Mexico seized 68,000 guns from US since 2006

[SecularMotion]

WASHINGTON – The government said Thursday that 68,000 guns recovered by Mexican authorities in the past five years have been traced back to the United States.

The flood of tens of thousands of weapons underscores complaints from Mexico that the U.S. is responsible for arming the drug cartels plaguing its southern neighbor. Six years of violence between warring cartels have killed more than 47,000 people in Mexico.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives released its latest data covering 2007 through 2011. According to ATF, many of the guns seized in Mexico and submitted to ATF for tracing were recovered at the scenes of cartel shootings while others were seized in raids on illegal arms caches. All the recovered weapons were suspected of being used in crimes in Mexico.

At an April 2 North American summit in Washington, Mexican President Felipe Calderon said the U.S. government has not done enough to stop the flow of assault weapons and other guns from the U.S. to Mexico.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2012/04/26/us_mexico_seized_68000_guns_from_us_since_2006/

[Common Sense Party]

1. We give them guns, they give us drugs.

What a nice, symbiotic relationship.

[SecularMotion]

2. That's straight from the NRA playbook

[gejohnston]

4. Really? I thought it was straight from

NORML play book.

[Common Sense Party]

6. What page?

[rl6214]

18. Really? What page, i'd like to see a link

Or anything at all that states something so stupid, aside from your post.

[CokeMachine]

27. When guns are invoved

there is no "Common Sense Party", "JPAK", "bongbong", or "Hoyt" just the usual -- if any of them don't agree with you it's the evil NRA. Or, someone is packing one or two something/somewhere/somehow -- I think my dog is packing something/somewhere/somehow but he is sly -- gotta keep an eye on him. Maybe it's time for the groomer to get the evil (something) off of him.

Cheers!!

[rl6214]

42. Stick around, you'll find they aren't the only ones, just some of the more vocal

with some of the more extreme views.

Welcome!

[CokeMachine]

43. Thanks for the welcome!!

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

12. A good sound business solution???

[gejohnston]

3. page not found

have better link?
so how did those guns get there?
Does that include full autos stolen from Central American armories and went through Mexico's southern border?
Does that include US made full autos and semi autos sold to the Mexican governments that "disappear"?
How many are actually "straw purchased" from the US commercial market? How many are full autos from abroad?

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20110209-mexicos-gun-supply-and-90-percent-myth

[SecularMotion]

5. I think I fixed the link

It works for me.

[gejohnston]

8. thanks, but

I'll stick to the GAO's numbers.

[Atypical Liberal]

40. Threadwinner. Well done.

I'm saving that graphic.

[Xela]

7. Stolen from Mexican military and police

I've noticed that Mexico has been omitting this important note from their reports. How convenient.

There are many reports of corrupt cops, and military turned drug soldiers. It is only logical to assume they take their wepons with them when they make the switch.

Example (in Spanish):
http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/nacion/159686.html

Incidentally, in that article they mention the M82 Barret long range sniper rifle as part of their arsenal.

Guess who has plenty of those in Mexico?

Yessiree:


Xela

[DanTex]

10. Only about 1% of the guns were legally transferred to Mexico and then stolen.

We were also able to address another matter. Some who dispute the 90 percent figure have written to us speculating that many of the weapons traced to the U.S. aren’t actually smuggled across the border. They claim these guns were provided to the Mexican military or police by the United States, and were either stolen or wound up on the wrong side of the law due to corruption. Not true, according to ATF. An agency spokeswoman, Janice Kemp, told us that between 2004 and 2008 only about 1 percent of the guns Mexican authorities asked the agency to trace were found to have been legally transferred to the government of Mexico. Further, an even smaller fraction of the guns ATF researched for Mexico were traced back to the U.S. Defense Department.

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/05/more-on-mexican-guns/

The major source of guns for the mexican cartels is the US civilian market. THe NRA crowd likes to speculate about other potential sources and other possible explanations because they don't like the fact that the lax US gun laws are responsible not only for thousands of US lives every year, but also for increasing the lethality of violence aborad. But the fact of the matter is, there is simply no evidence of guns getting into Mexico in significant numbers other than from the US market.

[gejohnston]

11. So you are saying the GAO is in the pocket of the NRA?

sorry, if anyone is speculating, it is your side. Your side is ignoring the number of machine guns in the hands of the cartels.

[Xela]

13. The puddding...

"An agency spokeswoman, Janice Kemp, told us that between 2004 and 2008 only about 1 percent of the guns Mexican authorities asked the agency to trace were found to have been legally transferred to the government of Mexico. Further, an even smaller fraction of the guns ATF researched for Mexico were traced back to the U.S. Defense Department."

I seriously doubt the Mexican authorities would want to shoot themselves in the foot and embarrass themselves by changing their standard line now.

Having said that, I don't doubt the black market in Mexico is affected by the civilian market in the US, I simply have major suspicions about the amounts they claim.

Xela

[DanTex]

15. In other words, there's no evidence supporting your speculation.

By all means, speculate away. But the hard evidence in the form of gun traces points to the US civilian markets.

Your conspiracy theory is entertaining but not remotely realistic. The people who submit guns for tracing are not some central authority, it is the local police officers that recover the guns. So there's basically no way all of those individuals would (a) be able to tell which guns they recover come from Mexican military and which don't and (b) decide to only submit the ones that don't come from Mexican military in order to cover up the amount of corruption.

[gejohnston]

16. what is the drug culture doing?

But the hard evidence in the form of gun traces points to the US civilian markets.

What hard evidence is that? Some spokesman from a corrupt, theoretically democratic, government controlled by 35 oligarchs? Regardless which side I would be on, I would need more than that.

They should have some responsibility, if not most of it. None of them would exist if it were not for their money. Why isn't there a movement for violence free certified dope? Certified violence free from source to consumer? Where are the full page ads in High Times? Not that the drug culture actually gives rat's ass, but at least they should step up, since I'm expected to step up while contributing not a fucking thing to the problem.

Really? The hard evidence supports no such claim from the civilian market.

The people who submit guns for tracing are not some central authority, it is the local police officers that recover the guns.

You know this how? Are there ATF agents at each police precinct? Do they have etrace terminals in their patrol cars?

[Callisto32]

31. It's being tried.

Certified, violence-free dope, I mean.

Unfortunately, the state won't allow it. SWAT raids, you know.

Wrecks the certification process every time.

[Straw Man]

28. And more speculation.

So there's basically no way all of those individuals would (a) be able to tell which guns they recover come from Mexican military and which don't ...

Oh, but there is. It's the ones with full-auto capability: the ones that aren't available on the US civilian market. No-brainer, really.

... and (b) decide to only submit the ones that don't come from Mexican military in order to cover up the amount of corruption.

Or in order to get some nice new toys for themselves.

[Glaug-Eldare]

9. Why would they buy from legit gun dealers? The Mexican army's right there!

Better guns, better prices, locally-sourced...sounds like an obvious choice to me. As for Mexico's own gun problem, that's a result of total prohibition on the good guys, enormous corruption in every agency at every level, enormously powerful drug cartels that function as governments... If they want help wiping out the gangs, I say give it to 'em. When they lecture us about how they can't control their own borders, so we should give up our freedoms? Piss off.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

14. OTOH...

..."There are three basic types of arms deal: white, being legal, black, being illegal, and my personal favorite color, *gray*. Sometimes I made the deal so convoluted, it was hard for *me* to work out if they were on the level." - yuri orlov

I don't actually see why guns in Mexico are a US problem.

[iverglas]

17. "I don't actually see why guns in Mexico are a US problem."

And do you characterize this as a liberal, progressive, democratic and/or Democratic position?

At least it ain't a Christian one ...

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

20. "And do you characterize this as a liberal, progressive, democratic and/or Democratic position?"

In short, no. Since I don't see that "guns in Mexico are a US problem" I don't characterize that view as liberal, progressive, right or left wing, nor Democratic nor Republican. I think issues *IN* Mexico are *Mexican* problems.

I think many things in the world today are handled the way my daughter handled the thermostat when she was 11. She would notice that the house was cold so the heat got set on 80. A bit later when it was hot she opened a window.

[iverglas]

22. "I don't characterize that view as liberal, progressive, ... left wing, nor Democratic ..."

Good.

Because neither do I.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

23. Your redaction is showing ;) n/t

[ileus]

25. You bad, bad progressive....

You're also a rotten democrat, Democrat and Progressive for your support for firearm freedoms, and lack of care for you fellow man in Mexico.

How ugly...ugly I tell you.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

26. Damn it!

I guess they'll make me listen to more speeches from Sarah Palen and George W Bush as punishment.
I've been having trouble sleeping anyway.

[ileus]

21. The only real problem is those guns belong in the US

They should stay in our citizens hands, if Mexico desires expanded firearms freedoms they need to expand gun rights there.

Keep our guns on our soil where they belong.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

24. "Keep our guns on our soil where they belong."

That's fine but it does sound like a personal problem.

[ManiacJoe]

19. Whatever the correct number may be,

it is a safe bet that the vast majority of the straw purchasers will not be prosecuted.

[GreenStormCloud]

29. Why would a drug lord pay high prices for a U.S. gun?

U.S. assault-weapons are merely semi-auto knock-offs of select-fire military guns such as the AK-47. They cost hundreds of dollars. Since the drug lords are in the smuggling business anyway they can buy genuine select-fire AK-47 in other countries for about $50 each and bring them in with the drug shipments. That is much cheaper and they get the real thing. Drug lords aren't stupid so I don't believe that they are getting the majority of their guns here.

[iverglas]

30. do you know the first thing about organized crime?

Drug lords sell drugs. Into the US. They get dollars for the drugs. They have to use the dollars for something. They have a little difficulty putting them in banks. You've heard of money laundering?

The price of the commodity they buy with the dollars is not a huge concern to them.

They are exporting to the US; acquiring commodities in the US with the money paid for their exports, or in direct trade for the exports, is a hell of a lot easier than trying to move the money around the globe.


bad typing

[Callisto32]

32. So they would buy guns?

Something made out of ferrous metal, bulky, oddly shaped, requiring large amounts of space for smuggling instead of just smuggling the CASH?

Are you suggesting it is easier to smuggle ARMS, than CASH?

Sorry, not biting on that nasty old bait.

[iverglas]

33. oh dear oh dear

And what are they going to do with the cash once it's back in Mexico? Smoke it?



Yeah, it's a whole huge lot easier to smuggle guns into Mexico from ... well, I'm not sure where you're suggesting ... than over the US border. Yes sirree bob.

[Callisto32]

46. Oh, who knows, but....

I'm sure American dollars have no value as cash anywhere but the U.S....and no foreign drug dealer would stockpile large amounts of it, since it has less value and is more difficult to smuggle than guns.

http://www.omgsoysauce.com/10432/when-a-mexican-drug-lord-gets-busted/

But, you never said that.

[friendly_iconoclast]

54. Just as I have never called any DUer a closet Red Tory...

[Starboard Tack]

49. Tunnels run both ways.

[GreenStormCloud]

36. I know that they are using full-auto in Mexico.

And they are using RPG-7s (Rocket Propelled Grenade - Model 7), hand grenades, and other stuff that can't be bought in gun shops in the U.S.

Drug lords are in the business of smuggling. They bring drugs into Mexico as a conduit to the U.S. so it is fairly easy for them to load up a bunch of crates of weaponry onto ships bound for Mexico.

In their wars with each other and the Mexican authorities the drug lords want to equip their armies with genuine select-fire assault rifles and genuine machine guns and other heavy ordnance. They won't be happy with U.S. semi-auto knock-offs when the shooting starts. They are going to want the real stuff, and you can't get that in the U.S.

[ellisonz]

55. Obviously they use American made handguns to a great extent too..

The simple rule is that they will use whatever they can get their hands on - that includes US produced civilian guns

[gejohnston]

56. what makes you think every handgun for sale in the US is made here?

No, it is hardly obvious. Most cops carry handguns made by an Austrian company named Glock. The Five-Seven is made by the Belgian company called FN. They could be making their own handguns.

[ellisonz]

57. Are they buying those guns straight from Austria and Belgium? n/t

[gejohnston]

58. not from US gun stores

besides, the average crime gun found in Mexico is 14 years old. The ATF busted executives from Norinco (Chinese) trying to sell machine guns and SAMs to street gangs in the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norinco#Controversies_in_the_United_States
Like I said, most of the handguns are probably homemade. I would not be surprised many of their weapons are.

[ellisonz]

59. Doubtful.

"Like I said, most of the handguns are probably homemade."

Good try at deflection though!

[gejohnston]

60. not at all

they are a multi billion dollar a year business, they build their own submarines. All they need is a CNC machine. There are gunsmiths in the US, Canada, and Europe that legally make custom guns in their basements or workshops.
Actually, you don't even need that. During WW2, various resistance groups made their own sub machine guns in bicycle shops. Same with the Warsaw Ghetto. Australian gangs have been caught making their own sub-machine guns. In their fight against the British, Israelis even had underground ammo factories.

Not even remotely deflection.

[GreenStormCloud]

37. Maybe a little hard to put that money into U.S. banks.

I am confident that there are foreign banks that are quite happy to take their money. Probably some of them are in Mexico itself. The purpose of money laundering is to hide it from the American IRS. Since the transactions are taking place outside the U.S., then the money doesn't need to be laundered. Moving money around the globe isn't hard to do once you have found cooperative banks.

[jeepnstein]

39. Or have legitimate buisinesses to run the money through.

The first thing I learned when hanging around with a certain elderly gentleman of Sicilian roots was the importance of having a legitimate business. In his case it was a string of restaurants. They weren't anything special but they certainly did bring in the money. Lots of money. Back in those days a cash-based business was essential for keep small-time operators out of the Al Capone Suite. Pawn shops, bars, barber shops, restaurants, or some kind of service-based cash business were the ticket.

It's just a matter of scale from there. If you're sitting on a few tons of hundred dollar bills you have to invest it somewhere. It's being invested in the "legitimate" Mexican economy. When the drug money dries up the rest of Mexico will as well.

[GreenStormCloud]

41. Only 7% of U.S. transactions are cash anymore.

The rest are online or plastic. But in the Mexican economy I doubt that money laundering is much of a problem for a gangster.

[iverglas]

51. duh, exactly

So, do the cartels take cash, or chargex?

[Callisto32]

47. Nobody would bother smuggling hundreds of tons of cash!

That's ridiculous, they would just smuggle hundreds of tons of arms!

After all, that American currency doesn't have much value in Mexico, iverglas said so!!!!1!!

[iverglas]

52. you are so very clever

After all, that American currency doesn't have much value in Mexico, iverglas said so!!!!1!!

And you wage a war with a domestic government and its law enforcement agencies with American currency by ... using it to start fires to burn down their headquarters?

... because that's about the only reaction I have to the uninformed floundering that is all I'm reading in this little conversation.

[iverglas]

44. omg, you really don't know anything, do you?

The purpose of money laundering is to hide it from the American IRS.

Sorry, but the mind just boggles.

The purpose of money-laundering is to conceal illegal activities, and the profits derived from them.

There are laws and international treaties all over the globe requiring countries to have very stringent rules about banking, to prevent organized crime from just putting the dirty money in and taking clean money back out and buying real estate or whatever the like. Banks do not accept big stacks of bills. There are reporting requirements for cash transactions. They don't comply and they're in deep shit. Hell, my local 7-11 won't even sell money orders for over $999. And the lawyers aren't going to take cash for the real estate deals or corporate takeovers, because their banks won't take it from them without raising a hue and cry.

Having too much cash is the sad side-effect of making a living from big-time crime.

There are various cash-based businesses that can easily launder smallish amounts of cash. Restaurants. The Hell's Angels have one in the little town a couple of my familiy members live in. Fancy little restaurant that nobody in town patronizes. But I'll bet they do a booming cash business, enough to launder a decent bit of the local drug trade takings. I once figured out a BBC mystery way ahead of time because as soon as I saw our potential bad guy's wife running a hair salon, I said "money laundering!" Charge 10 real customers $100 a day cash, and 50 fake customers $100 a day cash, and you have just taken in $5,000 of your dirty money. Yup, you pay tax on it, but then you can do whatever you like with it. Two-thirds of $5,000 is worth more than $5,000 you can't spend.

It isn't easy to get your head around at first. An assistant of mine was a former prosecutor from South America whose thing was money laundering. The first couple of times she told me the tale of empty trucks full of carrots crossing borders ... but eventually it comes clear.

This is hardly worthwhile for things like drug cartels. How many restaurants and hair salons would they need to be operating?

Organized crime in Canada has pot to sell to buyers in the US. But big wads of US dollars don't do them any good here. So they take cocaine, to sell in Canada, and guns, for their own use and to traffic in trade. It's the market in its old-fashioned, primitive form.

And it all has pretty much zero to do with your IRS. But hey, I'll just tiptoe away now, and you can keep dreaming that you live at the centre of the universe.

[GreenStormCloud]

45. And you can keep dreaming that all banks are honest.

In a nation with the level of corruption as Mexico it should be a simple matter for them to find a friendly banks that wants truckloads of cash. Plenty of other nations with next to no honest government oversight of their banks.

[jeepnstein]

48. Didn't Wachovia get nailed for that very thing a while ago?

The reporting requirements are pointless if the bank just doesn't report. I think they got a ticket for it or something. Maybe a sternly worded warning?

[iverglas]

50. you've heard of "follow the money"?

Seriously, you need to learn what you're talking about.

Even if a bank accepted the wads of cash, if an investigation of the depositor took place, the depositor would have no story to tell of where the cash came from, unless it had already been laundered through a chain of restaurants or hair salons, for example.

Corrupt banks are not immune to laws requiring disclosure, which do exist even in Mexico, I can pretty confidently assert.

There are international treaties on these things requiring states to have domestic legislation covering them. Do feel free to google.

Obviously, terrorist financing is the other big area of concern for governments. Here's a primer on the two aspects of money-laundering (it includes links):

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/money-laundering/Instruments-Standards.html

The United Nations Conventions and Resolutions

International efforts to curb money-laundering and the financing of terrorism are the reflection of a strategy aimed at, on the one hand, attacking the economic power of criminal or terrorist organizations and individuals in order to weaken them by preventing their benefiting from, or making use of, illicit proceeds and, on the other hand, at forestalling the nefarious effects of the criminal economy and of terrorism on the legal economy. The 1988 United Nations Convention against the Illicit Traffic in Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances is the first international legal instrument to embody the money-laundering aspect of this new strategy and is also the first international convention which criminalises money-laundering.

In September 2003 and December 2005, the UN Convention against Transnational Organized Crime and the UN Convention against Corruption respectively came into force. Both instruments widen the scope of the money-laundering offence by stating that it should not only apply to the proceeds of illicit drug trafficking, but should also cover the proceeds of all serious crimes. Both Conventions urge States to create a comprehensive domestic supervisory and regulatory regime for banks and non-bank financial institutions, including natural and legal persons, as well as any entities particularly susceptible to being involved in a money-laundering scheme. The Conventions also call for the establishment of Financial Intelligence Units (FIUs).

The International Convention for the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism came into force in April 2002. It requires Member States to take measures to protect their financial systems from being misused by persons planning or engaged in terrorist activities.

[GreenStormCloud]

53. I am confident there are bunches of countries that ignore the UN.

Such countries want the money, or the officials that oversee the banks are totally corrupt.

[ileus]

34. That explanation doesn't serve a gun ban agenda

It's that eeeeevil second amendment that's the problem. Dead people be damned it's those sporting firearms that really need attention. I'm tired of people victimizing our firearms, laws, and constitution.

[Meiko]

35. WOW!

68,000 huh? I of course don't believe this BS for a minute. I am sure some guns come from the US but I think I would be looking elsewhere for the origins of these illegal guns. Just sayin'

[ileus]

38. I'll take any of those 68k Mexico doesn't want.