ATF Acting Director threatens ATF whistleblowers

[Tejas]

#!

At approximately 2:30
"... if you don't find the appropriate way to raise your concerns to your leadership, there will be consequences. ..."

Wonder who put him up to that?

[denverbill]

1. And what is YOUR company's policy for resolving work-related problems.

Where I work, and everywhere else I have worked, you report problems to your supervisor and he is supposed to deal with them. If not, you go to his supervisor and or HR.

If I called the newspaper without telling any supervisor, believe me, I would expect consequences.

[Tejas]

2. Try to keep up: these were ILLEGAL work-related problems.

There is a difference, okay?

[denverbill]

14. Problems caused by the whistle-blower.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/

[gejohnston]

21. We all read it

there was a tread about it. Frankly it has more than a few problems. Starting off with why isn't the ATF using those documents to defend itself against Issa and Grassley, and when does Dodson's trial for violating policy and perjury/lying to congress start? Another is that like most whistleblower cases, the instituion or company covers their ass by screaming "disgruntled employee who whined about working weekends." In other words, total bullshit.

[gejohnston]

35. see the paralells?

between the Fortune article and how Pap and RK Jr describe what happens to whistle blowers in corporations? It is a snow job marketed as an investigation.

&feature=g-all-u

[permatex]

3. Thats all fine and dandy

but ATF has a history of either ignoring or retaliating against whistleblowers.

[Tejas]

5. cleanupatf.org is fired up.

No GOOD reasons for this video that I can think of, it's clearly a threat leveled at potential whistleblowers.

[permatex]

6. Given ATF's past history

regarding whistleblowers, I have no doubt it's designed to intimidate potential whistleblowers.

[littlewolf]

28. I believe that intimidate whistleblowers

is a violation of Federal Law .... what is up with this guy ???

[permatex]

29. Yes it is a violation of Federal Law

but, after all, it is ATF, you know, a law unto themselves.

[Tejas]

7. ATF has 0 credibility, AG in contempt, people are dead.

post #7 here http://cleanupatf.org/forums/index.php?/topic/81-grapevine/

The post by "madea" nails it.

[denverbill]

15. Agreed. We need strict new gun laws.

I'd suggest mandatory registration of gun sales, both in stores and private party sales. That way people who illegally resell guns can be caught and prosecuted.

After all, we are ALL concerned with gun violence and the easy availability of guns. The trickle of guns involved in the gun-walking operations pales in comparison to the torrent run daily by criminals.

[PavePusher]

16. Apply your proposed rules to your books and periodicals first... then we'll talk. n/t

[denverbill]

17. When people start getting killed with books and periodicals, then I'll listen to you. n/t

[beevul]

18. When "getting killed with" becomes the legal criteria, rather than "constitutionally protected"...

When "getting killed with" becomes the applicable legal criteria, rather than "constitutionally protected", your argument may at that point have some basis in reality.


Until then...

[denverbill]

20. So can i assume you think any attempt to regulate gun sales by straw purchasers should be illegal?

If so, why do you have a problem with what the ATF did? If the ATF hadn't sold him the weapons, someone else would have. And more Border Patrol agents would get killed, but nobody would care about them, since the ATF wasn't involved in those gun sales.

[gejohnston]

23. I don't get your question

straw purchases are illegal. It is a felony and has been since 1968. According to the Dodson and other whistleblowers, they had slam dunk cases for conviction that ATF management and the US attorney did not want to bother with.

That said, one problem I have is why should my individual liberties be restricted because of a problem neither myself or the "gun culture" as a whole contribute to? The problem is gang warfare and the drug culture and those who make money off of prohibition, that includes growers in the US who don't like paying their fair share of taxes. If there were no demand for drugs, there would be no wars over trade routes. As for our gun laws affecting it, not at all. You seriously think the cartels are getting machine guns, grenades, and rocket launchers from Gander Mountain?

[Tejas]

26. .gov facilitates straw buys, why should we care????????????

[beevul]

27. So can I assume you think ALL attempts at gun regulation and/or bans should be legal?

Last edited Thu Jul 19, 2012, 11:05 PM - Edit history (1)

See, I can play that game too.

"why do you have a problem with what the ATF did?"

I have a problem with what ATF did, because:

A. People are dead, and ATF is DIRECTLY responsible.

B. they used the results of fast and furious to push for further control, like a fire department going around committing arson to get more fire regulations or a bigger budget - see the long rifle demand letter.

C. They deliberately declined to interdict trafficking of arms across the border, commonly known (and more accurately characterized) as facilitation. Look it up in a dictionary if you need to, then consider what that means where the rule of law is concerned. Furthermore, it goes completely against the mission of ATF which is to INTERDICT those arms.

D. They deliberately left their counterparts in the Mexican government, and indeed their own attache in Mexico, out of the loop.



Why don't you appear to have a problem with any of this?



" If the ATF hadn't sold him the weapons, someone else would have."

Well, that makes it ok, I guess, huh?

Next time, when you're in court for a speeding ticket, or someone you know is, either you, or they, can go with the argument that "gee, if I hadn't been speeding, someone else would have been".

See how well it works out, and get back to us.

And last but not least, the centerpiece of your screed:


"And more Border Patrol agents would get killed, but nobody would care about them, since the ATF wasn't involved in those gun sales."

Your problem, is how you interpret "caring" as you use the word above.

A governmental agency whos job it is to prevent cross border trafficking themselves, facilitated trafficking across the border with no mechanism - I repeat no mechanism - in place to track them, and no cooperation with their counterparts in the Mexican government. Even ATFs own people in Mexico, were kept in the dark about it. And the guy your little piece above tries so desperately to protect - david voth - was "giddy" when those weapons started turning up at crime scenes in Mexico.

People are DEAD because of the ATF.

Thats all proven fact.

Now, your argument amounts to this (and I'll simplify it to make this as clear and obvious as possible):


The premise - a fire department - contrary to their duty and purpose, goes around setting some two thousand fires.

Your argument against the people that object to it is:

"if the fire department hadn't started those fires, someone else would have. And more people would burn to death, but nobody would care, since the fire department wasn't involved in starting those fires".

And thats really about all that needs saying, other than to inquire if your last name is newell.

[denverbill]

46. Given the existing gun laws, how can the ATF stop the flow of illegal weapons into Mexico?

[gejohnston]

48. besides the Gun Control Act?

Export of arms act, take your pick. Either way, there is nothing the ATF can do about most of the guns because most of the guns are not going south via US gun stores. Most are stolen from their own police and military armories, their southern border, and abroad.

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20110209-mexicos-gun-supply-and-90-percent-myth

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090708_mexico_economics_and_arms_trade

[denverbill]

49. Where is your evidence for that statement that 'most are stolen from their own police and military'?

The article doesn't state that.

It states that the Mexicans didn't submit a lot of guns to the ATF because they lacked serial numbers or for other reasons.

If the Mexicans claim 90% of the guns originated in America, it's probably because they were American weapons. The fact that the ATF can't confirm or wasn't asked to confirm their origin doesn't alter the fact that they originated in the US.

It also seems a bit odd that Stratfor concludes that a large portion of Type 1 and Type 2 guns were likely bought in the US and smuggled into Mexico, which is exactly what ATF was trying to stop.

[gejohnston]

51. Ummm no, you missed the point

US origin simply means that they were made or imported in the US at one time. M-16s stolen from a military armory in El Salvador are still "US origin" 40 year old M-16s from Vietnam are still "US origin". That does not mean they are all, or even mostly, coming from US gun stores via straw purchasers. That is a very inefficient system. It would be cheaper for them to get military surplus AKs from Africa.

But Keith Krause, an arms expert and one of the authors of the Geneva Declaration report, said it was not clear how many of the weapons used by Mexican drug gangs came from the United States.
He said only 30 percent of an estimated 100,000 weapons confiscated in Mexico each year are sent by authorities to the United States for identification on suspicion of having crossed the long, porous border.
Of these, 80 percent turn out to be U.S.-made but that does not mean that 80 percent of the overall total of arms seized in Mexico are of U.S. origin, as is often claimed, he said.
"It's not the case that most of the weapons that are seized by Mexican police from drug gangs come from the United States... it's very misleading," Krause told a news briefing.
He said seizures and photographs suggest significant quantities of military-style weapons such as grenades and even rocket launchers, were not coming across the U.S. border but coming from surplus stocks in places such as Guatemala or even from other official sources in Mexico itself.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/27/us-arms-violence-idUSTRE79Q57620111027

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

30. Straw purchases...

...are illegal. Do you want to make them 'double-secret' illegal?

[PavePusher]

32. Mao's Little Red Book, Das Kapital and Mein Kampf have all killed millions of people.

I have copies of all three as research material.

Chemistry test have killed thousands. I still have my college texts.

Etc.

[denverbill]

40. Das Kapital killed people? Really?

The vast majority of Germans didn't even read Mein Kampf. They were inspired in their madness by right-wing radio, demonizing Jews and' sub-human' eastern Europeans.

Funny thing though. I've seen newsreels of German and Japanese soldiers executing people. They always use guns. Not once have I seen them use a book. None of them even appeared to be carrying copies of Mein Kampf or Das Kapital.

I guess it's possible books inspire killings, but guns are the tool of choice for carrying them out.

[PavePusher]

41. I invite your attention to Rwanda.

Hundreds of thousands killed, mostly without guns.

[denverbill]

43. What do Rwanda and Mao's Little Red book has to do with 'gun-walker'?

For some reason, I thought the thread was to discuss ATF's failure to adequately supervise gun sales.

My contention is that the ATF was doing the best it could given the inadequate laws it was trying to enforce.

Is it your contention that because the ATF failed to adequately supervise a gun interdiction program:
a) The ATF should be abolished and no further attempts should be made to stop straw purchases, regardless of how many border patrol agents die
b) The ATF is doing a damned fine job except for a couple rogue agents
c) Obama sucks and everyone in his corrupt regime should be jailed for treason or worse
d) other, explain.

[gejohnston]

44. none of the above

The ATF management needs to be removed and replaced with a more professional force. The problem dates back to when they were part of the IRS. IRS used the unit as a dumping ground for various types of "problem children" who went on to become management and set the corporate culture. They are not doing a good job because they suck. There are good professional agents, just not in management.

Yeah but they are using a business magazine to smear the ones that called them out.

The problem is agencies become partisan enemies of one party or another. If this were the DEA, Issa and Grassley would ignore it and the left would be up in arms and pissed off, and rightfully so. Since it is the ATF it is the opposite.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

33. Shall we start with the Bible? The Koran?

plenty of wars right there. not to mention the Inquisition. The Crusades . . .

[AnotherMcIntosh]

52. Here's one involving a Bible thumper:

Bible-minded woman kills possible romantic rival in SF Bay Area while performing exorcism,
chanting passages from the Bible, and using a book - likely her Bible - to beat the victim.
http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Bible-possibly-used-in-Richmond-slaying-3719888.php

[Tejas]

25. May come as a surprise, but .gov and criminals don't care about laws.

The number of gun laws oft quoted here is a little over 21,000 laws, we need more?

[denverbill]

37. If there is no law which is effective in preventing gun trafficking, obviously, we do.

I'd be interested in reading a list of those 21,000 laws. Can you provide it?

I'd hate to think it was a number somebody just made up and you believed it with no proof. Was it just a guesstimate someone made up because there are about 20,000 towns in the US and if each town had one law we'd be around 20,000?

[Tejas]

38. There are really only about 36-38 towns in the US.

Wiki Answers says there is over 30,000 towns in the US, but that number is probably made up.

[gejohnston]

39. each place can have more than one law

The US has about five federal gun control laws alone. After that each state and territory will have theirs. Assuming each of the latter has each one, but would most likely have at least two dealing with different aspects like carry laws and possession and sales. That makes it an easy 60-170. That is before you get to county and city levels.

[Tejas]

4. Does yours cover work-related murder?

[denverbill]

19. OMG! Which agent committed murder?

Oh wait. It wasn't a work-related murder. It was a murder committed with a gun which was legally purchased by someone who then illegally sold it to someone else who used it to commit a murder, of a Border Patrol agent. My guess is the police are in charge of investigating the murder. That leaves the gun-walking policy itself, which is an internal matter for the ATF and should be routed up the chain of command.

Oh, by the way, some guy was murdered in my company's parking lot a few years ago. That wasn't work-related either, but my advice is call the cops, then tell your supervisor.

[permatex]

22. Illegally purchased with the blessing of the ATF

Kinda left that part out didn't ya. ATF also had no plan to track guns once across the border, also ATF didn't inform Mexican authorities.

[gejohnston]

24. it was not legally purchased

If you give me money to buy a gun, I go to Gander Mountain buy the gun and hand it to you, that is a felony. When MAIG was doing their James O'Keefe act at gun stores in VA and other states, Bloomburg got a nasty gram from the ATF telling him to stop or else.

[Euromutt]

36. And part of the reason Bloomberg got the nastygram...

...was that the MAIG's James O'Keefe act fucked up several ATF investigations by spooking the suspects and prompting them to change up their MO.

[Tejas]

42. "internal matter"? Accessory to murder is an "internal matter"?

Ah, those pesky little details...

[denverbill]

45. Accessory to murder?

So if I sell a gun to someone who turns around and sells it to someone who uses it to kill someone, I'm an 'accessory to murder'?

That's fucking awesome because we could jail damned near every gun dealer in America.

[Tejas]

47. Oh, you work for the ATF?

If you would be doing this in the duties of your job then I think I understand your premise.

[sarisataka]

8. I don't have the reference at hand

But IIRC when agents spoke to their supervisor they were told get with the program or get a new job. When they went to, what would be HR, they were simply ignored.

[4th law of robotics]

34. Riddle: how do you get DUers to support a clamp down on whistleblowers?

Answer should be obvious.

[DonP]

9. I'm sure this is another NRA evil stunt

That's probably Wayne LaPierre in disguise, doing it to make the BATFE and the Justice department look bad and "less than transparent".

[permatex]

10. Damn, your good.

I never even saw that, but upon closer look, it is Wayne in disguise.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

31. Donchaknow...

...Wayne runs the ATF.

[Marinedem]

11. Wow.

I feel safer already.

[Tejas]

12. See something, say something.

We're from the government and we're here to help you.

[Callisto32]

13. Hmmm.

"the appropriate way"

Note the use of the definite article, and singular form.....

[rl6214]

50. That really sounds like an organization that has nothing to hide