How Israel avoids school shootings

[Atypical Liberal]

[TPaine7]

1. That's just wrong

1. Isreal is uncivilized. Assault weapons--real ones--are uncivilized. Guns in school are uncivilized.
2. I am sure thousands of kids have been killed as a result (the NRA has kept us from hearing about them.)
3. Clearly those kids could easily take that gun, and surely some have. (No doubt the NRA has kept us from hearing about them.)
4. Civilized nations protect mass killers by ensuring that they meet no armed resistance until the police arrive. It's sporting, it's humane, and it honors our mass killers.

[Trunk Monkey]

37. I agree that's just wrong

She didn't even have a magazine in that weapon what the hell good was it going to do her in th event of an attack?

[spin]

107. Do you have any idea how fast you can put a magazine in a weapon and a round ...

in the chamber?

[Trunk Monkey]

109. Assuming you carry a semiautomatic pistol, do you carry the magazine separate ?

If not why not? After all Do you have any idea how fast you can put a magazine in a weapon and a round in the chamber?

If you're carrying a weapon for defense you carry it ready to go or not at all.

[spin]

113. I carry a revolver for self defense. ...

All I have to do is pull the trigger and it makes a loud noise.

But then I am not only old but old fashioned. I am what's called a "wheel gunner."

[gejohnston]

115. your Smith isn't old fashioned,

this is old fashioned.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper-box

Hey, I'll take a lever action or an M1 carbine over an AR any day of the week.

[Trunk Monkey]

116. In all seriousness I was being a smart ass on the first post but also in all seriousness

if she's carrying that weapon because Israel views itself as a combat zone then the weapon needs to be ready to go.

[spin]

123. You do make a valid point ...

but it is possible that military regulations require the weapon be unloaded with the magazine detached when a soldier is on furlough and in public.

[Cary]

104. A girl I know was shot 3 times with an AK-47 while waiting for a bus in Israel

She is American. She was simply visiting Israel and a Palestinian shot her while she was waiting for a bus.

How "civilized" is that?

She survived only because Israel's emergency rooms are phenomenal. They have a lot of practice.

[TPaine7]

106. The Palestinian shooting an innocent person? Not at all. How does that relate

to my comments or the OP, for that matter?

[Cary]

108. You claim that Israel is uncivilized.

Last edited Mon Aug 6, 2012, 03:44 PM - Edit history (1)

I claim that your claim is unfair and unjust.

[TPaine7]

110. I also supported honoring and protecting our mass shooters.

The entire post was intended as satire, a mockery of the mindset that sees the idea of a teacher carrying a gun in the presence of schoolchildren as horrifying and uncivilized and that would rather the students be unprotected in the face of an attack.

I apologize for your trouble. I try to make my statements outrageous enough so that they are easily recognizable as satire/sarcasm.

[Cary]

111. I see I misread your post.

Fortunately we are not Israel. I am troubled by the comparison.

[Hoyt]

2. Israel's situation is a bit different from ours. Besides, you guys would freak if we had same laws.

For example: Permit holders for self-defense purposes may own only one handgun, and may purchase a maximum of fifty rounds a year, except for those shot at firing ranges.

In Israel, assault rifles are banned except for special circumstances, such as communal self-defense in areas deemed to be a security risk.

Guns are strictly limited. I don't expect many gun cultist to move to Israel.

[TPaine7]

4. And your source is? n/t

[Hoyt]

5. If you care to dispute what I said, please do. Those are example of restrictions in Israel.

Look it up.

[TPaine7]

7. If I wanted to dispute what you said, I would have.

You know I've disputed you often.

I asked for exactly what I wanted--your source. Don't be offended; if you have no source, it's ok to just say so. It won't surprise anyone.

[Hoyt]

10. I read several sources from first 10 Google search. Let's hear your version.

Bet you were shocked at thought of being limited to 1 handgun, and perhaps no rifle.

Now your turn.

[TPaine7]

13. I have no "version" of your source; it's YOUR source, remember? n/t

[Hoyt]

16. Hope you have all your guns locked up if you are around people.

Truthfully, if I pulled it out of my rear - it's still a fact.

[TPaine7]

24. That explains a lot

We define "fact" differently, but at least now I understand your sourcing philosophy.

Truthfully, if I pulled it out of my rear - it's still a fact.

[Hoyt]

26. It was researched, and is a fact. You can verify.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

59. good lord. Hoyt. Post a link to the quote that you supposedly cited. how hard is that? --

you should be able to post all ten of the Google links with no problem. You know it is common practice on DU to provide links to source your position.

[Hoyt]

60. Good lord, Tuesday, post a link to a source that refutes what I said about Israel's gun laws.

Last edited Sun Aug 5, 2012, 01:47 PM - Edit history (2)

You can't.

[rl6214]

101. Ehem...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117249755#post15

Hoyt (8,233 posts)

15. When you quote something like that, it is customary to give a link to the source.

[spin]

63. I always try to link to any research I find, you NEVER do. ...

It is easy to do and doesn't require ANY exceptional knowledge. Just excerpt a few paragraphs of the article and copy and past the link. If you like you can use the tags at the top of the post block to highlight your excerpt but it really is not necessary. DU makes posting excerpts and links easy and fun.

It would also help your argument to be far more powerful and impressive than merely stating your opinion without any support.

You do seem to be one of the more vocal proponents of gun control and opposition to legal concealed carry in the Gungeon. Since I love a good and polite debate, I am attempting to help you become a far more formidable opponent.

Of course you can take my advise or simply ignore it. That is an should be your choice.

[Hoyt]

64. Fine, set me straight by showing where I am wrong. I'll wait.

[gejohnston]

67. what I find interesting is

handguns are easier to own than rifles.

[Hoyt]

69. It is interesting. As is fact you are only one who has looked at this rather than trying to

obfuscate by focusing on "links" when it is so dang easy to check whether I am right or wrong.

[gejohnston]

70. I didn't look

I already knew. But it is your job to back up any claims.

[friendly_iconoclast]

74. Ahem: "When you quote something like that, it is customary to give a link to the source."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117249755#post15

Was your account hacked, or are you contradicting yourself?

[Hoyt]

77. Another gun culture stalker. Israeli law is there for the looking. That is a citation to anyone

with the capacity to look it up.

Just putting down a quote, where there is no indication of where it came from is not a citation.

Israeli Law is a pretty exacting citation. But then, I'm dealing with people who believe there's a boogeyman out to get them and more guns are good for society (and those who profit from them).

[spin]

71. Why should I bother? ...

You stated your opinion and say that your research backed it up. Until you back up your research with a link it is to me merely an opinion.

I once heard the comment that, "Opinions are a lot like assholes as everyone has one."

I'm trying to give you some advice on how to better represent your side of the debate. You can chose to ignore it and that is fine with me but realize that merely because you expressed an unsupported opinion that in no way obligates me to refute it.

[Common Sense Party]

84. As long as Wikipedia is considered a credible source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics#Israel

[spin]

90. I find several things interesting about Israeli firearm law ...

One is:

Residents of Israeli settlements in the West Bank are issued assault rifles and ammunition by the army, and are given civil defense training. However, the rifles and munitions are property of the army, and may be confiscated at any time.

The most interesting fact is these citizens are issued actual military weapons which have the capacity of fully automatic or burst fire. Do not confuse such weapons with the evil looking black rifles we often argue about in our nation. While it is true that they resemble ture military weapons they are merely crippled clones as they only fire in the semi-automatic mode.

Self-defense firearms may be carried in public, concealed or openly. Israel is notable for being a country with few places where firearms are off limits to licensed individuals (private premises, some government offices and institutions, courts).

There doesn't appear to be a lot of gun free zones in Israel. Gun free zones attract people with severe mental issues like honey attracts a bear. Such individuals are looking to rack up a high score of kills and the best place to accomplish this is a shooting gallery where the targets can't shoot back.

Soldiers are allowed to carry their personal weapons and ammunition while on furlough during active service, uniformed or in civilian clothing.

If this were true in the United States there would be a movement to force soldiers to leave their weapons in the base armory while on furlough.

In many regards Israeli gun control is far stricter than ours but it is also obvious that there is no major movement in that nation to ban or confiscate all firearms.

(note: all above excerpts from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics#Israel)


In the United States many are upset to see Tea Party gatherings where people are armed.


(source: http://www.therightperspective.org/2010/08/17/hundreds-bear-arms-for-2nd-amendment/)

However in Israel these are common scenes:




(source of above images http://www.blameitonthevoices.com/2008/01/israeli-women-and-their-guns.html


Young israelis carrying M16 and Tavor assault rifles on Jaffa Street in the center of the city of Jerusalem. Photo by Serge Attal/Flash 90
http://www.jewishjournal.com/israel/article/despite_militarized_society_israels_strict_gun_laws_keep_civilian_violence_/

(source: http://therealrevo.com/blog/?p=25245)

Of course it is fair to argue that Israeli soldiers have far more reason to carry military weapons in public than members of the Tea Party at a gathering.

Israeli firearms law appears to me to be realistic for that nation at this time. Obviously they oppose civilians accumulating an arsenal of firearms or a stockpile of ammo. We might learn some valuable lessons from their experience but many of their laws are impossible to implement in our nation at this time. Currently we find compromise impossible on many important issues in our nation.

Even if times change I doubt that we can ever reach a point where a civilian is limited to just owning one rifle, shotgun and handgun unless he/she is a a member of a recognized shooting club.

[rl6214]

97. Prove you're right, we're ALL waiting

until you do, you're just wrong

[rl6214]

102. Ehem...

Hoyt (8,233 posts)

15. When you quote something like that, it is customary to give a link to the source.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117249755#post15

[rl6214]

100. Ehem...

Hoyt (8,233 posts)

15. When you quote something like that, it is customary to give a link to the source.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117249755#post15

[rl6214]

99. Ehem...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117249755#post15

Hoyt (8,233 posts)

15. When you quote something like that, it is customary to give a link to the source.

[4th law of robotics]

66. That's interesting

make a factual claim with no source then demand others disprove it.

Bizarre.

[shadowrider]

72. Such is the way of the anti-gun people. With the exception of one (That I can think of)

That's the way they operate.

[rl6214]

98. Ehem...

Hoyt (8,233 posts)

15. When you quote something like that, it is customary to give a link to the source.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117249755#post15

[Atypical Liberal]

45. LOL, where else would you shoot them?

Permit holders for self-defense purposes may own only one handgun, and may purchase a maximum of fifty rounds a year, except for those shot at firing ranges.

LOL, where else would you shoot them? Sounds to me like I could purchase as many rounds as I wanted, since I do all my shooting at firing ranges.

[Hoyt]

50. Yep, at a range. Have em at home, go to jail.

You guys are always thinking of ways around laws that restrict your guns. That's why society has to be tough on you guys.

[Atypical Liberal]

119. That doesn't make sense.

At our public ranges here in Alabama, there is no store or any other kind of facility. The public just shows up with their guns and ammo and shoots. No one is here to sell you ammunition.

[Hoyt]

122. We are talking Israel here. Having been to Alabama a bunch, it is very different from Israel.

[Atypical Liberal]

124. I don't care where you are talking about.

Not every shooting range sells ammunition. And you just said you had to *shoot* it at a range, not buy it there.

[Hoyt]

125. There would be plenty of ammo stands if you had to buy ammo at range.

I think that would be a good law here. And you would be limited to 50 rounds for self-defense with your one handgun.

That would freak gun culture out, especially those who profit from guns.

[Atypical Liberal]

126. Good luck with that.

I continue to reload my own ammunition.

And what stops people from taking ammo home with them from the range? Gonna search everyone's bags as they go home?

[Hoyt]

127. Ah, more evidence you guys aren't as law-abiding as you like us to believe.

[Atypical Liberal]

130. There are laws that I would not obey.

Make no mistake, there are limits to the injustices I will submit to. If and when those limits are reached, I will become a law-breaker.

[Hoyt]

131. Whew.

[TPaine7]

132. So you would obey *any* law?

Does the legislature function as your conscience?

Whew!

[Hoyt]

134. No, I would not obey just any law unless it is best for society. And I wouldn't pop off sounding

like a right wing gun nut (randy weaver with his guns and hate, comes to mind) either over something that is good for our society and future or that is not likely to occur -- "they gonna restrict my semi-autos, so I'm going to live in a compound and shoot anyone who screws with me."

[Atypical Liberal]

136. "No, I would not obey just any law..."

Whew.

[gejohnston]

133. would you obey an immoral law?

This is the kind of area where there are loopholes in Godwin's Law. You know, would you hide Anne Frank's family sort of stuff. On the more mundane level, do you obey all the drug laws?

[Hoyt]

135. GE, we are talking about guns and society, not Anne Frank. Why do you guys have to sound so dang

silly over your friggin guns and access to more and more? Get real.

[Atypical Liberal]

137. No, what we are talking about is limiting ammo purchases to shooting ranges.

And a 50 round limit for a single handgun, and the prevention of home ammunition manufacture.

[gejohnston]

138. we are not talking about Randy Weaver either

so how law abiding are you?

[Hoyt]

139. You are sounding like him.

[gejohnston]

140. for example?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

62. You emboldened it. You link it. It is on you to prove it.

[friendly_iconoclast]

75. He expects others to provide links- yet *he* won't:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117249755#post15

Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #14)

Thu Jul 12, 2012, 05:28 PM

Star Member Hoyt (8,202 posts)
15. When you quote something like that, it is customary to give a link to the source.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

78. excuse me - but, I think you just

handed him His Ass on a Silver Platter

[TheCowsCameHome]

3. That'd sell well here in the US.

Not.

[physioex]

6. Wouldn't it be easier not to commit atrocities? EOM

[TPaine7]

8. And that would be enough if people of goodwill comprised the entire population. n/t

[Hoyt]

12. Hate to say it cause I love you guys w/o your guns, but there are plenty of toters with dubious good

will.

[TPaine7]

18. Agreed.

Most of them carry concealed weapons illegally. Personally, I don't think disarming their intended victims is wise. It's definitely unconstitutional.

[Hoyt]

19. I think there are a lot like Zimmerman.

[Atypical Liberal]

46. The data does not support your "thinking".

[Hoyt]

47. I think the data does.

[GreenStormCloud]

53. The Texas data supports legal concealed carry.

In Texas the detailed statistics are compiled annually by the Department of Public Safety and published on the internet. It is likely that the Texas experience with Concealed Handgun Licenses would be about the same in other states. The last year for which statistics are published is 2011 for convictions. http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/index.htm

In 2011 there were 512,625 people who had CHLs. Out of those people there were exactly four (4) murder convictions. Out of the general population there were 553 convictions for murder in its various forms.
So very, very few CHL holders go bad, but some do.

The DPS also publishes an annual Crime in Texas Report. http://www.dps.texas.gov/crimereports/10/citCh3.pdf
From that report, page 15:

Statistics on murder circumstances, victims, and
victim/offender relationships on the next page
include justifiable homicides. Justifiable homicide
is the killing of a felon by a peace officer in the
line of duty or the killing (during the commission
of a felony) of a felon by a private citizen. In
2010, there were 98 justifiable homicides, of
which, 50 were felons killed by private citizens,
and 48 were felons killed by police.

In Texas all homicides, even those that are clearly self-defense, have to go before a grand jury which will rule if the killing was justified or not. So those 50 justified private citizen homicides were ones in which the defender genuinely and legitimately feared for his life. Since most shootings are merely woundings there would be a much larger number of justified woundings in which the defender genuinely feared for his life, but that number is not kept. Obviously there are dozens of cases each year in which a CHL holder uses their gun to save themselves.

Dozens of innocent lives saved versus four innocents killed shows the concealed carry is working in Texas. As already stated, there is no reason to believe that other CCW states have a different experience.

Legal concealed carry saves innocent lives.

[Hoyt]

61. Once again, you need to compare permit holders to those who qualify for a permit but know guns

aren't needed in society.

[GreenStormCloud]

80. You entirely missed the point of the post. CCWer save innocent lives.

People who could qualify for CC but don't are unable to fight back against violent crime. They are called "victims".

Since you have posted that you are a former robber it is not surprising that you have such animosity toward armed citizens. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=45338

[Hoyt]

85. You are wrong. People can - and do everyday - defend themselves without a gun.

[Missycim]

89. Sorry staves and cans of beans

dont count.

[Hoyt]

91. Something like that has always worked for me and millions more. Try it.

[Missycim]

92. lol

I like you Hoyt, when i am down in the dumps your lies make me laugh...

[Hoyt]

93. Same here. Irrational fear, while sad, can be quite humorous.

[shadowrider]

65. Provide a link and prove it. Oh, wait, it's Hoyt, nevermind n/t

[friendly_iconoclast]

76. "When you quote something like that, it is customary to give a link to the source."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117249755#post15

[Atypical Liberal]

121. I think you are wrong.

You're wrong.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117255264

[rl6214]

103. That all you can ever do is make accusations

[gejohnston]

9. yes but unfortunately,

too often kids who are too young to vote land up paying for the crimes of the politicians and generals.

[physioex]

38. So you would have no objection....

It the teachers and or individuals in the Palestinian territories were equally armed against any threats?

[gejohnston]

41. not at all but

I would rather see the politicians work out their problems diplomatically or in a game of rollerball where they are the players. Meanwhile, Israeli and Palestinian teachers and individuals go to the range together and shoot at paper targets before having lunch and beer together (with the guns being put away in their cars before breaking out the beer of course.) Then neither would have to carry a rifle or sub-machine gun on school field trips.

[physioex]

42. Cool....

I can respect that you are consistent even if we disagree guns don't belong in a school environment, at least with the teachers. I think there could be many consequence like if a fight broke out and the teacher had to intervene. When I was growing up we had a regular police presence. Not for security, but more for social interaction as they would discuss things like fire safety, safe driving, security at home, and they would regularly eat lunch with us in the cafeteria.

[gejohnston]

43. her carbine has no magazine and I'm guessing

no round in the chamber. So, no one would get shot. Even with the magazine in, I doubt there would be a round in the chamber, since that is how the Israeli military carries their weapons until needed. The chance of an accidental shooting is zero. Depends on the school environment, I was in my high school's rifle club. Every Thursday I took my .22 rifle put it and my box of ammo in my locker along with the other members. It sat there until it was time to go to the range in the basement.

[DWC]

11. "If every Jewish and anti-Nazi family in Germany

had owned a Mauser rifle, twenty rounds of ammunition, and the will to use it, Adolf Hitler would be a little-known footnote to the history of the Weimar Republic."
--- Aaron Zelman ---

History has taught us the critical importance of armed defense of ourselves and those in our charge. Thankfully, some have taken that lesson seriously.

Semper Fi,

[Hoyt]

14. Yeah, that is likely to happen here. Keep a couple at home if you just can't overcome that fear.

[DWC]

21. "Better to remain silent

and have others think you a fool than to speak your mind and prove it."
--- Anon ---

Semper Fi

[Hoyt]

27. Shoot, I hoped you'd put it in your own words.

[DWC]

79. OK, In my own words

Dear Hoyt:
In my opinion, it is much better for you to remain silent on this subject, even though some think you a fool; rather than making comments like your response to me and prove them correct.

Semper Fi,

[Hoyt]

86. I don't share your opinion about that or guns.

[rl6214]

105. I do

as do many others here.

[CokeMachine]

129. I'll have to agree with that. nt

[physioex]

34. So Israel would have no objections to the Palestinians being equally armed? EOM

[gejohnston]

44. until the 1960s

the south had stricter gun laws than the rest of the country other than New York. Check out North Carolina's handgun licensing scheme. I suspect the same difference. Somehow I figure a Palestinian Muslim or Christian would be "unfit" regardless of how fit they would be any place else.

[COLGATE4]

57. File under 'Wishful thinking'.

[ileus]

15. Is that an M1?

[rDigital]

22. M1 Carbine .30, magazine not inserted.

[ileus]

25. My neighbor and I will sit on his back porch

And plink away with his on occasion...

Kinda costly but worth the fun.

[rDigital]

28. Nice. It's worth the cost.

.30 carbine is an expensive plinker, but I love ancient guns. My friend has a Garand .30-06 and we shoot clay pigeons (on the ground) with it. A lot of surplus ammo is coming over from S. Korea right now for .30 carbine and .30-06 be on the look out.

My favorite plinker is a lever action Henry H001 in .22LR. Plink all day, you're going to have to try really hard to hit $20 in ammo cost.

[oneshooter]

83. Carefull with that ammo! Most of the Korean stuff is corrosive, VERY corrosive.

I have seen two barrels ruined by not cleaning, and in one case by not properly cleaning after shooting that ammo.

The 30 carbine is loaded with non corrosive primers, but leaves the barrel and action very dirty.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[ileus]

87. I just ordered a cmmg conversion kit for the AR.

I'd been wanting a dedicated 22 upper for a while, however.com I also "need" a hunting caliber AR. Since I don't shoot one of the AR's that much I figure it can be my "dedicated" 22 upper.

For my use the 22 kit will do because I'm only wanting it for the kids and family to plink with when were out shooting. I already have two nice target 22's, one bolt and one built 10/22 so minute of paper plate is just fine.

plus I really wanted my next dedicated 22 to be another pistol to go along with my MKII and SR22.

[slackmaster]

56. I've never stopped kicking myself in the ass for not buying a bunch of them when they were cheap

I remember when they were well under $200 and plentiful.

[ileus]

88. Yup I remember making fun of them way back when I thought guns were only for hunting.

"Underpowered pieces of junk. My 44 mag pistol is a better deer getter." I never thought as a kid about the historical significance or the pure pleasure of shooting one of the little carbines.

Kids....

[GreenStormCloud]

54. She might have a 15 rund magazine in it.

Those don't stick out very far.

[DanTex]

17. LOL. You are aware that Israel has far stricter gun laws than the US, right?

I mean, seriously, how clueless are you guys? Like most civilized nations, Isreal has much stricter gun laws than the US, including things like registration and licensing for handgun ownership that American gun nuts would describe as "draconian":

Unlike in the United States, where the right to bear arms is guaranteed in the Constitution’s Second Amendment, Israel’s department of public security considers gun ownership a privilege, not a right. Gun owners in Israel are limited to owning one pistol, and must undergo extensive mental and physical tests before they can receive a weapon, and gun owners are limited to 50 rounds of ammunition per year.

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/07/24/3101546/despite-militarized-society-israels-strict-gun-laws-keep-civilian-violence-down

And, due in part to the strict gun laws, Isreal has far less gun violence than the US. The same story as the UK, Japan, Canada, etc. Here's a tip. If you are trying to advocate in favor of loose gun laws, the very last thing you want to do is bring up countries besides than the US, because it really hurts your case. There's a reason that American gun nuts are mostly ignorant right-wing rah-rah-USA people who have never left the state they grew up in much less the country. Because once you realize that a world without rampant gun violence is possible, the NRA propaganda looks much less appealing.

[gejohnston]

20. if you ever actually traveled to any of those places, let alone

live there and learn anything about the culture and history, you would know that their gun laws have nothing to do with their violence or murder rate or any of their social ills.

There's a reason that American gun nuts are mostly ignorant right-wing rah-rah-USA people who have never left the state they grew up in much less the country. Because once you realize that a world without rampant gun violence is possible, the NRA propaganda looks much less appealing.

you remind me of most antis I know, most of which:
are usually ideologues and sycophants with a black/white world view.
don't actually know any "gun nuts"
narrow and judgmental, but convince themselves how liberal and open minded they are
classist
not very well traveled about the world, the US, or even outside their city, suburb or social class.

[Hoyt]

30. I think most of us know some gun nuts. Unfortunately, I've encountered far too many.

[gejohnston]

31. none of the ones I have met and known

are anything like the ones you or DanTex describe. There is a difference between a member of the gun culture and some guy with a gun. So tell me, are your gun owning family members Klan members too?

[Hoyt]

32. I think you are looking at them from a gun cultist's perspective.

[gejohnston]

33. no, don't think so. BTW

didn't answer my question.

[Hoyt]

35. None left carry a gun, so do not qualify for despicable organizations.

Have no interest in such. So where is your attestation?

[gejohnston]

36. to what?

[braddy]

23. I bet as many Arabs meet the requirements as blacks met Americas post Civil War gun law requirements

[Atypical Liberal]

48. I think the commentary is more about how to stop shootings rather than about gun laws.

The commentary expressed by the picture is more about how to stop shootings (by someone who is armed) rather than a commentary on gun laws.

[DanTex]

55. But the reality is, the way Isreal stops shootings is by having tight gun laws.

They use the same method as every other industrialized nation other than the US, and it works very successfully.

That photo was probably taken in one of the settlements, which opens a whole different can of worms. If you feel like defending Isreal's occupation of Palestinian territories, including arming settlers with assault rifles, you probably should take up that argument in I/P.

[gejohnston]

58. which is nonsense

because black market guns are easy to get especially there. If the photo was taken in one of the settlements, wouldn't the teacher have a more modern weapon? Oh yeah, an M1 carbine is not an assault rifle.

[Atypical Liberal]

120. I'm not making any commentary on settlements.

Frankly I think Israel needs to leave the Palestinians alone.

But that's not what this picture is about. This picture is about deterring and being able to respond to violence with a firearm, because they know that when faced with violence the best way to stop it is with a gun.

[davidthegnome]

29. I imagine she knows how to use it, too

It is strange to me that she can carry around such a weapon and people aren't overly concerned about it. I imagine though, that this is because of strict gun control laws that have determined her to be mentally and physically capable of handling herself with a weapon.

Another thing that occurs to me... those children are beautiful and so is the woman with them. Just an observation... but when you have something that precious, I imagine you'll go to great lengths to protect it.

While I'm not opposed to the idea of school teachers being armed, I really think we'd want to reconsider their pay, benefits and psychological condition before we actually arm them. We do need stricter gun control laws... hell, we need some. I could take a ride around town tomorrow and without so much as a blink, I could get myself any number of shotguns, pistols or rifles with the ammunition to go with them. Some legal, some not... the point is, I have a mental illness which should prevent me from owning one.

Now generally I obey the laws of this Country, especially when they make sense. People like me shouldn't have guns. You wouldn't want me holding one when I have a panic attack, or when I become very depressed. You wouldn't want someone with worse conditions than I have to point one at you, or to be walking around a shopping mall or a school with one.

All the same... this happens all the damn time. Reasonable, smart gun control laws would go a long way towards helping. Much harsher punishment for those involved in illegal weapon sales and purchases would help as well.

I'm not saying people shouldn't have guns. In fact I'm glad that the woman in the photo has one to protect those children. I am saying though, that some of us should not own them. I am one of those people. How many people like me do you think will obey the law? I think most of us do - but it is the few that don't that give us nightmares like the theatre shootings, school shootings and various disasters throughout our history.

[TPaine7]

39. I am all for stronger laws against trafficking.

I am all for better reporting of mental health disqualification.

I think trafficking prevention and disqualification reporting are the sweet spots for contitutional improvement of gun control.

[petronius]

82. I agree with you there - focus on the 'who' rather than the 'what'

An awful lot of gun control - things like AWBs and magazine limits - is security theater that contributes little if anything to public safety. On the other hand, improvements to NICS (and education) can have real impacts...

[shadowrider]

68. Here we go again. Please elaborate on what you think "Reasonable, smart gun control laws"

would look like. In your own words.

The problem is, no one can agree on what is "reasonable and smart".

[4th law of robotics]

73. Unfortunately for too many the definition always seems to be "just a little more".

[shadowrider]

81. Yup. Always givin up. n/t

[davidthegnome]

95. Alright.

How about a law mandating classes in safety first of all - for any would be gun owner. Secondly, guns should not be available - at all, to anyone with a history of mental illness. I say this as someone who has a history of it. Legally, at least. Illegally, well, we need to really step up our efforts in halting or at least lowering illegal sales. These laws vary from State to State, I think we need federal mandates to make it even for everyone.

Is that unreasonable? Is it not smart? First of all, it at least will help those who are purchasing a fire arm not to shoot themselves in the foot or leave a loaded gun lying around in the open. It would also make it more likely that those owning fire arms would be more mentally stable.

What it comes down to is responsible ownership and use. Only those who are trained and capable of doing so responsibly should have the ownership and use of deadly fire arms.

Would this solve the problems? As a whole, no. I think it would be a good start though.

[gejohnston]

96. about mental illness

how do you define mental illness? Where do you draw the line? Are you talking mild depression, but no threat to anyone? Anyone who goes to grief counseling? How does that square with privacy laws? Do you agree with McCarthy wanting to disqualify veterans, or anyone who went to the VA for counseling?

Then there is the whole due process issue. As much as you think it sucks, current law is the lesser of the two evils. It kind of sounds like Bush's "terror watch list" that doesn't contain any terrorist suspects, as many progressive and liberal pundits pointed out, until Lautenberg wanted to add people those people to NICS.
Current law is if a judge declares you mentally incompetent, you may not legally purchase or possess a gun.

[davidthegnome]

117. Do you know how many people...

even among the severely mentally ill, have actually been declared mentally incompetent by a judge? I can tell you, it's one hell of a process and rarely happens in any but the most severe circumstances.

No, I'm not talking about anyone who goes to grief counseling, I'm not a fan of McCarthy and no, no one needs to be disqualified for counseling.

What I'm talking about is a reasonable psychological evaluation to determine if you're likely to be a danger to yourself, or to others, if you want to own a fire arm. The goal is to limit access to fire arms (at least somewhat) for people who are ready to kill themselves or others. Granted, they could use any number of tools for this - but generally speaking, guns are the most widely available (to the average person) that can cause so many deaths so quickly.

There is a big difference between mild depression and someone who has attempted suicide multiple times, or someone who is bi-polar, off their meds and in a manic state as opposed to someone who's condition is controlled by a responsible physician and medication/counseling. Since you're asking, I am talking about more severe cases.

I'm not suggesting we limit weapons to the elite, to any particular class or creed. Rather, I am saying that some of us simply should not be legally permitted to own them. I should not be. I won't go into detail about why, but suffice it to say I have greater issues than mild depression.

If you want to have a gun, for self defense, hunting, for whatever purpose you desire (provided it's legal) then fine. Is it really so unreasonable that we take steps to ensure they don't end up in the wrong hands quite as frequently as they do?

A gun is a tool, but it is a dangerous tool, as such, I think it needs to be handled with more care and responsibility.

The current system in place DOES suck.

[shadowrider]

118. My response

1) Additional training - I have no problem with that
2) Mental Illness - Unless someone has been adjudicated as mentally ill, there is no indication anywhere he shouldn't be able to buy a gun. Now, someone may be crazy as a loon and it's known to family and friends. That knowledge doesn't count.

How would you prevent abuse? Angry wife decides to tell the local police her ex is crazy and he owns a gun. Is that enough?

[physioex]

40. Amazing how people show the sanitized version on one side and not the other...

&feature=colike

[Atypical Liberal]

49. Lesson I took away from the video.

Don't bring rocks to a gunfight.

[Remmah2]

94. Unarmed? NOT

Should not have been throwing rocks.

I don't agree w/the shooting (excessive force). The politics of the regions is a smoldering mess and grows short tempers.

[physioex]

114. Seriously?

Should not have been encroaching on indigenous land.

[shadowrider]

51. Here's another one

[shadowrider]

52. A few more

Link: http://www.blameitonthevoices.com/2008/01/israeli-women-and-their-guns.html

[tk2kewl]

112. ARM ALL THE TEACHERS!

Merit Pay for good marksmanship. At least you can measure that accurately.

[Remmah2]

128. All teacher's I know have two arms.

Go figure.