm as seriously as raising my children, serving my country as a soldier, and educating youth as a teacher.

It is a grave responsibility, one which could change several lives in an instant.

There are dumbasses in this world, yes.

However, as a statistical group, those civilians who carry a sidearm in self defense are among the most law abiding persons in society.

Every rule has it's exception, however.

[DonP]

14. Then there are all those "Mayors Against Illegal Guns" pedophiles too.

Last edited Wed May 18, 2016, 10:02 PM - Edit history (1)

Not to mention the ones serving time for fraud, bribery, DWI, counterfeiting, domestic violence, carrying a weapon without a permit and miscellaneous other crimes. It got so bad Bloomberg had to close it down for 2 years and find new mayors out of the joint.

A much higher percentage of crooked, criminal Gun Control supporting mayors than Concealed Carry permit holders.

But you don't see us suggesting that's a normal trait among gun control supporters, do you?

All kinds of evil stupid people out there, aren't there? Some own guns and some are gun control fans.

Some even have computers but still don't know jack shit about the issue, just what their tiny little world view, cartoons and bumper stickers teach them.

But most of them are just cheap and lazy, never doing anything in the real world to support their so called "beliefs" besides posting occasional snark online.

That's probably why in two decades not one major gun control measure has passed and there's still no real grass roots gun control movement, just a whole lot of online whining.

[ileus]

22. What makes them dumbasses?

Last edited Thu May 19, 2016, 01:59 PM - Edit history (1)

9-5 job?

Owning a pickup truck?

Do they not mow their lawn? Have tattoos? Attend church?

Or is it just owning a firearm that makes them dumb???

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

24. They don't do what I do.

That makes them dumbasses.

They don't have the values I have.

That makes them nutjobs.

[Gman]

25. I do all of the above except the

Tattoo but including owning guns. Just general idiots. Basic high school education. No problem with that. But don't try to tell em any fm different when they don't know what they're talking about.

[Press Virginia]

26. Anecdotal

[TeddyR]

30. So you take the few "dumbasses" you know

And extrapolate that all concealed/open carry people are "dumbasses"? That sounds a lot like stereotyping.

[beevul]

3. This is of course, your opinion...

Your average concealed and/or open carry person...Is a pretty stupid piece of work.

This is of course, your opinion, based on nothing substantial, other than your bias.

[friendly_iconoclast]

6. Opinion which didn't actually address anything in the OP

[JonathanRackham]

10. Can you define average?

[Press Virginia]

27. Evidently he hangs out with a bunch of dumbasses who have guns but

can't seem to actually kill anyone with them.

Or something

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

13. "When the NRA figures out how to keep guns out of those hands"

Huh?

[Eleanors38]

23. Yeah, that stuck out for me as well...

For some peculiar reason controllers call upon the organization they most demonize to carry the political slop bucket for a pet measure; in this case, restricting the rights of those who meet some quotient for "dumbness." I have run into this curious phenomenon before.

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

12. "examples of non-self defense incidents involving private citizens"

What numbers is the VPC using (other than pulling them from an orifice) to write the article?

"Non self defense" as defined by whom/using what criteria?

Who declared then non-self defense shootings? The cops? The courts? The VPC? My grandmother?

Were they accidents?

How many were actually indicted for homicide/manslaughter?

Very fuzzy math.

What non-science majors used to pass physics lab: "the fudge factor."

The VPC article is so vapid as to be nothing more than a waste of paper/electrons.

[jmg257]

19. 9 years of data...less then 100 deaths a year, including suicides...

"Concealed handgun permit holders are responsible for at least 873 deaths not involving self defense since 2007, including 29 mass shootings that killed 139 people, ongoing VPC research shows.
...
In the vast majority of the 684 incidents documented in Concealed Carry Killers (585, or 86 percent), the concealed carry permit holder either committed suicide (293), has already been convicted (222), perpetrated a murder-suicide (53), or was killed in the incident (17). Of the 74 cases currently pending, the vast majority (64) of concealed carry killers have been charged with criminal homicide, four were deemed incompetent to stand trial, and six incidents are still under investigation. An additional 25 incidents were fatal unintentional shootings involving the gun of the concealed handgun permit holder."

http://www.vpc.org/press/latest-concealed-carry-tragedies-include-workplace-shooting-six-year-old-unintentionally-killing-father/


Once incident in DC was about a Texas permit holder who killed 13 with a shotgun at a Navy Yard in DC.

" Alexis purchased his Remington 870 shotgun and two boxes of shells from Sharpshooters Small Arms Range in Newington, Virginia just two days before the shooting. Alexis had a concealed carry permit from Texas and had previously held one issued in the state of Washington."

[friendly_iconoclast]

20. Even using VPC's cooked numbers, their header doesn't match reality

That's why I used them

[ileus]

21. They know their audience well.

[jimmy the one]

28. robbing peter to pay paul, ccw wise

f icon: according VPC, concealed carriers are responsible for 357 deaths over the last three years, or 119 a year.

what VPC said, specifying legality: Violence Policy Center has uncovered hundreds of examples of non-self defense incidents involving private citizens legally allowed to carry concealed handguns.

icon: ..concealed handgun permit holders in the US is {approx} 11.1 million .. we see that 119/11100000 = a murder rate of 0.93 per 100,000 permit holders, a rate about one-fifth of the US population as a whole

Since you are referring to legal ccw carriers using a firearm to kill, you need compare with firearm related homicide in the US as a whole, shouldn't you? so it's about 0.93/3.43 (2014) or 0.93/3.61 if accidental, or about 1 in 4, not 1 in 5.
Unless of course, which may be, vpc includes ccw killers not using a firearm, in which case your 1 in 5 is valid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

icon: Doing the math, and according to the VPC, concealed carriers are responsible for 357 deaths over the last three years, or 119 a year.

Pls explain where you get the figure 357, I'm not following you on that.

icon: we see that 119/11100000 = a murder rate of 0.93 per 100,000 permit holders, a rate about one-fifth of the US population as a whole

Your blunder this time, icon, is that you are including the criminal element in your figures, & comparing that to LEGAL gun owners. The US population as a whole is not criminal. You are essentially saying that legal ccwr's commit murder at 20% the rate of legal gun owners plus criminals.
If half those murders are done by criminals from the git go, you need exclude them, & the proper comparison is ccwr's to murders committed by legal gun owners at the time of crime. Otherwise you are comparing legal ccw gun owners to criminals, & of course criminals would be worse offenders, but what's the point? one side is good guys with gun, other bad guys with gun. I would hope it would be 1 for every 25 or 100, not just 1 in 5.
You need compare homicide by legal ccw'rs to firearm homicide by legal 'gun owners', or compare to overall homicide by everyone, both when including & excluding the criminal element.
Rough estimate would be 1.7 per 100k done by legal beagles, so your comparison of 0.93 ccwr's with legal gun owners is about 60%, better, but what does that say about gun owners not ccw'g? You're robbing gun toting peter to pay gun toting paul.

I think the better comparison is legal ccw homicide rate to non gun owner homicide rate, go fetch.

icon: Now comes the part where the wheels fall off the panic mongering.

The wheels didn't fall off the vpc locomotive; it's more like your train, icon, doesn't really have an engine.

[friendly_iconoclast]

29. Did you have something germane you wanted to add? I'm sure we'd all love to see it.

[TeddyR]

31. Your post

Is literally indecipherable. Please summarize for those less intelligent.