Juvenile offenders and guns

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

I realize in many jurisdictions young people are tried as adults if the crime is serious enough. However, juvenile records that don't make it to adult court get sealed when the individual turns 18. It might be a good idea to add to the list of prohibited buyers those adults under 25, who have gang affiliations along with juvenile convictions on their records.

Any thoughts?

[gejohnston]

1. certainly the convictions

The "gang affiliation" could have problems with abuse and freedom of association. I would add any juvenile cruelty to animals convictions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macdonald_triad
http://www.pet-abuse.com/pages/abuse_connection.php/

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

2. Agreed. n/t

[Oneka]

4. In my home state, MN

having a gang affiliation, precludes one from getting a carry permit.

(5) is not listed in the criminal gang investigative data system under section 299C.091.

This is the language that authorizes the criminal gang data system.

The bureau shall administer and maintain a computerized criminal gang investigative data system for the purpose of assisting criminal justice agencies in the investigation and prosecution of criminal activity by gang members. The system consists of data on individuals whom law enforcement agencies determine are or may be engaged in criminal gang activity.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=624.714#stat.624.714

And who are the law enforcement agencies who "determine" gang activity?

Some of the same guys featured in this story:

http://www.startribune.com/projects/47792482.html

And these guys too

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/08/25/strike-force-settlement/

No possible way for that "system" to become abusive

CRIMINAL CONVICTIONS, and only convictions should be used to limit ones rights, NOT just a determination by law enforcement.

Police officers, might like to play Judge, but they are not Judges!

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

3. That seems fairly "common sense".

[Meiko]

5. It's a great idea

It might be a good idea to add to the list of prohibited buyers those adults under 25, who have gang affiliations along with juvenile convictions on their records.

Some of these "kids" are vicious drug selling gang members and their past should not so easily be forgotten, they get away with enough as it is.

[Hoyt]

6. Well, I think those with gang affiliations like these s/be prohibited too - TParty, NRA,

Ayran nation and all similar right wing groups/gangs.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

7. I don't think there is a "conviction"...

...a court of law for NRA, TParty... membership.
We don't have that kind of government/legal system here.
Sucks for you, huh?

[Hoyt]

9. Just pointing out there are all kinds of dangerous "gangs," not just ones most gun carriers think

of when the strap on their guns.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

13. There is a school...

...of thought that says "ideas are dangerous". Perhaps you have a diploma from there.

[Hoyt]

14. Just don't like to contain discussions of "gangs" to what most gun carriers mean when rationalizing

their gun carrying habits.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

15. I like...

...to use language to communicate so I use terminology as commonly accepted....
Not that certain other organizations couldn't also be referred to for effect using the term "gang".

A very good example which comes to mind would the 1972 Committee to Re-elect the President.



Another would be Mr. Bloomberg's NYPD.

[shadowrider]

16. It's not a PD. It's the 7th largest army in the world, ain't ya heard? n/t

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

17. :( SayItAin'tSo

I was hoping it was a militia or something the Founders would approve of.

[Meiko]

25. Let me think

If I had to choose between two groups that I had to live next to, which one would it be. Would I rather live next to a house full of gangster deciples? or a house full of tea party members.Since they are both gangs do I really need to post the answer.

[permatex]

8. Tparty, NRA, Aryan Nation

who else Hoyt? Who else's civil rights do you want to violate?

[Hoyt]

10. Guns are not "civil rights." Look it up.

[permatex]

12. I didn't say guns were civil rights

Is this your idea of civil rights?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=471849#471995

[Hoyt]

18. Permatex, I would just like to come on here one day and not see you defending NRA, Ayran Nation,

and similar right wing groups. Not to mention Zimmerman, weaver, koresh, etc.

[Clames]

22. Would be nice if you could make a post here that didn't misrepresent...

...or outright lie concerning another's posts. Unless you can show a link where he had supported the Aryan Nation you would be advised to find another thread to post in.

[Hoyt]

23. He finds no problems with weaver's conspiracy with the Ayran Nation. That's a pretty good

indication to me. So how do you feel about gun nuts hanging out (conspiring) with such groups -- a lot of gun culture is into that evil crud?

[permatex]

28. One more time Hoyt

provide the links to what you claim I support.
Show me one post where I have "no problems with weaver's conspiracy with the Ayran Nation".
The only thing I said about the Ayran Nation was to correct you on your assertation that Weaver and family were members and that they lived on the compound.

Why do you continually lie about what I have stated?
Don't you think everyone here realizes what you are doing? What's the purpose?

[ileus]

52. wait untol you get blamed for wanting to shoot civilians

Running from a hurricane.

[gejohnston]

30. you have no problem

with trigger happy cops machine gunning children in the back and another that killed his mom simply because he wanted to kill someone that day.

[Clames]

35. Not as badly as those who falsely accuse, lie, and...

...make statements against others and have no proof to back them up.

[permatex]

24. Hoyt, I would just like to come on here one day and not see you posting lies about other DU'ers.

I know this is useless, but I have to try, post the links where I defended any of these groups.
Your not stating an opinion now, your stating a fact, so prove it.
I proven that you have misstated the truth about Ruby Ridge quite often, and that you approve of cops and citizens violating the civil rights of lawful gun owners, and to top it off, you approve of using drones to take out people you don't approve of.
Yes, I've actually provided links to what I claim.

[Hoyt]

29. Feinstein: "Mr. weaver do you have swastikas?" Weaver: "Well ya . . . I gotta go to bathroom,

really bad."

Feinstein: "Do you have any expolsives?" Weaver: "oh, just some old blasting caps some guy gave me . . . . . ."

[gejohnston]

31. ever been to Korea?

swastikas everywhere. Like you, Feinstein was making excuses for the cops simply because Sammy and Vicki "was not her kind of people"

[Hoyt]

34. If you say so. I don't think swastikas mean the same to Koreans that they do to members of Ayran

Nation.

And, although I do not have a "study" to present to the obfuscators here, I think we both know what swastikas, confederate flags, "don't tread on me" flags, etc., mean in this country. Further, most of us know what it means, and detest, trafficking illegal guns to folks who are into that kind of stuff. Others, apparently, not so much.

[permatex]

37. Are you going to provide proof of what you claim I said or support

or are you going to just keep lying about me?

[permatex]

38. Of course you don't have studies

you never do.

[gejohnston]

51. I know it doesn't

because Zen temples fly it. It his the arch-typical symbol for infinity. It was also found in older Navajo art. That is why it was on the University of New Mexico's ROTC unit patch until the late 1930s. When the symbol became associated with Hitler, UNM replaced it with the Zia, which is still used and found on the license plate.
The follow up question should have been "which way was the swastika pointing".
Do you know what the "don't tread on me" flag means? Smart people call it the Gadsden Flag

The Gadsden flag is a historical American flag with a yellow field depicting a rattlesnake coiled and ready to strike. Positioned below the snake are the words "DONT TREAD ON ME". The flag was designed by and is named after American general and statesman Christopher Gadsden. It was also used by the Continental Marines as an early motto flag, along with the Moultrie Flag.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag

The teabaggers are naive and ignorant sheeple and nothing like the Nazi party or Aryan Nation. At worst they are "good Germans".

[Hoyt]

56. I'll leave defending Tbaggers, swastikas and Ayran Nation to you guys.

Last edited Sun Jul 15, 2012, 02:57 PM - Edit history (1)

I have no interest in defending them. A lot of what they do may be "legal," but I will continue to find it immoral, unethical and worse.


Your last paragraph is interesting:

"The teabaggers are naive and ignorant sheeple and nothing like the Nazi party or Aryan Nation. At worst they are "good Germans".

[permatex]

59. OK Hoyt

whatever you say. You produce zero evidene to what you claim and you keep on lying about what we defend or what we say.

[gejohnston]

61. you are defending criminals and murderers with badges

and I am not defending anyone, simply educating. Oh wait, you are in Georgia. If it isn't moonshine and Molly Hatchet, it is not worth learning or thinking about.

[Hoyt]

67. No molly Hatchet - prefer Flying Burrito Brothers - but low lead moonshine ain't bad.

[shadowrider]

60. The swastika in Korea, a primer

The swastika (Sanskrit svastika, "all is well&quot is a cross with four arms of equal length, with the ends of each arm bent at a right angle. Sometimes dots are added between each arm.

The swastika is an ancient symbol found worldwide, but it is especially common in India. It can be seen in the art of the Egyptians, Romans, Greeks, Celts, Native Americans, and Persians as well Hindus, Jains and Buddhists.

The swastika's Indian name comes the Sanskrit word svasti, meaning good fortune, luck and well being.

In Hinduism, the right-hand (clockwise) swastika is a symbol of the sun and the god Vishnu, while the left-hand (counterclockwise) swastika represents Kali and magic. [font color = red]The Buddhist swastika is almost always clockwise, while the swastika adopted by the Nazis (many of whom had occult interests) is counterclockwise. [/font color]

http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhism/symbols/swastika.htm

[gejohnston]

62. Yes I know,

I was trying to get Hoyt to think. Jump start his brain so to speak. I'm guessing that is like trying to jump start a car that is out of gas.

[shadowrider]

63. More like a car that has no battery n/t

[permatex]

64. Anyone else notice this

Hoyt comes here, disrupts, post mistruths, and then disappears?
That alone should get him banned.
Just my opinion.

[shadowrider]

66. Never happen. He belongs to the protected class of "anti". That alone gives him free reign. n/t

[oneshooter]

65. The right hand swastika was also used by Finland in WW2.

It was the aircraft roundel on both wings and fuselage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Finland_roundel_WW2_border.svg

[permatex]

32. ONE MORE EFFING TIME

Post the links to where I EVER said what you claim I said or support. Quit with the deflecting and prove your statements.

[gejohnston]

27. there is no evidence

that Zimmerman is a racist nor is there evidence that he is right wing.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/12/v-fullstory/2892510/more-evidence-released-in-zimmerman.html

[Hoyt]

39. There is Ayran Nation type racism, and there is "Zimmerman" type. Zimmerman saw a black kid in a

hoodie and took off after him with his gun because Zimmerman automatically assumed Martin was up to no good (being black and all (hope I don't need a sacrcasm thingy)). If the kid had been white, Zimmie would have tipped his hat and drove on by.

That is pretty solid evidence to me, being a non-juror.

[gejohnston]

42. according to the FBI

it was his actions and hoodie, not his race.

[Hoyt]

48. You know darn well if Martin were white, we would not be discussing this -- because

Zimmie never would have taken off after him with his gun. Believe it or not, that is "racism," although not the type the FBI was investigating.

[permatex]

50. Sorry, I don't believe a word you say anymore.

You say it's racism, provide a link that proves that it's racism.
Until you do, and I mean a believable one, I'll take the FBI's word on it.

[Hoyt]

53. What would you call it, Pematex? There is plenty of proof if you are really interested in the truth.

Go ask the general DU membership here what they think, if you don't believe me.

[shadowrider]

54. Asking DU'ers what they think is absolute proof? Sounds more like opinion to me n/t

[permatex]

55. proof? PROOF?

[shadowrider]

57. And if I can find more people who support Zimmerman than people who condemn

him on DU, you'll take that as proof?

Bless your heart

[gejohnston]

58. I don't know that, neither do you

I do know we would never hear about it. I do know that vigilantes like Spike Lee and Roseanne Barr would not be tweeting addresses to lynch mobs.
Are you a racist? In another tread, you accused a guy who was getting the shit beat out of him in front of witnesses a racist because he defended himself. You only know that because the article said the attacker "might have been black"
Yet, you defend cops machine gunning a fleeing child in the back, a white kid. Are you defending the white cop because Sammy was white?

[Oneka]

69. So first

You want to infringe on the rights, of , tea partyers, NRA members, and conflate them with, aryan nation members? Then seek to
Limit the first emendment rights of a fellow
DU member?? Hoyt, what depths of tyranny will you sink to next?

[aikoaiko]

11. That makes good sense....

...coming from you because you're more interested in culture wars than actually reducing gun violence or criminal activity.

Please, Hoyt, please keep posting because you are the perfect foil for those who support RKBA.

[Hoyt]

19. I just want the gun culture to realize there are others -- not just "gangs", "thugs", "gangbangers",

etc., that we need to be worried about.

Like my buddy, Woody, sang: "Some will rob you with a six gun, and some with a fountain pen."

Enjoy your guns and hope the "gang bangers" don't get you.

[Meiko]

20. They are prohibited

if any member has broken a law which prevents them from buying or owning a firearm. Do don't want to get into a situation where the 2A and laws apply to one group but not another.

[NewMoonTherian]

21. This was a potential point of agreement.

This was something gun lovers and gun haters could come together on and support. Then you came in and tossed a bomb into the crowd to cause a bunch of acrimony. What satisfaction do you get out of that?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

68. derailed

[Tuesday Afternoon]

26. appears to be that

you post anything which is obviously disruptive, malicious, or repugnant to this community, its members, or its values, you risk being in violation of these Terms of Service.

you do this quite often.

is it your intention to make DU suck?

[shadowrider]

33. Alert on it. The jury will leave his posts by a 5-1 or 6-0 vote

After all, it's the gungeon.

I quit alerting on him. Personally, I think when he was a robber he got hit in the head with one too many cans of beans.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

36. That is why I call him on it straight to his face.

[Hoyt]

40. I'm sorry, I did not realize you'd find it disruptive to criticize the NRA, TParty, Ayran Nation,

and other right wing groups, including gun sites.

I would think that might be disruptive on Free Republic and similar sites, but not here.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

41. why even mention their dumbass on this site? who gives a ratfuck what they do?

it has fuck all to do with the OP.

[Hoyt]

43. I think it is obvious why I posted that. Gunners say they carry because of "gangs",

I simply pointed out there are other "gangs" that are a whole lot worse.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

45. Hoyt, Your command of the English Language leaves a lot to be desired. --

that you put quotes around gangs is not helping here.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

46. Notably...

...the 3 & 4 letter gangs. See post #44.

[shadowrider]

49. I never said I carry to protect myself from gangs

I've repeatedly said I carry to protect my life and the lives of my family regardless who poses the threat.

Bless your heart

[shadowrider]

47. Hoyt, anyone can criticize any of those organizations till their hearts content

The line is crossed though when posters here are accusing of sympathizing, supporting and cheering on those organizations with no proof other than your misguided posts.

Bless your heart.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

44. The post #6 sub-thread...

...has taken over and spun the discussion into a hoytarian storm of accusations.

Here's a humor diversion:

The heads of the CIA, FBI, and the LAPD were in a conference with the president of the United States. They couldn't accomplish much, however, because of their incessant rivalry with regards to which agency could apprehend suspects the most efficiently and quickly.

The president decides to settle it once and for all by releasing a rabbit into the woods and timing the results of the agencies as a test of efficiency.

The CIA places several animal informants in the woods and after eighteen weeks of deep cover questioning of all the animal, plant and mineral witnesses, they conclude that the rabbit has fled to a foreign country and that they need arms to trade with Columbia in order to get cooperation with extradition efforts.

The FBI surrounds the woods with its own agents and those of the ATF after reports that the rabbit has armed himself and is operating a militia using the woods as a hub of operation. After four weeks of frustration and standoff they rush the woods without warrants and accidentally burn down the whole damned woods with a malfunctioning tear gas canister, killing 112 rabbits, several hundred animal hostages and innocent onlookers. They insisted, however that the rabbit had it coming because they had given him ample time to give himself up.

The LAPD sent four uniformed officers into the woods and in less than an hour returned with a badly beaten black bear who was screaming Okay, Okay, I'm a rabbit.