Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumNYT Editorial: Republicans pander to NRA while Dems silent
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/14/opinion/republicans-and-the-gun-lobby.html?_r=1&ref=opinionPretty much spot on, if (as usual) understated...
President Obama has regrettably been avoiding the gun control issue. Still, Mr. Romney attacked him at the convention on Friday, promising to stand with the N.R.A. for the rights of hunters and sportsmen and those seeking to protect their homes and their families. This was a far cry from Mr. Romneys 1994 campaign for the United States Senate when he assured centrist Massachusetts voters: I dont line up with the N.R.A. Yet there he was in St. Louis, lining up. Newt Gingrich, in his over-the-top manner, urged a United Nations campaign to proclaim the Second Amendment a human right for every person on the planet.
The convention, in its celebration of American values, has drawn tens of thousands of members to see genuflecting Republicans and to browse a seven-acre commercial mart of guns and shooting paraphernalia, much of it designed for the battlefields of war, not the home front.
Notably absent are top Democratic politicians, who seem to have concluded that, despite thousands of constituents shot or killed each year, it is best to go silent about gun control.
shadowrider
(4,941 posts)According to many in this group, you simply can't be a Democrat and pander to the NRA. Pandering to the NRA makes you a right-wing, Tea Party member.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)Which is it?
Dems should pander to the NRA or they should not?
Are the majority of NRA members right wing nuts or tea baggers?
Are you a NRA member?
AH1Apache
(502 posts)and take away this wedge issue from the repukes. I am an NRA member and a proud one at that, that doesn't make me a right wing nut or a tea bagger. I'm working from the inside to change it, what are you doing except sitting behind your keyboard and constantly whinning about it?
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)....because all we really need is one more thing to indistinguish Democrats from Republicans.
By the way, I'm spending no more time behind a key board than you and your whining is .....well.....pronounced.
I agree the wedge should be between Dems and Republicans and not between each other.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Why are you proud to a member of such an organization?
shadowrider
(4,941 posts)Pander to the NRA, no. Get rid of gun control as a party platform, yes.
The majority of NRA members are interested in gun rights. I don't ask for, nor do I care which party they're affiliated with.
Yes
Does that satisfy you?
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)Tell me.....how many Republicans and how many Democrats did the NRA endorse for Congress last year?
How many Republicans are on their Board and how many are Dems?
How much money did the NRA spend on Republican races and how much on Democratic races?
Heck, regardless of your position on guns, an argument can be made they have done far more damage to the Democratic party than anything Dems have done to gun owners.\\
krispos42
(49,445 posts)How about the Dems realize that the NRA is more correct on the facts (as opposed to the rhetoric and propaganda) than the various anti-gun groups? Should Democrats be against something merely and soley because the NRA is for it? What's the opposite of pandering, in that case?
How about the Dems stop being against something merely because a particular organization called the National Rifle Association has taken a position for something?
In other words, how about Dems stop treating the NRA like the Republicans treat Obama?
AH1Apache
(502 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Democrats.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)Not that your side does any better, but the NRA's side is a lot more widely disseminated.
Simo 1939_1940
(768 posts)negative consequence of dishonesty on the gun restriction issue!
Voters justifiably say to themselves:
"They've lied about 'assault weapons', the threat of plastic guns/cop killer bullets, effectiveness of microstamping, etc., etc., etc. --- WHAT ELSE have they lied about?"
Mr. Coyote submitted the construction blueprint for an impenetrable henhouse to a group of fellow coyotes for peer review. Upon receiving glowing reviews for his design by his peers, he proceeded with the project.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)bravo....and well said.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)You Go Ahead and Dispute the Democratic Position. I agree with it.
That's why I am a member of Democratic Underground.
Why do you continue to support an organization that has given so much money to defeat Democrats?
How are we doing on that super majority and is the NRA helping or hurting?
krispos42
(49,445 posts)Just like I dispute the Democratic Party position on free-trade agreements.
And I've never given a dime to the NRA, but considering that the Democrats knowingly and deliberately assume positions that guarantee conflict with the NRA, I don't see why anybody is surprised the NRA supports the Repubes.
I don't know why you expect the NRA to NOT fight Democrats. It's a path that the DNC has chosen. They know the consequences and reprocussions. Just like they know that by being pro-choice, they'll draw the wrath of the anti-abortionists and the conservative evangelical Christians. Or by being pro-union they'll draw the wrath of corporate America. Etc., etc., etc.
The political parties know who they'll attract support from and who they'll attract opposition whenever they stake out a position. The NRA's job is to promote gun owners' rights and needs. The DNC has decided to promote general public safety by diminishing gun owners' rights and needs.
lastlib
(23,272 posts)YES
Their guns are more precious to them than the lives of those who died by guns. When will the insanity end?
Simo 1939_1940
(768 posts)isn't supported by the facts.
safeinOhio
(32,714 posts)Facts?
Simo 1939_1940
(768 posts)A good part of the reason that police deaths are up is because there are fewer of them as cities cut back their forces. Beyond that, if guns were actually the problem w/regard to officer deaths you'd see a steady upward trend which would correspond to some degree with the upward trend in gun purchases. But you don't.
safeinOhio
(32,714 posts)I don't think one can correlate more guns to cops deaths anymore than more guns correlate to lower crime. Feakeconomics correlates lower crime rates with higher abortions in the 80's. Fewer unwanted babies to grow up deranged criminals.
AH1Apache
(502 posts)My rights are more precious to me than your rhetoric and I will never concede those rights to you or anyone else.
safeinOhio
(32,714 posts)You might want to re-read post #19.
Poster did not say you, or all, only most.
Don't be so easy to anger, being a gun rights supporter we must show an even temper and being slow to anger. Otherwise, anti-gun people will fear you as an armed, easily angered person, which is what they fear the most. Perhaps you might even agree with me, that along with gun safety and CCW laws, CCW classes need to spend an hour or two on anger management.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)....Democratic Party.
sarisataka
(18,755 posts)Dems should not pander to the NRA but they have gone from opposing to ignoring, for the most part.
The GOP has given them a blank check... Who would you support if you were NRA?
They do tend to vote more than the non-gun owning Americans and the is a hot button issue to them
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)How many NRA board members are Dems compared to Republicans?
How much did they spend to elect GOP candidates compared to Democrats?
Screw their position on guns......are they helping or hurting the Democratic party?
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)You may claim to be a Democrat and even vote Democrat, but that doesn't make you a liberal, progressive Democrat. You may just be ignorant or deluded, but yes, you are correct, if you "pander to the NRA" you are supporting a right wing organization which is against Obama and against liberal progressive principles.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Sorry, feel free to put your application in, we'll call you when a spot opens up. No, really, we'll call you.
In other words, who are you to decide what constitutes a 'liberal progressive Democrat'??
Empowering people, letting them make their own choices- those were things that I consider to be core principles of our party.
TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts)Joined at the buttocks.
mazzarro
(3,450 posts)Then I ask why is it that any nation should not be armed with whatever the nation wants? Nations are made up of individuals who according to NRA have the right to be armed with whatever they want. All nations should have the right as well to buy/build whatever each nation wants or need. No more WMD canard or Iran/North Korea nuclear weapons hysteria.
AH1Apache
(502 posts)I've been an NRA member for 30+ years and I've yet to see them advocate that everyone should be armed. Could you please point out to me where thay say that. I'll wait.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)They don't lobby legislators, they don't lobby Supreme Court, they are just "good ole boys" protecting the "rights" of folks who can't venture out of their house without strapping on a gun or two.
{sarcasm thingy}
AH1Apache
(502 posts)so I'm going to give you the opportunity to be correct about something, show us, with a link, where they advocate "ANYONE" being able to own a gun, just one link is all we are asking for. We'll wait.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)just a "bunch more" is irrelevant.
You guys need to get out of your barrels so that you can see the big picture and quit being so literal. I don't think the poster you jumped on said or meant "every single person."
AH1Apache
(502 posts)Please show me a link where they say that, try as I might, I can't find that anywhere. Once again, I'll wait, and wait, and wait for an answer that I know will never come.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Based upon your 145 posts, that might be a stretch for you.
AH1Apache
(502 posts)now back it up with links and sources.
BTW, what does my post count have to do with anything?
Simo 1939_1940
(768 posts)........transparent and desperate tactic by the logically & factually disadvantaged.
shadowrider
(4,941 posts)your statement.
We're literal Hoyt, because we aren't mind-readers. Someone can't type something, have it taken literally, then backtrack and either say "What I meant was", or "You know what I meant".
AH1Apache
(502 posts)The usual Hoyt sidestep and B.S.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)How many NRA board members are Dems compared to Republicans?
How much did they spend to elect GOP candidates compared to Democrats?
Screw their position on guns......are they helping or hurting the Democratic party?
shadowrider
(4,941 posts)Go to the NRA homepage and find that reference please, then quote it on this thread with the appropriate link.
I'll wait.
safeinOhio
(32,714 posts)First thing there was a picture of NRA hero Glenn Beck. The live feed on the right was waiting for Ted Nugent to arrive.
go to the list of speakers at the current event, no Democrats.
NRA has become a wing of the republican party, by looking at their home page.
They do support a few democrats, but not very much. Here in Ohio the gave a little over 4 thousand dollars to the Ted Strickland effort. On the other hand they spent millions on Rob Portman. In other words they show token support not to appear too obvious. Some fall for it and tout it on every post.
shadowrider
(4,941 posts)Still waiting.
safeinOhio
(32,714 posts)did answer the question, is the NRA a right-wing republican front org?
shadowrider
(4,941 posts)If Democrats are supposed to be anti-gun, and therefore anti-NRA, they won't own guns or join that organization. If they don't join from the left, all that's left to join are those from the right. Therefore, the membership leans heavily to the right but only because good Democrats aren't supposed to be pro-gun or belong to the NRA.
Self-fulfilling.
Can you at least agree with this?
safeinOhio
(32,714 posts)or the Klan, would those groups move to the left?
Until the NRA gets out of politics and focuses on safety, marksmanship and training, there is little to no hope of it becoming anything other than what it is. We have people on this board that belong, yet I have seen no movement to the middle, only farther to the right. I'd wager that dropping out of the NRA does more(lack of $ from dues) than joining and sending in your dues.
shadowrider
(4,941 posts)They would still be focused on gun rights, same as they are right now, for everyone (far left, left, center, right, far right).
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)The only thing they are focused on right now is having the 'right' to bring your gun into a Post Office, a school, a church, a bar or a private business all in the name of 'freedom'.
BARF.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)It depends on who runs it. The GOP moved far to the right when Goldwater types took over key positions of the party, then it went from conservative to reactionary. Many of those disaffected moved to the Dems. The Theocrats got involved and attracted people who would vote Democratic on economic issues, but were cultural conservatives. Bad thing is, they got brainwashed by Rush into believing their union is the enemy of God.
Compare the Republican platform in 1956 and now.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)msongs
(67,438 posts)AH1Apache
(502 posts)I'll just add this to my list of dumbest posts ever.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)and what a great job Brownie did. Brownie was a good gun salesman himself.
rl6214
(8,142 posts)=massive increase in gun sales. 1st black president claim=huge dishonesty on your part.
Logical
(22,457 posts)rl6214
(8,142 posts)What I do want to know though, is are any of those statements attributed to Pres Obama prior to his becoming president true or are they like urban myths, statement attributed to him but he really didn't say them. I know he was very anti-gun before the election and supported the AWB and that is what still follows him around. Just like romneys anti-gun stance while gov of MA is following him around.
safeinOhio
(32,714 posts)switch support on republicans that said worse things, introduced anti-gun legislation and voted for some. John Kasich, Mitt Romney and Newt to name a few. However, the NRA will never forgive the half Irish man.
I still challenge Wayne Lapierre to a bet. If Obama is re-elected and does not destroy the 2nd Amendment, will he nominate Obama as NRA man of the year. If he does, I'll join the NRA.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)supported Strickland over Kasich. I would be happy seeing Obama being invited as a speaker at the next convention. But I'll settle for Nugent getting laryngitis and Norquest being exposed as a welfare queen.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)....would you be among the NRA members booing Obama?
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)my membership expired in 1979. Thom Hartmann has been a member longer than I have been.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)You've earned my respect today.
Thanks.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)Yes....well....at least it's with a 'liberal' group. LOL.
I suspect they give alot less to GOP candidates than the NRA and for that reason alone, you go.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)What happened?
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)Basically, I became a "tree hugging traditionalist" in exile. Besides, I could read the magazine at the public library.
Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/national-rifle-association-of-america#ixzz1s9nHlAVm
I don't see the two factions as being mutually exclusive (I think the "tree hugger traditionalist" faction would be more effective in the long term than Wayne and Ted's stupid shit. Their mouths reinforces bullshit stereotypes and do more harm than good). Hanging around with assholes like Norquest and Ollie North, pissed me off even more.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)...that's part of the NRA problem today....they've marginalized their base so much they have to go beyond guns.....how else can you explain the totally unnecessary logic to expand gun rights through legislation (with such non issue legislation to expand gun rights on school buses, schools, churches, bars, etc.) while their defacto political party seeks to demonize government for using legislation to expand the scope and authority of government.
Regardless...hug that tree....
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)National organizations on either side should STFU. The local school district or state should decide public schools.
whoever owns the rest, should decide for themselves. Still no drinking in bars, including off duty cops in cop bars.
Churches is a church/state separation issue.
Some places there is no rule simply because, there was no need. For example, there was a big deal about some guy in Casper, Wyoming, open carrying to a town meeting. When Wyoming liberalized CC in 1995, they put government meetings as no CC. The media made a big deal out of the "savage rednecks who did not have a rule." Before this guy, no one did. It is one of those "perfectly legal but nobody does." It was a nonissue before then.
rl6214
(8,142 posts)He has done nothing to erode the rights to KBA and has said he supports gun rights. I would love to see him go a little further with his explanations.
burf
(1,164 posts)but I would like for him to address the claim by Sarah Brady where he told her he was working on gun control "under the radar". Then there is the issue of what did he know about Fast and Furious and when did he know it. Ignoring these matters is not going to make them go away.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)....and all because they thought he'd take their guns.
They've created a boogey man where none exists.
fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)How many NRA board members are Dems compared to Republicans?
How much did they spend to elect GOP candidates compared to Democrats?
Screw their position on guns......are they helping or hurting the Democratic party?
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)fightthegoodfightnow
(7,042 posts)Try answering the questions....
How many NRA board members are Dems compared to Republicans?
How much did they spend to elect GOP candidates compared to Democrats?
Screw their position on guns......are they helping or hurting the Democratic party?
ToolMaker
(27 posts)Of course the Republicans are going to engage the NRA for support. The democratic party has staked out a political position that is contrary to the efforts of the NRA. Democrats, the liberal media and pretty much any left leaning voice with a public pulpit, consistently demonize the NRA and any conservative voice any time that a gun related tragedy occurs. The loudest liberal voices are often also the most ill-informed, or even outright dishonest. (Rachel Maddow, Rosie O'Donnell, etc.) Even here on this forum, in the short time that I have been here, it is pretty evident that many of those with even a slight anti-gun lean, are quick to show vehement hatred for anyone with even a slightly different viewpoint. With this in mind, why would the NRA not overwhelmingly side with conservatives? Why would the republican party not take advantage of the theory of "The enemy of my enemy, is my friend"? Gun owners, in general, are politically active. They vote. To many of them, the 2nd amendment is representative of core values that they will vote according to.
There are actually some interesting similarities between unions and the NRA. Members pay dues to gain a collective voice in pursuit of their goals. The upper ranks of both often do not reflect the views of the membership as a whole. Both engage in hyperbole and rhetoric to drum up support from members, and non-members alike. Both lobby at the state and federal level to forward their viewpoint within the political arena. Both have members that are frustrated with actions by the administrative ranks of their respective group. And I would bet that almost every member of each can find fault with some of the activities of the group as a whole.
I have to agree with other posters...the democrats are often their own worst enemy when it comes to the gun issue. The NRA has played an active role in many of the gun laws currently in place. The NRA certifies more instructors, conducts more safety training, and contributes more money to safety and education programs regarding guns, than any other organization in the world. They boast a membership in excess of 4 million. What political group would not like to add that large of an active voting segment to their ranks? If you have issue with the fact that they tend to lean more to the right, even far right, than you prefer, stop giving them reason to do so. Stop the outright assault on the 2nd amendment that so many democrats are focused on, or stop complaining when they back the other horse. What would you expect them to do?
Yes, there are some pro-gun democrats. Yes, some of them actively support the SCOTUS ruling on 2A, and the individual right to arms, including concealed carry, and personal protection. But, are they the ones that are most vocal? The ones that make strong statements expressing their viewpoint? Or, does that sound more like the democrats with an opposing viewpoint? Are peoples' views of the democrats opposition to 2nd amendment rights more because of what the NRA says, or what democrats themselves, say and do? The ball is very much in the court of the Democrats.
For those decrying the NRA for not supporting President Obama for his "pro-gun" legislative actions, bear in mind, that both of the pro-gun bills signed into law by Obama were not stand alone bills, but were minor parts of major bills that Obama very much wanted signed into law. He did not champion the pro gun segments of these laws. He simply took them for what they were, legislative concessions that were of little consequence, enabling more important legislation to proceed. He has not been pro-gun. At best, he has been fairly neutral, letting the courts decide the issue. Comments like claiming to work on the issue "under the radar", coupled with past actions are the type of things that will be long remembered in comparison to minor concessions.
It's our game to play as we see fit. If we continue on the same course as has been the standard approach of the democratic party, it is likely that we will lose support in this issue, and possibly votes at the polls as a result. Why not play smart, and quit pissing of the 800 pound gorilla in the corner? Why not work to actually be rational in the pursuit of firearms safety, rather than continuously reaching for the extremes?
One final thought, regardless of which side of the debate you find yourself, emotional, irrational actions and reactions will not make permanent gains in this debate. No amount of rhetoric, half truths, little white lies or outright dishonesty will not stand the test of time or public scrutiny. We continue such actions at the risk of our own peril.