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DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Topics » Justice & Public Safety » Gun Control & RKBA (Group) » posting this again for di...

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 12:15 PM

backwoodsbob (6,001 posts)

posting this again for discussion about air rifles

for those who havent followed the advances in breakbarrel air rifle tech,there are some air rifles(that's not even the right term anymore)that are coming close to deer rifle ability.

At what point do we start regulating air rifles like other guns?I can go to any air rifle manufacturer website and order a breakbarrel that at this point rivals many rifles with no questions asked.

I LOVE my breakbarrels and dont want them stopped but people think these things are like dads old red rider bb gun and buy them for the kids and nothing is further from the truth.

I'm looking at selling two of my old air rifles to buy a gamo .25 that shoots at 2,000 fps.

Do we really need kids walking around with a pellet gun that is damn near is as powerful as a .25-06?

Yes this has been my pet worry,but dayum,,these things are getting insanely powerful with the new hydraulic systems and there are no controls on them.

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24 replies	Author	Time	Post
posting this again for discussion about air rifles (Original post)	backwoodsbob	Dec 2012	OP
First, we have to seriously regulate conventional rifles...	Agnosticsherbet	Dec 2012	#1
"First." What do you consider as "Last?"	Eleanors38	Dec 2012	#7
We don't regulate semi-automatic weapons or the size of magazines...	Agnosticsherbet	Dec 2012	#10
"Gun manufacturers are not responsible for the mayhem they facilitate."	beevul	Dec 2012	#15
My air rifle is older, a Beeman R1 in .20.	NYC_SKP	Dec 2012	#2
Looking around, here is a "scary" model on Amazon. Full auto belt fed .22.	NYC_SKP	Dec 2012	#3
you got that right	backwoodsbob	Dec 2012	#5
There are...	Puha Ekapi	Dec 2012	#4
It won't be long before...	discntnt_irny_srcsm	Dec 2012	#6
I lived -- and shot ...	holdencaufield	Dec 2012	#8
Exactly.	Puha Ekapi	Dec 2012	#9
Engaging in logical fallacy invalidates everything you say. See Slippery Slope...	Agnosticsherbet	Dec 2012	#11
The problem with that argument is...	beevul	Dec 2012	#16
First air rifle capable of felling a deer, appeared in the US in 1785.	AtheistCrusader	Dec 2012	#12
can it do this?	backwoodsbob	Dec 2012	#13
The range isn't clear in that shot.	AtheistCrusader	Dec 2012	#14
I though the Girandoni was a .46 caliber ball repeater	SeattleVet	Dec 2012	#21
Calibers varied.	AtheistCrusader	Dec 2012	#24
Even the most powerful....	Puha Ekapi	Dec 2012	#17
Not to be nit picky...	Flyboy_451	Dec 2012	#18
Where did you...	Puha Ekapi	Dec 2012	#22
In New Jersey you have to go to a FFL Dealer	oneshooter	Dec 2012	#19
Go read Sherlock Holmes...	bobclark86	Dec 2012	#20
We need to ban assault air rifles.	Nutsmustbecracked	Dec 2012	#23

Response to backwoodsbob (Original post)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 12:36 PM

Agnosticsherbet (11,619 posts)

1. First, we have to seriously regulate conventional rifles...

And that will be a very tough fight because the Gun Lobby and Gun Culture is very powerful.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 02:12 PM

Eleanors38 (18,318 posts)

7. "First." What do you consider as "Last?"

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #7)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 06:47 PM

Agnosticsherbet (11,619 posts)

10. We don't regulate semi-automatic weapons or the size of magazines...

Some states like Oklahoma do not register rifles or shotguns. Laws are not uniform from state to state. Gun manufacturers are not responsible for the mayhem they facilitate.

I'm not sure what you're getting at by "last." I support strong regulation of firearms. Before anyone is going to consider regulating air rifles, we should set up unIform regulation of firearms for public safety.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #10)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 05:45 AM

beevul (12,194 posts)

15. "Gun manufacturers are not responsible for the mayhem they facilitate."

Are alcohol manufacturers?

Or is that only important based on the arbitrarily defined "purpose" or the thing in question?

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Response to backwoodsbob (Original post)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 12:37 PM

NYC_SKP (68,644 posts)

2. My air rifle is older, a Beeman R1 in .20.

Here:

Accurate but not deadly for anything larger than rats or squirrels.

I haven't researched newer models at all but I'm sure they have become far more powerful.

I'm not sure why there haven't been calls for regulation, but it might be because many advocates for control know so little about what they are trying to control.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 01:05 PM

NYC_SKP (68,644 posts)

3. Looking around, here is a "scary" model on Amazon. Full auto belt fed .22.

Cheap, too!

http://www.amazon.com/SMG-Full-Auto-Belt-Pellet/dp/B005FMPY5O/ref=sr_1_5?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1356799212&sr=1-5&keywords=air+pistol

In all seriousness, some of the specially charged high pressure models (not this one) could, I think, penetrate the skull, and I'm sure many out there are already deadly.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 02:01 PM

backwoodsbob (6,001 posts)

5. you got that right

that's why it's so hair pulling insane to try to argue real gun regulation with an antigunner...they don't listen.

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Response to backwoodsbob (Original post)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 01:49 PM

Puha Ekapi (594 posts)

4. There are...

large caliber air rifles up to .50 that are being used to take big game.

http://www.quackenbushairguns.com

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Response to Puha Ekapi (Reply #4)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 02:12 PM

discntnt_irny_srcsm (18,198 posts)

6. It won't be long before...

...terrorists use them to shoot down airliners.

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Response to backwoodsbob (Original post)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 04:21 PM

holdencaufield (2,927 posts)

8. I lived -- and shot ...

... for many years in a country where owning a Daisy Red Rider BB Gun is as heavily regulated as owning a deer rifle or a shotgun. Once the urge to ban is indulged, it will never stop at just "reasonable" bans.

You can't ban just one ...

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 04:57 PM

Puha Ekapi (594 posts)

9. Exactly.

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 06:49 PM

Agnosticsherbet (11,619 posts)

11. Engaging in logical fallacy invalidates everything you say. See Slippery Slope...

http://www.ask.com/wiki/Slippery_slope

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #11)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:02 AM

beevul (12,194 posts)

16. The problem with that argument is...

The problem with that argument is...

In chronological order:

The national firearms act of 1934.

The gun control act of 1968.

The Hughes amendment.

The lautenberg amendment.

The brady bill.

Gun free school zones.

The original assault weapons ban.

And now, presently, people are screaming for more, and the ones doing the screaming (besides the ones that are screaming ban them all), are NEVER - and I do mean NEVER - willing to say where they'll stop.

Add to that, the unwillingness of most of them to denounce the "ban them all" crowd, and its not so much a logical falacy as it might seem to those not 100 percent in tune with the issue.

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Response to backwoodsbob (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 12:39 AM

AtheistCrusader (33,982 posts)

12. First air rifle capable of felling a deer, appeared in the US in 1785.

20 shot weapon. Girandoni Repeating rifle.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 03:16 AM

backwoodsbob (6,001 posts)

13. can it do this?

as a disclaimer I own this exact air rifle

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4046323/hog_hunting_video_showing_the_power_of_a_new_gamo_airgun/

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Response to backwoodsbob (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 03:48 AM

AtheistCrusader (33,982 posts)

14. The range isn't clear in that shot.

The Girandoni fired a .50-.67 caliber ball, with some rifling for spin, at useful pressures to kill a human, or a 250-350lb deer at 170 yards. For 20 shots.

That's a sub-100lb pig.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 11:53 PM

SeattleVet (5,290 posts)

21. I though the Girandoni was a .46 caliber ball repeater

with an effective range out to 150 yds (with a full air cylinder). At least, that's what I recall about the one that was carried by Lewis & Clark.

The rifle itself had 20 balls in a tubular 'magazine' (plus 1 in the chamber, for 21 shots without reloading), plus they carried spare air cylinders and the pumping equipment to recharge them.

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Response to SeattleVet (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:14 AM

AtheistCrusader (33,982 posts)

24. Calibers varied.

Same with early muskets and rifles of other types. The one from the L&C expedition was smaller than average, IIRC.

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Response to backwoodsbob (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 11:21 AM

Puha Ekapi (594 posts)

17. Even the most powerful....

air rifles made and sold today are what I'd consider very marginal at best in power for hunting large game. Yeah, it can be done, but there are much better options.

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Response to backwoodsbob (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 01:45 PM

Flyboy_451 (230 posts)

18. Not to be nit picky...

but a .25 caliber pellet at 2,000fps is not "damn near as powerful as a 25-06".

While it is very fast and much more powerful than the air rifles we knew as kids, it falls well short of true firearms. The heaviest pellet that I could find with a cursory search is 43 grains. Launching this pellet at 2,000fps yields about 380 lb/ft of energy. This is woefully short of a 120 grain bullet from a 25-06 at 3,000fps, yielding nearly 2,400 lb/ft of energy.

Has there been some rash of criminal activity with air rifles that I am not aware of? Do we really want to start restricting items because they may be used for some nefarious purpose? I'm thinking that our legislative energies could be focused on something a bit more productive.

JW

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Response to Flyboy_451 (Reply #18)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:10 AM

Puha Ekapi (594 posts)

22. Where did you...

...find a .25 air rifle that'll do 2000 fps? The Gamo referenced above shoots about 750 fps with a 21 grain pellet, and 1000 fps with a 14 grain pellet.

The 40 grainer at 2000 would put it in the .22 Magnum neighborhood. Useful for varmints but not large game for sure.

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Response to backwoodsbob (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:44 PM

oneshooter (8,613 posts)

19. In New Jersey you have to go to a FFL Dealer

and get a NCIS check to purchase a Daisey Red Ryder for your kid.

Here in Texas you just go to Wal-Mart.

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Response to backwoodsbob (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:13 PM

bobclark86 (1,415 posts)

20. Go read Sherlock Holmes...

man-killing air rifles are NOT new by any stretch of the imagination.

That said, you know how many people die a year from BB guns (actually, all non-powder weapons from the super-weak to the super-powerful)?

4

Source: HERE

That's less than 1/15 those killed by lightening. It's on par with being crushed by vending machines. Now, for the families of those killed (the majority children, whose parents should have been watching them or taken them away from unsafe kids), it is a tragedy. For the rest of the world, however, it's a microscopic statistic.

Don't we have bigger priorities than banning BB guns? If it takes a decade of mass shootings to talk about another AWB without an outspoken fear of losing any majority in Congress, how far down on the list should BB guns go?

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Response to backwoodsbob (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:12 AM

Nutsmustbecracked (4 posts)

23. We need to ban assault air rifles.

Anything over 500 fps is too much to be sold over the counter. It's only a matter of time before someone is seriously injured by our depraved gun culture.

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